WST -- Ill-conceived.
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2011-02-02 09:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Super's personal growth in power often occur both while working with others and alone.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
And the Incarnate system is a single-user's journey of personal power. It's not a team buff, save that by making you more powerful, it makes your team more survivable.
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Thanks for pointing this out. It's often overlooked.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Massively multiplayer means you have lots of people on at the same time in the same environment. It does not mean FORCED TEAMING.
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Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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Please excuse my ignorance and correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought being a rogue/vigilante meant you could join in a TF/SF on either side. Example, even though I'm a vigilante, I could still join an STF team, no?
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Because they are open to anyone with a character of the appropriate level.
If you want to run a STF, you have to be a hero. If you want to run an RSF, you have to be a villain. Currently, LGTF and ITF are the only thing in the game where your alignment doesn't matter at all. Hero, villain, vigilante, and rogue can all run them equally. [...] |
Main Character: Ice/Storm/Ice Controller (Justice, 1340 badges)
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Yes, that's right. And a very nifty feature it is, too.
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Originally Posted by flipside
Please excuse my ignorance and correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought being a rogue/vigilante meant you could join in a TF/SF on either side.
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
Well I'm not complaining! If it allows me to do the TF's that I've missed then I'll be one happy camper! As a soloer it always seems that unless I get a TF done in the week it comes out I wont be doing it on Pinnacle at least.
------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
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Thank you for confirming that. I had been going along that idea all week so I could side-hop for whichever task/strike force I found first. I just so happens I've gotten in all LRSF's all week and haven't ventured into a STF yet.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Yes, that's right. And a very nifty feature it is, too.
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Thanks again.
Main Character: Ice/Storm/Ice Controller (Justice, 1340 badges)
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Originally Posted by flipside
Please excuse my ignorance and correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought being a rogue/vigilante meant you could join in a TF/SF on either side. Example, even though I'm a vigilante, I could still join an STF team, no?
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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Yes, that's right. And a very nifty feature it is, too.
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I was referring more to the fact that Heroes and Villains can run an ITF or LGTF equally.
A Villain cannot run an STF, and a Hero cannot run an RSF. I included Vigilantes and Rogues in it because all FOUR alignments can run either of those two TFs, while (unless I'm mistaken) only 3 alignments can run the others, with the 2 extreme alignments excluded depending on which side it's on.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I think you completely missed my point. This isn't about how it affects me personally. I think the WST was a bad game management strategy. I think herding players into re-consuming the same content over and over is harmful to the high-level experience for all players. It's much better if they give us choices and let us decide what to do. The WST, as delivered, reduces the choices available to players in the game. It makes one zone difficult to play in (thankfully this time it's not a high population zone) and reduces the pool of players available to do other activities.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
So you don't really care if they destabilize the game. Just so long as your high-population server isn't too laggy...
... Your problem is the problem of ANY busy zone on a high population server. Do you gripe about lag on ship raids? Hami raids? ... Yes, because the devs are holding the Ultimate Nullifier to your head and FORCING you to run all those TFs all at once on all eligible Incarnate characters... ... The strike pack is an interim release while other content is ALSO made available to give players the things they've been clamoring for. You are given OPTIONS, and choose to see them as OBLIGATIONS. ... The problem, good sir, lies with you. |
I have a background in sociology, and I'm looking at this as an experiment in managing human behavior. Framed that way -- and in my opinion -- the WST is detrimental to the game.
The effect is has on me personally is just minor annoyance. In general, I don't post on these boards about minor annoyances. If I did, I'd swamp the forum.
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New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
But strangely enough though, hasnt it been proven that with too many options available that humans generally go for "what they know" as a default and become "scared" of the alternatives (even if they are easier/more beneficial to them"?
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It's also, as far as I can tell, a placeholder for the Incarnate Trials coming out in issue 20. |
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I think you completely missed my point. This isn't about how it affects me personally. I think the WST was a bad game management strategy. I think herding players into re-consuming the same content over and over is harmful to the high-level experience for all players. It's much better if they give us choices and let us decide what to do. The WST, as delivered, reduces the choices available to players in the game. It makes one zone difficult to play in (thankfully this time it's not a high population zone) and reduces the pool of players available to do other activities.
I have a background in sociology, and I'm looking at this as an experiment in managing human behavior. Framed that way -- and in my opinion -- the WST is detrimental to the game. The effect is has on me personally is just minor annoyance. In general, I don't post on these boards about minor annoyances. If I did, I'd swamp the forum. |
They had the Rare and Very Rare pieces ready (and probably have had for a while now), and instead of making us wait however long to get them, they gave us the ability to get them through existing content.
It would be a different story if the game had left all those TFs behind and made them no longer relevant to what people are doing now. But, last I checked, people were STILL running all those TFs on a regular basis, even BEFORE the Notice and Favor were added to them.
I saw LGTFs, ITFs, STFs, RSFs, and even a few of the signature TFs (Posi, Synapse, etc.) forming even before the rest of the Incarnate pieces were added to them. So it's not like people are being forced into something that no one ever does to get them. They just added another reward to something people do on a regular basis anyway.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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An interesting sociological question.|
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
But strangely enough though, hasnt it been proven that with too many options available that humans generally go for "what they know" as a default and become "scared" of the alternatives (even if they are easier/more beneficial to them"?
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Emile Durkheim proved that there is a 'sweet spot' betwixt anarchy and totalitarian order where human beings feel most comfortable. In particular he showed that people were more likely to commit suicide in either too-liberal, anarchic societies or in too-confining societies with strict social control.
If we extrapolate that into the society of a MMO, and redefine 'suicide' as 'cancelling one's account', we can see a similar mechanism at work. If a game has too much to do and no sensible reason behind any of it, then people will quit the game due to a lack of clear goals. But if a game has strict boundaries, is too 'grindy' before rewards are achieved, or arbitrarily limits player choice and behavior, then people will quit the game in frustration.
In any event, I'm sure that CoX is somewhere in the happy medium and we needn't worry too much about shifting the balance in one way or another. For the most part our devs know what they are doing. I was merely stating my opinion that the WST was a step in the wrong direction.
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New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
I find the sociological viewpoint here flawed.
First day? Cram packed with people doing WST.
Two days later? Business as usual. Sure, you see people asking for STF/LRSF on channels a bit more, but not to an obscene degree.
I have no idea what its like over the pond, but it really hasnt effected Union that bad.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Suggested? Yes. Proven? Not that I know of, not within any particular, applicable context and defined boundaries. Can people be scared of too many options? Of course. Once you have more options than you can feasibly even look through, you pick the first thing you like and go with that. How many is "too many," however, within this context?|
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
But strangely enough though, hasnt it been proven that with too many options available that humans generally go for "what they know" as a default and become "scared" of the alternatives (even if they are easier/more beneficial to them"?
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I've never seen people ask for "more options" phrased as such in situations where these options actually exist. In such situations, people tend to ask for SPECIFIC options. If we picked our costume editor as the most expansive, diverse system in City of Heroes, people rarely ask for "more costume pieces" without making any specifications as to exactly what costume pieces they want, and when they do ask for such, they tend to ask for costume pieces which are somehow absent from the game, in part or in whole. I have seen a few people suggest "just more costumes," but by and large people want specific things.
If you catch anyone asking for "more options," that's usually someone who feels he is in a position where has NO options whatsoever, or that the options he has are unacceptable. In such a position, there can be no talk of having "too many options."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Any game that has a large group of people in it will require a team up of some kind, whether a player wants to or not. To me asking for solo content in a MMO is like a quarterback going up to his coach and asking him to take the other players off the field just so he can take on the opposing team by himself.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Massively multiplayer means you have lots of people on at the same time in the same environment. It does not mean FORCED TEAMING.
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Paragon Unleashed Forums
Twitter: @Alpha_Ryvius
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1: Define "large". I've played tactical boardgames with more than 3 dozen other players (and several hundred units) on the board at the same time and there were no "teams".|
Originally Posted by Unknown_User
Any game that has a large group of people in it will require a team up of some kind, whether a player wants to or not. To me asking for solo content in a MMO is like a quarterback going up to his coach and asking him to take the other players off the field just so he can take on the opposing team by himself.
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2: I've played other MMOs where teaming was optional too.
3: Name me one time in this game it's ever REQUIRED teaming prior to now for personal power advancement.
Don't tell me TFs. TFs are not REQUIRED for advancement in the game (or at least not until recently).
Please try to come up with a better, believable justification.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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HamiOs.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
3: Name me one time in this game it's ever REQUIRED teaming prior to now for personal power advancement.
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The exception, being, that you are able to trade those. However, they do require a group to generate at some point. The inability to trade is a difference though, and not an insignificant one.
I am curious though about what other MMOs out there allow players to achieve all character advancement avenues without teaming. The only one I can think of is another super MMO, but even then that tends to require special builds doing content intended for teams solo
.However, even without other counter-examples, it's not really a sound logical argument [just because everyone else does it yada yada], but honestly I'm kind of curious about that.
[ edit / add ]
A-hah! I thought of another that actually compares pretty well.
Items of Power buffs
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Let's Dance!
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I guess dependent on the situation and the type of game being played I would define a large amount of players any where between 6 to 750,000 people, sounds like a nice even number. |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
1: Define "large". I've played tactical boardgames with more than 3 dozen other players (and several hundred units) on the board at the same time and there were no "teams".
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
2: I've played other MMOs where teaming was optional too.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
3: Name me one time in this game it's ever REQUIRED teaming prior to now for personal power advancement.
Don't tell me TFs. TFs are not REQUIRED for advancement in the game (or at least not until recently). Please try to come up with a better, believable justification. |
I feel that you and I aren't going to see eye to eye on topic. How about we agree that we disgree, you have your opinion on this matter, and I have mine. We acknowledge that, and go off on our merry seperate ways.
Paragon Unleashed Forums
Twitter: @Alpha_Ryvius
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But it is not REQUIRED.|
Originally Posted by LISAR
Super's personal growth in power often occur both while working with others and alone.
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Now I don't pretend to know that the current status quo is going continue forever. I don't know. A similar situation happened with GR, and the Science pack. Certain people had early access to content. And I can understand that and live with it.
It's just that gating personal advancement content behind mandatory teaming sets a really bad precedent.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Hami-Os can be bought off the market, and are not mandatory for advancement. Moreover, their basic benefits (or close) can be had via other means.|
Originally Posted by Unknown_User
Well Reiella brought up the Hami-O's and Items of Power, and that's also what I could think of for example in this game that require teaming in order to advance your character.
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IOPs are temp powers. Again, not mandatory for advancement.
The incarnate system is an advancement system.
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| I feel that you and I aren't going to see eye to eye on topic. How about we agree that we disgree, you have your opinion on this matter, and I have mine. We acknowledge that, and go off on our merry seperate ways. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Hami-Os are enhancements. Their basic benefits (if not their specific QUANTITY of enhancement) can be gotten other ways (See Invention Origin).|
Originally Posted by reiella
HamiOs.
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I am curious though about what other MMOs out there allow players to achieve all character advancement avenues without teaming. The only one I can think of is another super MMO, but even then that tends to require special builds doing content intended for teams solo .
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| However, even without other counter-examples, it's not really a sound logical argument [just because everyone else does it yada yada], but honestly I'm kind of curious about that. |
I will ask it another way. Please try for a cogent answer.
At what point in leveling from 1 to 50 is teaming REQUIRED in CoH?
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A-hah! I thought of another that actually compares pretty well. Items of Power buffs .
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Wow, I have seen so many of these arguments so many times over so many things. "I can't get such-and-such badge without teaming, no fair!" "I can't get so-en-so temp power without teaming, no fair!" "I can't get thingama-accolade without going into a PvP zone, and it's just SO unfair!!!"
No one ever promised you that you would be able to participate in 100% of the game's content exactly when you want and how you want. As has been pointed out, this is an MMORPG. It strikes me as the height of insanity to expect everything--EVERYthing!--to be accessible to everyone without ever needing to interact with another person in an MMORPG. It's practically the same thing as expecting to beat an FPS without ever pulling a trigger--it's part of the core gameplay!
Can you play the game without ever teaming? Sure. There are probably people out there who can beat Halo without ever shooting anything. But I don't see people clamoring for more "hand-to-hand gameplay," giving the developers hell and threatening to cancel accounts or return games because it doesn't suit their weird style of play.
Similarly, I think it's more than a bit arrogant to insist that everything the developers release must also cater to a style of play that is antithetical to what makes an MMORPG fun.
If you really are so antisocial that you cannot stand playing with other people for the duration of a task force now and then, then I hate to break it to you, but boy, did you ever pick the wrong genre of game to get wrapped up in. I suggest venturing out of your comfort zone a little and giving the MM aspect of the game a shot. Worst-case scenario, you hate it. Well, suck it up and do it anyway. In my opinion, it's pretty stupid to forego playing a game you like 97% of just because you hate that other 3% so much.
If you just can't get past it, though, then I really am sorry that the game doesn't suit your style of play. Still, it's not like the devs snuck a genre change on you under the radar--the game has always been marketed from day one as an MMORPG. Please stop trying to make the devs and other players feel like crap because you came here unreasonably expecting something else.
Last, but not least, for everyone who threatens, "I'm canceling my subscription!" ponder this. That's the surest way to get the devs to ignore you completely. After all, if you're gone, why the hell should anyone care what you think? If I were the devs, I'd wish you well and continue to focus on making the game better for the people who are left. And if you're so quick to leave because I created multi-player content for an MMORPG, I sure wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I'm not saying you can't disagree, but this whole "I'm leaving!" threat is completely meaningless. First of all, I don't believe you; I think you're just being petty and needlessly threatening. Second of all, even if you do leave, I'm convinced that you would have anyway over some other stupid quibble, and like I said, now that you're gone, your opinions are completely irrelevant.
Seriously. Yeesh.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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Completly agree.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
It's just that gating personal advancement content behind mandatory teaming sets a really bad precedent. |
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You are forgetting that up until now, there was no avenue of "power" that was closed to anyone because of playstyle. You could completely IO out a character in the most expensive of builds without having to run TF's at all. The fact that the Incarnate System requires running TF's to advance your character is a departure from that philosophy.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
If you really are so antisocial that you cannot stand playing with other people for the duration of a task force now and then, then I hate to break it to you, but boy, did you ever pick the wrong genre of game to get wrapped up in. I suggest venturing out of your comfort zone a little and giving the MM aspect of the game a shot. Worst-case scenario, you hate it. Well, suck it up and do it anyway. In my opinion, it's pretty stupid to forego playing a game you like 97% of just because you hate that other 3% so much.
If you just can't get past it, though, then I really am sorry that the game doesn't suit your style of play. Still, it's not like the devs snuck a genre change on you under the radar--the game has always been marketed from day one as an MMORPG. Please stop trying to make the devs and other players feel like crap because you came here unreasonably expecting something else. |
As for your comments about "sucking it up." Simply put: NO. This is a game. Why in the devil should I do something in a game that I do not enjoy? That's just silly. I "suck it up" and do things I don't want at work because I have to. I would prefer not to be faced with the same type of choices in my leisure time.
And what is with people flinging around all the insults? People ask for the Devs to give us more options and suddenly everyone that doesn't like the idea feels the need to insult them? Marvelous.
I team every single night. Last night I ran two TF's with my SG. For the first TF we had 4 players, for the second, we had 5. But to advance my Incarnate character I have to run TF's that require 8 people? Why is that, exactly? What makes needing 8 people better than needing 4 or 5? Nothing.
All I want is for the Devs to give us options. That's it, just options. Some people are extremely opposed to that though. It's amazing to me how determined to deny things to others people have become these days.
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I thought Sister Psyche's TF only needed 5 to start it?
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Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
But to advance my Incarnate character I have to run TF's that require 8 people?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
But hey maybe it will, along with the blood of the black stream, avians, customizable granite armor, redone VEAT arcs, and all those other things they were "investigating".
Sorry. You can't keep my sub on hopes and wishes. If they said "We're working on something." I sure wouldn't complain. It's the whole "eh, maybe, but this IS an MMo, so...."
But hey, I'm sure the devs don't need to keep subs.
Once i20 comes along and there's still no word or sign a solo option is coming, then I'd start to worry.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]