WST -- Ill-conceived.
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2011-02-02 09:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Ah, I see, well you're just as forced to level up every single one of your 24+ character slots to 50 as well, going through the same tired content. *shrug*|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Or, you know, to get the rare on more than one character.
They need to improve any door like this, period. |
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Originally Posted by Defenestrator
Does anyone remember when Croatoa was introduced? It was THE most packed zone in the game, and everyone took to the forums complaining about how "I'll never be allowed to get the Believer badge! I have to kill a super rare spawn not just once but TWICE and everyone on the server is trying to do the same thing! And how DARE YOU make this required for an Accolade!" Now think about how easy it is to get the Believer badge and how silly that statement really is. Yet it was all over these forums for at least a month.
The same type of thinking applies here. |
.I know what you mean though, but Believer isn't the best example for your case
.[ edit ]
Now, I'm doubting my memory on the 10. So discount that possibly
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Let's Dance!
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No, it's worse, much worse. That's my point.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I see the introduction of the WSTs as no better or worse than any other newly introduced feature.
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i19 came with new content and a new game mechanic. That was a draw for new players and an enticement for old and returning players to stay with the game.
i19.5 came with an extrapolation of a (now) old mechanic, and the necessity to grind old content to get it. This does not help retain or draw in players. It is an ill-conceived event that is not good for the health of the game. Some manager screwed up when they proposed and okayed this.
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| We'll have to adapt to it just like anything else. *shrugs* |
...
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I'm going to dissent and put my money on the former. I know several people (one, one of the smartest guys I know) who work for the government, and contrary to popular belief, they actually are people. Have you ever heard of Richard Feynman, who worked on the Manhattan Project? Read up on him, and you'll realize how smart and wickedly witty some government employees can be.|
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Yes, someone in the Government either has a sense of humor, or more likely, is woefully out of touch with life in general.
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I'm pretty sure that someone familiar enough with Wikileaks to form a task force about it would grasp the significance of the abbreviation "WTF."
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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Thank you for saying you're here to vent, rather than return to your topic and scream "NO NO NO NO NO I AM RIGHT!"|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Yeah, I know. I just felt the need to say something. In the history of this game I've spoken up several times about things that I felt were detrimental to it. I don't think anyone has ever listened, but I feel the need to sound off anyway.
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Happens too much these days.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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A strawman argument, and a bad one. I did not know the details about i19.5 until I got into the game to play it. Not everyone scours the forums for advance notice of a new issue, and even if I did there was not much detail to be had. Indeed, I expected i19.5 to have additional incarnate-level task forces in it, or some other form of new content. And with every issue I'm expecting them to bring out new or revamped power pools, because that game mechanic is totally FUBARed right now.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
You knew the rise in power was coming. You did. You have no reason to act surprised or be disappointed that old stuff isn't "challenging." Hell, this can even be fixed with a five minute (or less) trip to the nearest Fateweaver/Field Analyst.
... They will. Honestly, your opinions could have been spoken a week and a half ago and they'd apply. You knew the level shift was coming, you knew that the WST would be one hell of a cramped package on the first day, and you knew (and didn't recognize) that there would be double the rewards for the WST. |
As for adjustable difficulty and double merit rewards they mean almost nothing to me, and I'm not convinced they're good game design either. Adjustable difficulty is a smoke screen that lets the devs ignore balance. Doubling merits is a short term bribe to the players that's just going to accelerate the price inflation going on. Neither of them is good game management or design.
The developers of this game have a history of doing detrimental things and then fixing them later. (I offer in evidence ED, fixed by IOs much too late for most of the playerbase then.) I feel that they're doing the same thing here. I just wanted to say -- make it right as soon as possible, please.
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
I'm not sure how I feel about the WTF - and yes, this is what I intend to call it.
On the one hand, I consider it a good idea. Anything that gets people to do something else than endless reruns of "I will make you stronger than the gods themselves! I am Nictus!" can't be a bad thing. And giving an extra reward for a random (even if random it isn't) task each weak is a good idea to both shake things up a bit and add a bit more dynamics in what is otherwise a pretty static experience. Any time people are encouraged to do content they haven't done recently, that can't but be good for the game.
On the other hand, what happened was exactly what I thought would happen - everyone's rushing to do this one TF (and one SF) head over heel to the point where global channels are more or less clogged with that. While the intention may have been to get people to do different things, the practical results is that people will be grinding the same one thing ALL. DAMN. WEEK. And it's not even a TF I like, which may be colouring my opinion.
I'm not sure if the whole thing is because it's new, though that undoubtedly plays a part, or if it's just a monopoly means to an end that everyone wants and will want in the future, but the WTF doesn't feel as good in practice as I thought it would in theory.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yummy! That new flavor is lagalicious! Crashtastic even!|
Originally Posted by Lothic
To me this game has become like an ice cream store with (for the sake of argument) 19 flavors of ice cream. Yesterday the "store owners" just introduced a new flavor. Obviously everyone's going to crowd around the end of the store where the new flavor is kept and there will be shortages/problems with serving it until everyone gets used to dealing with it. But eventually it'll become just like all the other flavors: some people will like it, others won't. Time will move on and sooner or later the Devs will give us yet another new flavor to choose from.
I see the introduction of the WSTs as no better or worse than any other newly introduced feature. We'll have to adapt to it just like anything else. *shrugs* |
A new issue or feature always brings out more players, however I somewhat agree with the OP about focusing on one/two TF a week. Zone lag is ridiculous.
The devs should have also considered that not everyone wants to team or has the time to team and should have considered solo rewards instead of making that an after thought.
On the bright side... Welcome back speed runs!
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
Well, remember when the previous incarnate content was made available, and Oroborous was inundated with stutter lag for days? That's...that's all gone, isn't it? I expect this will decline too, once the great mass of pre-Incarnate 50s has run all the different WTFs once or twice.
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Or the infamous Committee to Re-Elect the President (CREEP). Which did, in fact, turn out to be creepy.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Exhibit A: Canada's since-renamed Conservative-Reform Alliance Party
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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I'll at least acknowledge that your "point" was a valid expression of your OPINION that I don't happen to agree with, or at the very least has not had enough time to be verified one way or the other yet. Your attempt to couch your opinion as a proven fact was simply less than acceptable to me at this point.
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
No, it's worse, much worse. That's my point.
Yeah, I know. I just felt the need to say something. In the history of this game I've spoken up several times about things that I felt were detrimental to it. I don't think anyone has ever listened, but I feel the need to sound off anyway. |
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It has always been 2. (10 is the number of times to beat whats-her-face on the Katie Hannon TF, so maybe that's why it's stuck with you.) My memory is faulty on them upping the spawn rate. Very possible, but I can't remember. |
Originally Posted by reiella
Ah, I see, well you're just as forced to level up every single one of your 24+ character slots to 50 as well, going through the same tired content. *shrug*
Believer initially required 10. It was nerfed down to two after those 'complaints'. She also had her spawn rate increased significantly [as well as fixing a bug with how she was spawning]. Used to be close to once or twice a day, with a 1-hit kill. But it's been so very long since then, I don't remember .I know what you mean though, but Believer isn't the best example for your case .[ edit ] Now, I'm doubting my memory on the 10. So discount that possibly . |
But currently people are all, "Oh, look. It's Sally! Meh!" And that was more to my point. Once people start getting some rares and ultra rares slotted, interest in the Strike Targets will wane.
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The bugs in this particular release were bad. But it's hard to claim that the lag for this release was any more or less significant than most any other new release I've seen.|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
Yummy! That new flavor is lagalicious! Crashtastic even!
A new issue or feature always brings out more players, however I somewhat agree with the OP about focusing on one/two TF a week. Zone lag is ridiculous. |
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Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
The devs should have also considered that not everyone wants to team or has the time to team and should have considered solo rewards instead of making that an after thought
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I'm not suggesting the design decision to make WSTs team-oriented was good or bad, but I will strongly suggest that the "soloers" of this game strongly overreacted to a situation that will likely, once again, be warped/twisted towards their unique playstyle in the long run.
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My MacBook says different, but I've learned since I19 to expect lag and crashes anytime the server is status is at least yellow. So it's par for the course as far as I'm concerned.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
The bugs in this particular release were bad. But it's hard to claim that the lag for this release was any more or less significant than most any other new release I've seen.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
The Devs have bent-over-backwards to make 98+% of this game solo-friendly and the one time they focus on a team-oriented feature people scream bloody murder like the Devs "never pander to us soloers".
I'm not suggesting the design decision to make WSTs team-oriented was good or bad, but I will strongly suggest that the "soloers" of this game strongly overreacted to a situation that will likely, once again, be warped/twisted towards their unique playstyle in the long run. |
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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So you expected i19.5 to be something completely different than it was ever intended or announced to be, and now you are blaming the people who make the game and arguing against those who are happy to play what they were told they were getting. |
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I did not know the details about i19.5 until I got into the game to play it. Not everyone scours the forums for advance notice of a new issue, and even if I did there was not much detail to be had. Indeed, I expected i19.5 to have additional incarnate-level task forces in it, or some other form of new content. And with every issue I'm expecting them to bring out new or revamped power pools, because that game mechanic is totally FUBARed right now.
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This was not an issue release.
Sermon
@sermon
One of Six, Cannibal 6
To be fair, some way to tell which the WTF is currently would not have gone amiss. I know it's the STF and RSF this week, but I only know this because other people told me, who only know because other people told them, who only know because apparently someone found out through trial and error.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Strike Target of the Week|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
To be fair, some way to tell which the WTF is currently would not have gone amiss. I know it's the STF and RSF this week, but I only know this because other people told me, who only know because other people told them, who only know because apparently someone found out through trial and error.
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You REALLY couldn't find that?
:/
It's even on the 19.5 update page.
(Psst. Next week it's the ITF.)
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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I think most people in game yesterday morning found out first through trial and error then passed it on to the player base. As usual the patch notes took a long time to come out, had to be 4 or more hours after the servers went live. I'm hoping the weekly WTF is announced sooner in the future or if we can get two weeks advanced notice like this week.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
To be fair, some way to tell which the WTF is currently would not have gone amiss. I know it's the STF and RSF this week, but I only know this because other people told me, who only know because other people told them, who only know because apparently someone found out through trial and error.
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Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to give that impression. I write with authority, but I'm only stating my opinion. We won't be able to tell the facts until years from now, when we'll be able to look back with 20/20 hindsight.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I'll at least acknowledge that your "point" was a valid expression of your OPINION that I don't happen to agree with, or at the very least has not had enough time to be verified one way or the other yet. Your attempt to couch your opinion as a proven fact was simply less than acceptable to me at this point.
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In my opinion, the WST/WTF is poor game management.
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New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
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No, I couldn't find that. The forums don't log in from within the game and last time I checked, patch notes did not exist. Am I to infer we'll get new patch notes each week? Should I follow that particular thread? What if the forums start crashing for me like they did back that day when I made a thread to complain about it?|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
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When I ask for a way to tell which is the current strike target, I infer that this is an in-game way, going off the fairly public information that many players don't come to the boards. You are correct, however, in that I should probably have specified. This doesn't change the fact that releasing a major addition to the game without actual in-game interface to support it is, to quote the thread "ill-conceived."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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They said that the idea is to make it a a pop-up message when you log in, just like Father Time or DJ Zero contacting you when events start.
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Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
I think most people in game yesterday morning found out first through trial and error then passed it on to the player base. As usual the patch notes took a long time to come out, had to be 4 or more hours after the servers went live. I'm hoping the weekly WTF is announced sooner in the future or if we can get two weeks advanced notice like this week.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I'm not sure. Look at Hami. I can't speak for every server, but on Virtue there is a Hami raid every day. It provides a reward (Hami-Os) that is better, for less effort, than any other content, so the players make it a point to schedule it at least once a day.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Well, remember when the previous incarnate content was made available, and Oroborous was inundated with stutter lag for days? That's...that's all gone, isn't it? I expect this will decline too, once the great mass of pre-Incarnate 50s has run all the different WTFs once or twice.
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The mission arc that unlocks incarnate content does not give a reward for doing it a second time. It faded in popularity once every character had run it once.
The WST/WTF won't fade in popularity like that; with double merit rewards and the Notice of the Well, it will be the most profitable thing to do. Powergamers will make it a point to run it once a day. That will draw population from other activities. The question is whether it'll supplant the daily Hami, or be added to it.
I can see the management decision at work here. They're giving long-time players a bribe to play a TF at least once a week, and thus to keep their accounts open. I just don't think it's wise to herd player behavior like that, because it hurts those who aren't in danger of quitting but who want to be part of a vibrant community. Retaining players with new content is a much better way to go.
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
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Content is, and I suspect will continue to be, the Incarnate system's Achilles' heel, if for no reason other than because it constitutes, or feels like it should, at least, a whole new field for which content has to be created out of whole cloth. It's not like adding more level 50 content where there's already level 50 content from previous Issues. Or is it?|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I can see the management decision at work here. They're giving long-time players a bribe to play a TF at least once a week, and thus to keep their accounts open. I just don't think it's wise to herd player behavior like that, because it hurts those who aren't in danger of quitting but who want to be part of a vibrant community. Retaining players with new content is a much better way to go.
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My fear for the system is that it's intended to be presented to us as "more level 50 content" and that Incarnates are and will be expected to subsist on existing content and not entirely on new content, as one may expect.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That's because it is a mission arc - they tend to be run-once things, because contacts don't keep giving you the same storyline over and over again |
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
The mission arc that unlocks incarnate content does not give a reward for doing it a second time. It faded in popularity once every character had run it once.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Someone mentioned that yesterday I can't recall how many times I typed /gmotd. The severs were up I'd say about 9AM EST I was off work so I was on then. No pop up message came up as of 3ish yesterday. I'd rather have the info before hand, but I probably won't be off any Tuesday's anytime soon so I guess it doesn't matter
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They said that the idea is to mkake it a a pop-up message when you log in, just like Father Time or DJ Zero contacting you when events start.
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Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
Well for what it's worth it looks like they've already got a Hotfix ready to go for the problems with the WST.
Hopefully this will at least eliminate the "buginess" factor from this situation.
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This topic was ill-conceived.
Of course the newest content is going to have a bunch of people clamoring to be a part of it.
Where to now?
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