Fix PVP for the Casual PVPer. What's your remedy?
By
Assailant,
Posted on: 2008-12-29 18:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Having given this careful thought, I've come to the following conclusion.
PvP can NEVER be "fixed" in this game. It doesn't matter what the devs do, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy, and will make damn sure everyone knows it.
Best course of action, roll back to i12 PvP so that hopefully the PvPers who left in a strop come back, and forget about trying to get more people in to it. It's just not going to happen.
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^ This.100% agree.
I think they actually really messed up the system in LK by forcing people to do Arena battles, because at least with Battleground/Arena gear you could have a choice of what you want to do. Now if you want any pvp gear at all you HAVE to do both Arena and Battleground matches. It is a poor tactic to draw people into the 'online sports' that blizzard are so badly trying to get us into.
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because at least with Battleground/Arena gear you could have a choice of what you want to do.
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You still do.There is pvp gear throught BG's of ilevel200 there is pure honor purchaseable items there is pieces of gear with arena rating and there are multiple ways to obtain this gear some even involving pve.
One thing's for sure - it's impossible to have PvP without some kind of trashtalk - but it's important that it's not taken from humorous into aggressive - that's when it will put most people off trying PvP.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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One thing's for sure - it's impossible to have PvP without some kind of trashtalk - but it's important that it's not taken from humorous into aggressive - that's when it will put most people off trying PvP.
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PvP without trashtalk is not pvp. Football without cursing is not football. I agree with the above post but most here want to see peaceful pvp which is [censored] impossible. Face it and move on.
Ahh i see, yes on checking now i see there is a set bought purely on Honor points! Good thing they changed that as it was a big mistake.
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How many builds do you know that can solo an AV?
3? ... 4?
The above will make pvp even more boring than it currently is, especially as insps heal percentage of health and the damage numbers don't add up to counteract that.
Fahie
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AV feeling, not AV 'soloing'. Whats heroic about the fact basicly anyone non-def based can be 1-2 shot by anything, it doesnt really feel you being a superhero isit?
Anyway, Casual pvp will never happen in CoH, not with the current system. By the time they finaly got something to make it interesting for the non-pvp'hardcore', its already that old people moving on anyway. (be it CO, or GW2, or Aion or whatever).
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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It seems to me that the casual players, those that *might* pvp occasionally for fun are put off by
1: Those with certain pvp powersets
2: Those with uber builds
3: Those with lots of practice
Dominating the zones.
I13 was trying to level out the playing field, which imho went horribly wrong.
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To be precise, the goal of the changes in I13 was to de-emphasise the first two of those items listed.
The third, assuming that practise brings skill, isn't as huge an issue. Anyone with a genuine interest in PvP (that includes 'casual' PvPers) should not be scared off by being beaten by player skill. Being beaten by a specialised niche build that saps fun (eg getting perma-dommed and being unable to do much of anything until you die) is far more likely to cause a prospective PvP player to not play.
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It seems to me that the casual players, those that *might* pvp occasionally for fun are put off by
1: Those with certain pvp powersets
2: Those with uber builds
3: Those with lots of practice
Dominating the zones.
I13 was trying to level out the playing field, which imho went horribly wrong.
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To be precise, the goal of the changes in I13 was to de-emphasise the first two of those items listed.
The third, assuming that practise brings skill, isn't as huge an issue. Anyone with a genuine interest in PvP (that includes 'casual' PvPers) should not be scared off by being beaten by player skill. Being beaten by a specialised niche build that saps fun (eg getting perma-dommed and being unable to do much of anything until you die) is far more likely to cause a prospective PvP player to not play.
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Perma anything is a design problem - if any power was meant to be perma, it'd be an autopower or toggle.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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To be precise, the goal of the changes in I13 was to de-emphasise the first two of those items listed.
The third, assuming that practise brings skill, isn't as huge an issue. Anyone with a genuine interest in PvP (that includes 'casual' PvPers) should not be scared off by being beaten by player skill. Being beaten by a specialised niche build that saps fun (eg getting perma-dommed and being unable to do much of anything until you die) is far more likely to cause a prospective PvP player to not play.
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I agree that perma-dom isn't much fun at all on the receiving end.
However, and once again only in my own personal experience, it feels like instead of addressing *specific* issues such as perma-dom, AS, Inferno and other "I-win-against-most" powers, ALL powersets have been hit with the balancing hammer, regardless of whether or not they need it.
Additionally, the thoughts and recommendations brought up on the boards pre I13 seem to have been ignored completely. I cannot claim issue with this personally since it was I13 that actually got me posting on the boards 
Balancing all the powersets to bring them all close to each other *may* attract some new pvpers to start with. However, once they get bored of click,mash,click,mash ... they aren't likely to hang around too long. I12 PVP was harsh, but it was varied.
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Perma anything is a design problem - if any power was meant to be perma, it'd be an autopower or toggle.
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Tricky one this. Perma-hasten for example is possible on some builds. Now, is it good that it's available on some builds with enough influence or bad?
In my opinion, it's good as it gives me something to play for.
However, I can see the point that if it was meant to be perma, it would be perma.
Perhaps recharge caps on game-breaking powers such as hasten, domination, rage etc?
Fahie
ps ( before someone shouts, I know inferno isn't a game breaker like perma-dom, but it is another example of a I12 power that could one-shot squishies )
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Well I have to disagree with some of what you said, Scarlet. In particular, I feel issue 13 is a step in the right direction.
For what its worth, this is what would tempt me:
1. Arena option "Disable invetion bonuses". That means I can have a cheap PvP second build without fartarsing about farmiing to be viable. This is a fairly straightforward intervention.
2. Phase Shift. (and other escape powers). Nerf them to the point of complete uselessness please.
3. Offensive Toggles. Make me laugh. Now you these get detoggled every 3 or 4 seconds it makes things like radiation infection useless. Supress them, dont detoggle.
4. Buff the effects of AoE powers by 50% stat.
5. Buff the effects of placable AoEs by 100%
6. PVP community attitude replacement.
There, that lot will help.
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Ok well thanks for the comments. I've got to say you're the first person to say that I'm aware of, that I13 is a good start.
I think your option 1 doesn't then mean you can be the best you can be. It's ok from a skill POV... but you reduce the build to SOs.
I've not experiened "escape toggles" as a huge thing (to my knowledge) but if it's in PVE, then shouldn't it be in PVP?
3) Agreed.
4 & 5) why? you've not explained that.
6) unworthy of comment. I think to be fair the PVP "community" have not been heard and so their "attitude" is fairly understandable. They pay their subs like everyone else and their percentage of teh game gets less love than most - and when it gets attention they feel it's negative, rather than beneficial.
I'd add to that that since I got into PVP in about I7, the whole thing's got worse from my own experience, not better until it's now dead on its feet.
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1 Zilch is lost by adding this option. Casual PvPers dont have time to grind for an uber build. The worst you can say about this option (I emphasise option) is that it dosent do nything.
2. It should be in PvP and PvE. Unfortunately, escape powers are almost tantamount to "I cannot loose" at present. I dont know how you should nerf them.. maybe 15 seconds duration and no travel powers whilst activated? Anyway, it seems they are going to be nerfed so this is a moot point.
3. Dont think anyone could disagree with this. Offensive toggles are useless now, and some sets rely on them.
4 / 5. Because AoE powers are terrible in pvp. Getting more than one enemy in an AoE power is difficult under most circumstances and easily avoidable. Perhaps superlarge AoEs like EMP or Novas could be excluded. AoEs are balanced around hitting 3+ enemies.
As for placables? well anyone can zip out of them, on top of being superhard to get more than one person. If you actually manage to get this onto an enemy it should bite far more than it does at present. 200% may be excessive for placables without a slow / -travel power (like Tar Patch), but something like disruption arrow or RoF is pretty laughable in PvP IMO.
6. Whilst the Forum PvP community is something im ambivilent about... they do very little to attract people to PVp from PvE for instance, they have generally refrained from the outright rudeness, arrogance, and all round horridness I have encountered in the zones. I have had the sum total of one freindly chat in a PvP zone ever. The best I hope for is silence or neutrality. However, the talk is generally entirely offputting.
I should probably have explicitly said that I was considering the PvP community actually online than the community. I shall remain silence about the PvP community online whose manner is variable. Suffice to say you are an exemplar to them, SS.
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Well when you go that will help no ends,
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Im not going. And my departure is unlikely to help, as I imagine you know. You may indeed recall a thread very similar to SS's I started on the PvP forum about 6 months ago with the express purpose of trying to work out how to attract PvE'ers into PvP. Please refer to that thread and some of the responses that garnered.
Also please note that whilst I suggested a PvP community (and Im talking in game not forums) attittude replacement, I didnt name anyone or ask them to leave like your statement did (i.e. to me).
If you wish to do a survey about entering a PvP zone with an unknown toon on global hide and see the kind of parley you get, that would be most interesting. My experiences have been most negative. Thats just my experience, which I throw out. Maybe I'm wrong *shrug*.
My personal solution would be for devs to abandom ship and commit no resources whatsoever to PvP. But thats not really constructive.
The problem goes deeper then just perm-dominations. It goes to the very root of the dominator design. A dominator is design to lock down a target, then move in to melee range for the kill. It is a good concept for PvE, but for PvP it is not so good. A perm-dominator can just keep the hold long enough to overcome almost anything.
So in PvP the dominator gets beefed up damage and the ability to de-toggle some offensive powers, instead of the lock down ability. Better for the target, worse for the dominator.
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1. Arena option "Disable invetion bonuses". That means I can have a cheap PvP second build without fartarsing about farmiing to be viable. This is a fairly straightforward intervention.
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Sorry but i will have to disagree here.I understand some people are furstrated but there is something really obvious.You simply CANNOT expect to be on same terms with a hardcore PvPer.I am not talking about nubs cause nubs can be killed even when they got a billion build and u are in simple SO's.Against a seasoned PvPers you cannot ask to be on par simply because they spend ALL their time perfecting their builds/skills.Its unreasonable to ask such a thing as it would be for me to ask all badgehunter titles to be reset on a monthly basis or weekly simply because i wanna badgehunt and be on par with other seasoned badgehunters.
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Its only an option. Im just saying its an option that might tract somecasual PvPers to PvP on a level playing feild. They can use their second build to create a cheap SO fuelled build.
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PVP community attitude replacement.
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Sorry but this really is out of place.I understand most PvE exclusive players keep a calm attitude and prefer to taunt each other in other ways but PvP is what it says.Player versus Player.The taunting and the trashtalking will always be part of it.Now of course i am all against breaking rules,calling names cussing etc in pvp zones.However the trashtalking is part of what gets the blood boiling in PvP and many times part of tactics to taunt your opponent to rush in mistakes.Wont change dont wanna see it change and if people are easily offended or have a weak heart stick to cookies baking and playing pokemon.There have been many PvE players i seen set foot in PvP zones and despite what goes on they know the drill keep calm and do their thing and hats off to them cause they get it.
And you know what?PvE community is JUST as bad.Maybe the bad boys in PvEers dont come out as easy due to the carebear nature of PvE but when they come out oh boy!So i think this "Hollier than you" attitude that some exhibit is kinda [censored] considering there is equal drama going PvE side and at least PvP side noone pretends to be a saint.
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Fair point. Im just saying the current PvP (in g ame, i should have added) attitude puts off causal PvPers. *shrug*. Again, if you want to attract PvErs to PvP you have to appeal to them. If you dont, fair enough, PvP zones will not swell, and PvE'ers wont loose anything. Perhaps PvPers wont either? but the thread is about how to attract PvErs to PvP. And a different attitude would help IMO.
Overall, sensible, considered post TG, I tip my hat to you, even. Kind of post its a pleasure to read even if you disagree with it.
Ref trashtalking in pvp btw;
There is a big difference between
"Right .. you were lucky! That's it, I'm gonna hunt you down and stomp you until you bleed"
and
"u n00b! i said no inspz! U haz no skillz rite! i is gonna dronez you all nite now!"
I am often guilty of the first, never guilty of the second.
Fahie
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Fair point. Im just saying the current PvP (in g ame, i should have added) attitude puts off causal PvPers. *shrug*. Again, if you want to attract PvErs to PvP you have to appeal to them. If you dont, fair enough, PvP zones will not swell, and PvE'ers wont loose anything. Perhaps PvPers wont either? but the thread is about how to attract PvErs to PvP. And a different attitude would help IMO.
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I can relate to what you are saying.Imo the best way to solve this problem would be to lockdown communication between heroes and villains.Works in other games would work in this too.Could of course allow faction chat in coop zones but no arena/broadcast/local channels common as well as tells in rest of zones.
Now there sir, is a suggestion.
As long as it was optional, it'd be a good idea, I think.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
it is optional isnt it? i thought there is an option to disable Villain Broadcast/Local? It may only be broadcast tho im not sure.
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It seems to me that the casual players, those that *might* pvp occasionally for fun are put off by
1: Those with certain pvp powersets
2: Those with uber builds
3: Those with lots of practice
Dominating the zones.
I13 was trying to level out the playing field, which imho went horribly wrong.
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To be precise, the goal of the changes in I13 was to de-emphasise the first two of those items listed.
The third, assuming that practise brings skill, isn't as huge an issue. Anyone with a genuine interest in PvP (that includes 'casual' PvPers) should not be scared off by being beaten by player skill. Being beaten by a specialised niche build that saps fun (eg getting perma-dommed and being unable to do much of anything until you die) is far more likely to cause a prospective PvP player to not play.
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I'm sorry GR, but regardless of what the i13 PvP balancing was for, it wasn't fair to implement it in the 1st place.
Point 1. Those with certain PvP powersets.
If a player wants to PvP and they decide to roll a toon specifically for PvP they are going to choose a set-up which is going to A) give them the highest chance of succeeding and B) suit their play style. They are not for example, going to roll an empathy defender and play it like a blaster. Just like in PvE if there was a tank and a scrapper, you wouldn't expect the scrapper to tank.
Also on a side note, powersets aren't anything. Take for exmaple, TG. He rolled a Assault Rifle blaster (cant remember the secondary). As a lot of you will know AR is primarily cone/AoE based. It consists of 1 sniper power, 2 ST powers, 3 short to medium ranged cone powers and 3 AoE powers. IMO the worst set to PvP with imaginable. Yet, TG still managed to gain the 400 rep Disrupter badge. Now if AR has the potential to reach that standard, please do not insult my intelligence to say that balance was needed because those who ventured into the PvP zones didn't have the "Ideal PvP" powersets.
Point 2. Those with Uber Builds.
Those who have (had) uber builds had to work for it, whether it was by farming or TF grinding. They still had to put the time and effort into acquiring the influence or that certain recipe drop they needed/wanted. Diminishing Returns is a joke. You say it was designed to balance PvP. And by god it leveled the playing field. Those who had spent the time and effort were no better off than those who went and bought SO enhancements. DR now meant IO's were pointless. And those who spent ages getting them basically got a kick in the nuts, along with the message of "haha" from those who just got it handed to them on a silver platter by a butler called Reginald. Yet you provided the answer to those who wanted that specific unique IO or set. You created the merit system. A spark of genious I must admit. The merit system had the potential to do several things.
1. Make it easier for everyone to kit out their builds the way they wanted them to be.
2. Reduce farming. It would be far more appealing to join a TF, gain the influence along the way, with the chance of drops still and then recieve those lovely shiny merits at the end. The only advantage PI farming has now is to PL a character quickly.
3. Increase the amount of player activity for things like TFs. Before this system was introduced it was a huge pain in the derierre to get a Positron TF together. Never in my life have I seen so many calls for Posi to be started when the merit system came out.
So all I can say is that if i13 was just the release of the additional content and the merit system, there would have been a better balance post i12 tha it is now. This ofc is from a PvP perspective. PvE doesn't interest me anymore because I have pretty much done it all and it's all the same. The only thing PvE needs now is a lot more decent content. I would give Cimerora as an example, but imo it was a huge let down. 1 TF (which is the only decent thing about it, at a stretch) and repeatable missions does not classify as good playable content in my book.
[u]Conclusion:[u]
Roll back to i12 PvP and promote the use of the merit system (e.g increase the amount of merits for story arcs etc) and I think you will find better balance than this game has had so far. If this happens then its a win for everyone.
(Also, those that don't like the trash talk over broadcast remove it from the window, takes 2 seconds and saves an awful lot of stress. And for those who find certain players childish/abusive in PvP zones, all I can say is that's what /ignore is best for. Simple yet effective.)
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It seems to me that the casual players, those that *might* pvp occasionally for fun are put off by
1: Those with certain pvp powersets
2: Those with uber builds
3: Those with lots of practice
Dominating the zones.
I13 was trying to level out the playing field, which imho went horribly wrong.
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To be precise, the goal of the changes in I13 was to de-emphasise the first two of those items listed.
The third, assuming that practise brings skill, isn't as huge an issue. Anyone with a genuine interest in PvP (that includes 'casual' PvPers) should not be scared off by being beaten by player skill. Being beaten by a specialised niche build that saps fun (eg getting perma-dommed and being unable to do much of anything until you die) is far more likely to cause a prospective PvP player to not play.
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Perma anything is a design problem - if any power was meant to be perma, it'd be an autopower or toggle.
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As SR scrappers have a click mez protection that only takes 2 recharge to make perma I'd think your statement is incorrect.
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
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WoW's casual play will never match up to CoH's so long as the population of WoW servers swaggers about in Raid gear crowing about the latest stunning item they got from some instance. Casual gamers cannot get this stuff, because they don't have an couple of hours to kill doing raids.
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Sadly the vast proportion of WoW isn't even an MMO IMO, you are actively discouraged from grouping, both by insanely low drop rates and losing XP in small teams. With no in game mechanic to balance out disparate teams (SK is the best game mechanic I have ever seen). Until you hit what ever the cap is this year and start gearing up its very hard to find a good team most of the time. CoH wins hands down over that IMO.
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It seems to me that the casual players, those that *might* pvp occasionally for fun are put off by
1: Those with certain pvp powersets
2: Those with uber builds
3: Those with lots of practice
Dominating the zones.
I13 was trying to level out the playing field, which imho went horribly wrong.
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To be precise, the goal of the changes in I13 was to de-emphasise the first two of those items listed.
The third, assuming that practise brings skill, isn't as huge an issue. Anyone with a genuine interest in PvP (that includes 'casual' PvPers) should not be scared off by being beaten by player skill. Being beaten by a specialised niche build that saps fun (eg getting perma-dommed and being unable to do much of anything until you die) is far more likely to cause a prospective PvP player to not play.
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Perma anything is a design problem - if any power was meant to be perma, it'd be an autopower or toggle.
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As SR scrappers have a click mez protection that only takes 2 recharge to make perma I'd think your statement is incorrect.
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There's an exception to most rules 
And as it only needs 2 recharges, then the devs would have been aware of it being easy to make into a perma power, and as they didn't change it, they must have been ok with it.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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It seems to me that the casual players, those that *might* pvp occasionally for fun are put off by
1: Those with certain pvp powersets
2: Those with uber builds
3: Those with lots of practice
Dominating the zones.
I13 was trying to level out the playing field, which imho went horribly wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be precise, the goal of the changes in I13 was to de-emphasise the first two of those items listed.
The third, assuming that practise brings skill, isn't as huge an issue. Anyone with a genuine interest in PvP (that includes 'casual' PvPers) should not be scared off by being beaten by player skill. Being beaten by a specialised niche build that saps fun (eg getting perma-dommed and being unable to do much of anything until you die) is far more likely to cause a prospective PvP player to not play.
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Perma anything is a design problem - if any power was meant to be perma, it'd be an autopower or toggle.
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As SR scrappers have a click mez protection that only takes 2 recharge to make perma I'd think your statement is incorrect.
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There's an exception to most rules
And as it only needs 2 recharges, then the devs would have been aware of it being easy to make into a perma power, and as they didn't change it, they must have been ok with it.
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So perma anything isn't a design problem, just certain things?
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
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Or, we could just go play WoW instead of trying to import it.
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Or we could just incorporate some good ideas from other games just like other games do incorporate ideas from this.
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Clearly, you've never seen a professional chess tournament.
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I have.Actually seen quite a few Kasparov matches but adrenaline aint exactly flowing.Excitement is something else but your heart rate aint exactly jumping.
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Well, actually, you're wrong. PvP is indeed a major feature in WoW, and it has a considerably greater following than in CoX, but it's still a minority sport compared to those who just go do PvE. More of the 'non-PvPers' probably do Battlegrounds, but then, you can just stand around with your brain in neutral and still get rewards there.
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And actually i am not wrong because PvP servers are quite a lot and of really healthy population plus you need recheck some things cause brain neutral doesnt cut it for PvP rewards in WoW.And anyway some rewards better than no rewards at all.
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The amount of effort put into PvP by Blizzard is related to their desire to push WoW as an e-Sport.
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The idea of an e-sport came long after pvp was developed.Plus the e-sport arguement comes from arena competition which kinda makes the arguement invalid considering Blizzard develops all aspects of PvP as much especially BG's which are not related to e-sport.
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People participate in BGs to get cheap epics.
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And again wrong considering a)BG epics are not as good in PvE due to different stats that focus around stamina and resilience.DPS in PvE drops through PvP gear so kinda void pvping to get cheap epics for pve.The arena solution was perfect to end the amount of people pvping afk.Plus well this season is even better.In the 2vs2 bracket in Blackout which i participate there are 5000 teams and that is a PvE server bracket.Thats hardly a falloff i would say.
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WoW is all about the Epics and the Bragging Rights. Take those away for most (and the rating restrictions will take them away for most) and the membership will drop away.
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Its all about rewards and thats how PvP is.And why not bragging rights.Thats how in all PvP games goes.Show me a PvP game that doesnt involve rewards and bragging rights.Except CoH.But then again no rewards is part of what led to this.
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Casual gamers cannot get this stuff, because they don't have an couple of hours to kill doing raids.
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Ok this is getting awfully a lot talking about wow.But its not like this anymore.You dont need a raid.5 people guild works just fine.You can fully ilevel 200 without ever stepping into a raid.The rewards from casual gameplay are just great as well.You dont need raid gear anymore to have a well rounded character.
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Dual-builds. Suggested multiple times by the PvP community. Now implemented.
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True but the way it was implemented wasnt great.Still i think it was a good thing and prolly one of the things that were needed.
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Result: complaints from everyone about having to fork out for two sets of fully setted IO enhancements.
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These complaints are quite valid imo.But thats just me.
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Conclusion: Never listen to players regarding what they want. They don't really know, and complain if you give them what they asked for.
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I would agree if we were talking about few people complaining while the rest are quite in sync with what devs delivered.But when 1000 accounts is the loss for the gain of 100 people trying out the new golden egg from the devs and ditch it after sometime then there is something really wrong.Dissing loyal player base even if its considered a minority (but a minority that owns double,triple,quadruple accounts) then something really really really wrong is happening.
I would still like to hear why the whole summary of the pvp community suggestions was ignored,why the pvp community wasnt allowed to test the mini games that supposingly were tested and not fun and most of all why after the fiasco in closed beta there wasnt a decision to backtrack and correct the situation.