Fix PVP for the Casual PVPer. What's your remedy?
By
Assailant,
Posted on: 2008-12-29 18:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
Won't happen.Ever.Mainly due to the fact that developers of this game wont admit they made a huge mistake.
[/ QUOTE ]
More to the point, it won't happen because the I12 and earlier PvP wasn't working. If CoH is even going to have PvP -- an NCSoft seems determined that it should -- something new is needed. They might end up scrapping all of the I13 PvP, but they won't go back to I12.
[ QUOTE ]
Please NO!PvP should be kept at all times totally separate from PvE.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which the system I suggested would do: a storyline would at some point branch into two separate branches: one PvE and one PvP, wholly separate from each other. The purpose is not to lure PvE-ers into the PvP zones, but to make the decision to go into PvP team-centric.
[ QUOTE ]
Imo individual skill when it comes to rewards should be counted in as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
That only works when the game is balanced on the individual player. If you balance on the team, you need to give rewards per team. Individual skill is then rewarded in as much as it is applied towards a team victory -- the goalie might not score goals, but that doesn't mean he isn't important for the team victory.
[ QUOTE ]
Player versus Player.The taunting and the trashtalking will always be part of it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Chess is player versus player too, yet I've never been trashtalked during a chess game. I find the nature of the trashtalk in CoH PvP more indicative of the playerbase than of the nature of the game.
[ QUOTE ]
And while the first part is totally correct the second part is totally inaccurate.WoW,Lineage,WAR top ranking MMO's all of them have PvP community as a major target in terms of sales.
[/ QUOTE ]
And even so the MMORPG PvP is insignificant compared to PvP in Real-time strategy and first-person-shooter games. (And I'm going to question WoW's PvP being a "major target in term of sales" -- from what I can see, the vast majority of WoW players are more or less casual PvE-ers in their late twenties and over.)
[ QUOTE ]
And this is the reason why you dont see new subs coming.Pve wise there is a saturation.Nothing really new offered that is not already done better than other games.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree -- the upcoming mission architect is an example of something new PvE wise; and CoH PvE has several aspects which individually are small, but taken together makes the PvE game both different and in many ways better than the competition's. For instance, no other MMORPG comes even near CoH when it comes to allow for casual play.
[ QUOTE ]
They are not the ones that would make PvP side of the game better but attracting more PvPers would.
[/ QUOTE ]
And clearly, the previous attempt at a PvP system failed to do so. That the people who enjoyed that form of PvP dislike the changes introduced in I13 is, to be blunt, irrelevant, as they're not the kind of PvPer that's going to make up a significant population.
[ QUOTE ]
I find the nature of the trashtalk in CoH PvP more indicative of the playerbase than of the nature of the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
While I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment, I'd just like to point out that:
a. Trashtalk in CoH is no worse than that which you'll find in any other MMO or online game featuring PvP.
b. You will never convince PvPers that it isn't required. The reasons why should be obvious to you and relate to that famous equation regarding Internet and Anonymity.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
a. Trashtalk in CoH is no worse than that which you'll find in any other MMO or online game featuring PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quite right. I should have said "the nature of trashtalk in MMORPGs," or even online video-games as a whole. (Well, I've found turn-based strategy games to be an exception as far as video games go, really, something I'll chalk down to a generally older playerbase.)
I think I'd put it down to the non-real-time communication mechanism rather than the age of the players. I've never found that age has much actual effect on yobbish behaviour.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Post deleted by GhostRaptor
[ QUOTE ]
That only works when the game is balanced on the individual player. If you balance on the team, you need to give rewards per team. Individual skill is then rewarded in as much as it is applied towards a team victory -- the goalie might not score goals, but that doesn't mean he isn't important for the team victory.
[/ QUOTE ]
While i agree that would require teaming to be always with same people etc etc etc.Plus if you team is not online you are doomed.An individual as well as team rating would open up way for both.Lets say you participate in a 5vs5 arena tournament and you win all time then your team rating is good.However you participate in the 2vs2 as well and not do that well you receive a lower rating.Prolly the rating between the two determines your individual rating and the rewarss you receive.
[ QUOTE ]
Chess is player versus player too, yet I've never been trashtalked during a chess game.
[/ QUOTE ]
And football is a player versus players as well and the trashtalking there is a whole new level. 
Chess aint that competitive and well doesnt get adrenaline rushing.You dont get to lose anything but a few pons while in MMO pvp annihilation = virtual death.Not that big of a deal but still worse than losing few pons.
[ QUOTE ]
And even so the MMORPG PvP is insignificant compared to PvP in Real-time strategy and first-person-shooter games. (And I'm going to question WoW's PvP being a "major target in term of sales" -- from what I can see, the vast majority of WoW players are more or less casual PvE-ers in their late twenties and over.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Its not as insignificant as you think really.GW,WOW,EVE tournaments are well received events and growing pretty fast.As for WoW well ok you are wrong.PvP is a major feature and has a major audience involving a huge portion of the player base.Which is obvious of the amount of development that goes into it the amount of PvP servers the amount of people participating in the arena ladder and BG's.
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree -- the upcoming mission architect is an example of something new PvE wise; and CoH PvE has several aspects which individually are small, but taken together makes the PvE game both different and in many ways better than the competition's. For instance, no other MMORPG comes even near CoH when it comes to allow for casual play.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well here is where we seem to disagree totally although i am fine with it.In terms of casual play most other games have really caught up with this.Simple example of WAR public quests and accessibility of pick up and play.WoW saw a major shift in terms of casual play as well.No more necessity of organised guilds,no more forcing to invest countless hours gaming.Pretty much seems they picked up exactly what CoH did and adopted it to their own game.Fast accessible gameplay with up to 30-40 min time span with very nice rewards as well as pick up and play attitude through variety of pug tools that work awsome.
Anyway i not wanna compare really PvE CoX has its own beauty and well seems to work for most.
[ QUOTE ]
And clearly, the previous attempt at a PvP system failed to do so.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes but the reason it failed is cause the PvP community wasnt listened to.Not once.Was ignored totally despite all the constant efforts to help steering PVP development towards the right direction.
[ QUOTE ]
PvP, in my opinion, does not include:
-see something flash by, being 80% HP hit while your oponent is already a 50-80ft away (at least).
-jumping around like crazy in a box that even popcorn would feel ashamed.
-from 1 moment to another standing in a pile of traps, your screen overflood with 'things' and 1 second later you are on the ground looking at the you-died-window.
-Without mez standing held, stunned, feared, whatever for 99% of the battle. (or either dead on the ground).
[/ QUOTE ]
Tiddlywinks then.
The whole point of CoX PvP was that it was stupidly fast. It's that factor which set it well above the other MMO PvP in the market now. It was a case of keep up or fall down.
And another point. I hear a lot of people moan about how fully kitted builds are so much better and that is the reason for winning. My answer to that is go talk to Max Powerz. He PvPs with a standard basic IO'd toon, with the odd proc here and there, and he would still beat at least 80% of those who took a shot at him.
[ QUOTE ]
To be honest, I don't think CoH can both satisfy its current PvE-heavy subscription-base and hardcore PvPers. To "fix" CoH in order to please hardcore PvPers strikes me as robbing Peter to pay Paul.
[/ QUOTE ]
All the devs had to do was leave the zones alone, and the PvP engine alone. Simple when you think about it. PvE'ers are unaffected by this so why half of you are moaning about it is beyond me.
PvP needs rewards. Simple as. Rewards means that both the "hardcore" are happy because they get to do what they pay for, and it will also increase the amount of people because there is extra added incentive for.
(Here comes the "Doesn't matter how much reward there is for PvP I still won't do it" comments. Regardless of how many people state that they wouldnt PvP for anything I can guarantee there will be players that would)
I would actually love to get 'into' pvp but its only Zonal pvp that offers any immersion imo....arena pvp is premeditated and totally unrealsitic so it just offers no excitment - its there soley because this is a trivial game etc.
Entering a zone invariably finds....no one atm so you dont hang around long (going to a pvp zone to fight npc's doesnt sit well with me) and theres really no way to get good at it for newbies like me....well thats my excuse anyways :P
I dont agree with the idea that Zonal pvp needs to be team based, the nature of the zones is far more impromtu and natural - you enter knowing that one side or another will likely outnumber the other and you should be encouraged to think that you can eneter and still have fun despite this.... the combat mechanism needs to respond to this by preventing a linear scaling applying to the effectivenes of players and teams in pvp..... of course if you outnumber your foes you should have an advantage but that shouldn't equate to one whole body or you generate an impossible scenrio for any fun encounters (Zerging needs to be made difficult to achieve). The alternate route to that is to use the queueing method (like WAR) to get roughly balanced teams togther, but with our population I just dont see that as possible.
Judging from the general opions on here and the US forums I13 seems to be a step backwards on many levels but most specifically in my case they appear to be pursuing a one to one balance that destroys the character of the differing AT's and makes pvp excessively dull. By all means cross balance specific classes but there is no way a defender should be going toe to toe with a brute, its illogical and destroys the nature of both classes. Well at least to my mind =/
Post deleted by GhostRaptor
Zhaan, Chakyra, Fiorina 161, Aeryn, Polly Nation, Dee Pression, Shazanne, Night Jester and too many more to mention.
Network Hell 47640
Valley of the Harpies 74519
Green and Pleasant Land 75966
Post deleted by GhostRaptor
.....errr trying to get back on topic
Actually on another point thats a blind alley is the thought that Pvp and PvE should be considered entirely seperate. If PvP was done right players should be unable to distinguish it from PvE. The real problem is excessively Dumb NPC's in pve.
Matters of attitude are at least as much an issue for the person that cannot handle it as those dishing it out, we have many filters so there is no real excuse for angry outburtsts or anything other than seeing one body go down and the other celebrating.
[ QUOTE ]
Prolly the rating between the two determines your individual rating and the rewarss you receive.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or, we could just go play WoW instead of trying to import it.
[ QUOTE ]
Chess aint that competitive and well doesnt get adrenaline rushing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly, you've never seen a professional chess tournament.
[ QUOTE ]
As for WoW well ok you are wrong.PvP is a major feature and has a major audience involving a huge portion of the player base.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, actually, you're wrong. PvP is indeed a major feature in WoW, and it has a considerably greater following than in CoX, but it's still a minority sport compared to those who just go do PvE. More of the 'non-PvPers' probably do Battlegrounds, but then, you can just stand around with your brain in neutral and still get rewards there.
[ QUOTE ]
Which is obvious of the amount of development that goes into it the amount of PvP servers the amount of people participating in the arena ladder and BG's.
[/ QUOTE ]
The amount of effort put into PvP by Blizzard is related to their desire to push WoW as an e-Sport. People participate in BGs to get cheap epics. I suspect the number of people on the arena ladders will fall off this season now that your personal and team ratings count for equipment purchase.
WoW is all about the Epics and the Bragging Rights. Take those away for most (and the rating restrictions will take them away for most) and the membership will drop away.
[ QUOTE ]
WoW saw a major shift in terms of casual play as well.No more necessity of organised guilds,no more forcing to invest countless hours gaming.Pretty much seems they picked up exactly what CoH did and adopted it to their own game.Fast accessible gameplay with up to 30-40 min time span with very nice rewards as well as pick up and play attitude through variety of pug tools that work awsome.
[/ QUOTE ]
WoW's casual play will never match up to CoH's so long as the population of WoW servers swaggers about in Raid gear crowing about the latest stunning item they got from some instance. Casual gamers cannot get this stuff, because they don't have an couple of hours to kill doing raids.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes but the reason it failed is cause the PvP community wasnt listened to.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dual-builds. Suggested multiple times by the PvP community. Now implemented.
Result: complaints from everyone about having to fork out for two sets of fully setted IO enhancements.
Conclusion: Never listen to players regarding what they want. They don't really know, and complain if you give them what they asked for.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
I would be really interested to see what ATs the PVPers who dont like the changes are.
It seems to me that people playing the squishier ATs like the changes as they live a little longer, but the tougher ATs dont as they can no longer one shot things.
[/ QUOTE ]
Cold Defender.
And the changes still suck @$$.
QR
Having given this careful thought, I've come to the following conclusion.
PvP can NEVER be "fixed" in this game. It doesn't matter what the devs do, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy, and will make damn sure everyone knows it.
Best course of action, roll back to i12 PvP so that hopefully the PvPers who left in a strop come back, and forget about trying to get more people in to it. It's just not going to happen.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
[ QUOTE ]
I would actually love to get 'into' pvp but its only Zonal pvp that offers any immersion imo....arena pvp is premeditated and totally unrealsitic so it just offers no excitment - its there soley because this is a trivial game etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
I feel like addressing that.
Zonal PvP in this game is a mess in backstory terms. Why can I attack anyone in Warburg, but not in any other PvP Zone? Oh, there's a very stupid reason given, but fundamentally it's because they wanted a FFA zone, and Bloody Bay (the logical one) was too low level.
OTOH, Arenas as arenas make no sense what so ever. They are a stupid idea. Why do they even exist blue-side?
If they had been set up as training simulators, Danger Rooms, then they'd make sense, but no, we have to come up with this spurious backstory about gladiatorial combat for a new age. It's dumb, and totally doesn't fit the rest of the story.
So, I'm afraid I disagree. Almost all the PvP seems, very much, to be enormously contrived, and considering that conflict between heroes and villains should be pretty much a given, making PvP seem contrived is quite an achievement.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In particular, I feel issue 13 is a step in the right direction.
[/ QUOTE ]
You must be the only one.
[/ QUOTE ]
In theory the changes were aimed at right direction. They just didnt do very good job at it. Complete change of pace and loss of invention bonuses. Lot of powers doing nothing, break frees doing nothing.. Powersets nerfed (bugged or not) in practise to point of uselessness (regen).. Naturally people feel powerless, get annoyed, and quit in anger.
Not to mention the changes didnt do very good job at balancing things imo. They just switched the unbalance to another direction.
[ QUOTE ]
Chess aint that competitive and well doesnt get adrenaline rushing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Competitive? Dont go there.
[ QUOTE ]
QR
Having given this careful thought, I've come to the following conclusion.
PvP can NEVER be "fixed" in this game. It doesn't matter what the devs do, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy, and will make damn sure everyone knows it.
Best course of action, roll back to i12 PvP so that hopefully the PvPers who left in a strop come back, and forget about trying to get more people in to it. It's just not going to happen.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT
This is a PvE-designed game, so that is true, but they should at least try to roll back to I12 and start afresh on the drawing board.
[ QUOTE ]
QR
Having given this careful thought, I've come to the following conclusion.
PvP can NEVER be "fixed" in this game. It doesn't matter what the devs do, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy, and will make damn sure everyone knows it.
Best course of action, roll back to i12 PvP so that hopefully the PvPers who left in a strop come back, and forget about trying to get more people in to it. It's just not going to happen.
[/ QUOTE ]
^This. No offense FFM but it didn't need that much thinking tbh
[ QUOTE ]
If they had been set up as training simulators, Danger Rooms, then they'd make sense, but no, we have to come up with this spurious backstory about gladiatorial combat for a new age. It's dumb, and totally doesn't fit the rest of the story.
[/ QUOTE ]
Arena's technically are "Danger/simulator rooms". Unless you are talking about these danger rooms having only NPCs in. If thats the case you may as well take your lvl 50 and practice in Atlas Park for Recluses Victory. I hear level 2 hellions are extremely tough 
Unless you can think of a way to implement human PvP player standard AI into these NPCs, what you state doesn't actually hold any ground.
Arena's are there for practice. No-one cares about the back story. I know I don't. I use them to improve they way I play and to have fun doing so, and I'm sure there are lots of other people who do too.
It seems to me that the casual players, those that *might* pvp occasionally for fun are put off by
1: Those with certain pvp powersets
2: Those with uber builds
3: Those with lots of practice
Dominating the zones.
I13 was trying to level out the playing field, which imho went horribly wrong.
What *could* have been an answer would have been introducing a level 10-15 pvp zone ( pre BB). At that level, it's very difficult to two-shot, perma-hold, -recharge *anyone* removing a lot of the frustration for new players.
Add in a little reward for participating and lots of people would have "tried" pvp early on and decided if it was right for them or their toon.
Those who enjoyed this mini low-level pvp may then have started wanting to investigate BB, then SC, all the time practising with their toon, and getting better.
I believe that part of the problem is that people jump straight into sc/wb/rv having never pvp'd before, then immediately fall foul of a expert pvpr who faceplants them 10 in a row.
The old adage "learn to walk before superjumping" may help :S
Fahie
[ QUOTE ]
And football is a player versus players as well and the trashtalking there is a whole new level.
[/ QUOTE ]
I love the low league team cup matches on BBC, the grounds are too small to have the pitch microphones far away from the crowd so you ALWAYS get some drunk fan shouting out some pretty foul stuff, and the crowd chants are just as bad!
[ QUOTE ]
PvP needs rewards. Simple as. Rewards means that both the "hardcore" are happy because they get to do what they pay for, and it will also increase the amount of people because there is extra added incentive for.
(Here comes the "Doesn't matter how much reward there is for PvP I still won't do it" comments. Regardless of how many people state that they wouldnt PvP for anything I can guarantee there will be players that would)
[/ QUOTE ]
So you wand players that have no interest in the PvP style of game play or in the PvP trash talk, to feel that they have to PvP in order to stay competitive in PvE?
They will only increase the hatred that some PvE players already have for PvPers.
I think it is the way WoW do things. With PvE players taking part in PvP zones to get last seasons arena epic gear or something like that. (Never played WoW only read a bit about it)
------------- below this line is a general response not a specific to one person ----------------
The only way to make PvP more popular is to make it fun for more players. And that means removing the elements they find un-fun. And I would bet that on the top of the list is getting swatted by seasoned players when they first try their hand in PvP, along with the trash talking. So basally the things current PvPers consider essential.
The end result is the same. With is properly why this argument pops up year after year in game after game. Nothing can be changed, and PvP will never be widely popular.
[ QUOTE ]
So you wand players that have no interest in the PvP style of game play or in the PvP trash talk, to feel that they have to PvP in order to stay competitive in PvE?
They will only increase the hatred that some PvE players already have for PvPers.
I think it is the way WoW do things. With PvE players taking part in PvP zones to get last seasons arena epic gear or something like that. (Never played WoW only read a bit about it)
[/ QUOTE ]
Afaik the new LK expension made a twist on the Season epics, but aside that they made it imho very balanced.
The season armor you needed to fight in arena battles, as 'newbie' you just wouldnt be able to stand there longer then 5 minutes before loosing yet another battle. Arena in GW is kinda the same, totaly different from 'casual' pvp.
But they made a great addition, battlegrounds. True, there are people that whine its a place only to farm stuff, but if you have a solid 30vs30 basin or valley you actualy need to work together pretty damn well. You cant really fly 100ft above them, bu/aim pop insp and drop down to take out 4-5 within seconds (unlike the few team battles i've seen in CoH). Going alone vs 4 players 99% is plain suicide (unlike a nova 4purple blaster).
But thats imho yet another problem, travel powers. In the major pvp of other games, you have a 3rd element of travel. If the group leaves a 'spot' open, they have to travel back. The fastest they can go is by mount, even then it will take a long time. But if you put a CoH character in a Valley, they travel from 1 to another side in less then 10 seconds.
Again, i would like to see devs put down several PvP-arena's with a trashload of temp buffs or debuffs, just to see wich one is 'accepted' by the public.
Cabal fixed the 1shot mather by giving people in TG (the battlemap) roughly 20.000 health (normaly have have 2000ish), this way you can get beaten the [censored] out of you but still fight back. (while duels pretty much are how CoH pvp is atm, 3-4sec max, 90% luck). So just for a test, why not put an arena with characters having 10 times their health? It would be more of a AV-feeling battle, high damage but also high HP to counter many aspects.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
[ QUOTE ]
So just for a test, why not put an arena with characters having 10 times their health? It would be more of a AV-feeling battle, high damage but also high HP to counter many aspects.
[/ QUOTE ]
How many builds do you know that can solo an AV?
3? ... 4?
The above will make pvp even more boring than it currently is, especially as insps heal percentage of health and the damage numbers don't add up to counteract that.
Fahie
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have you actually been into a pvp zone since i13, because they are empty, EMPTY as in no one there, at least before there was a few regulars, where are all these new people enjoying pvp you keep on about?
[/ QUOTE ]
The fire something or other that roasted me in Sirens at some random time of day last week suggests you're wrong. Various other posts on this thread suggest you're wrong.
Logically, if the Zones are empty, then you aren't in them, so you wouldn't know if anyone else was and so can't give an informed opinion.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok i concede if i aint there i cant see who is