The real difference between Trial and non-Trial Incarnate Advancement
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-11 09:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
We don't need Inventions. We don't need to be level 50. That's a non-point. People want these things, and a large number of them are going to strive for them.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Yes, we can use our Incarnate powers elsewhere. But if you're not doing incarnate designed content, you don't need them.
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| If you're a solo player in a massive multiplayer game, and some rewards are out of your reach because you choose not to involve yourself in that content, then I'm sorry. The fact that the devs even provided a way to obtain these rewards without participating in the content is a gift. |
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| This is all in my opinion, of course. I don't see a reason to change it. I haven't seen a compelling argument that it needs to be changed. As EvilGeko pointed out, anyone who doesn't like it has the burden of proof. |
To set expectations here, I am not worried about barriers to Incarnate progress for myself. I have access to a core of players who are already dominating this content. I have unlocked all four new slots on a character already, and have taken three of that character's slots to Very Rare, and the other to Rare, meaning I have both Incarnate shifts. I'm now ready to move on to another character, probably long before most people have unlocked all four slots on one character.
All that said, I still wish there was a way to make progress on the slots and shards that wasn't ridiculously slower, not because I don't want to team, but because I don't want to team all the time. I want to progress towards the new shiny, but I don't want to run Trials all day to do it. I want to do other stuff, too. And sure, technically I can do other stuff and make progress, but the rate of progress I make doing so is completely lost in the noise. It's so much slower that it's almost not even worth measuring.
I think it's notable that this is true on characters who are radically powerful. I would guess my level 50 characters are easily in the top 10% of solo performers for their AT and powersets. Despite this, the rate at which they earn any incarnate progress solo isn't just "slower" than what I earn on trials. It's so much slower that it's ignorable. It such a worse option that there is nothing that would compel me to chose it over running trials, since I have that option. If that's true for me, and my characters really are in the top 10% of performers, then 90% of the other people playing would find it even less compelling to do anything but run the new trials if they want to progress towards Incarnate abilities.
Whether I or anyone needs these abilities to play is just completely beside the point. I16's difficulty settings ensured that I can make good use of them on many characters whether I need them or not. The whole point of them being in the game is that they make our characters stronger, and stronger characters are, for me and many others, goals for their own sake. Giving us extremely narrow playstyle options for how to pursue such goals after seven years of extremely flexible choices was bound to chafe part of the player base. Some folks are being pretty darn obtuse about it, but I very much understand where at least some of them are coming from.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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So you have no powers on a plain, non-incarnate 50 that you don't need? You literally require every single power you have available at each level to beat your current missions?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Yes, we can use our Incarnate powers elsewhere. But if you're not doing incarnate designed content, you don't need them.
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You have a Warshade. Should your leveling have been cut off after you got Eclipse because you didn't need anything else? Do you keep every power icon on an open tray because you might need it at a moment's notice?
Asking why someone would want an additional power is bizarre.
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
See above.
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Well said.
There is nothing further to comment on.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Dechs (and others who have said this), we don't need them for Incarnate content either!|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Yes, we can use our Incarnate powers elsewhere. But if you're not doing incarnate designed content, you don't need them.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
If you're a solo player in a massive multiplayer game, and some rewards are out of your reach because you choose not to involve yourself in that content, then I'm sorry. The fact that the devs even provided a way to obtain these rewards without participating in the content is a gift.
This is all in my opinion, of course. I don't see a reason to change it. I haven't seen a compelling argument that it needs to be changed. As EvilGeko pointed out, anyone who doesn't like it has the burden of proof. |
Anyway, I don't have any strong personal opinions as it relates to my gaming, because I've enjoyed the trials, play extremely casually (unless and until I find the time and feel like playing extremely non-casually, which has been known to happen a blue moon here and there)...
However, I find Liquids post very interesting and... without any of this being talked about, it is not difficult to see how absurd the amount of time it would take outside of the Trials.
Right, whether it's a bad thing is completely subjective and, ultimately (obviously) up to the devs.
However, it's still something we can talk about without resorting to baseless questioning and such.
You don't need your nuke, why ever take it?
Why should we have powers of +5 levels when we exemp? The content below that level wasn't designed for those powers, therefore you don't need them and shouldn't have them.
If you don't agree with me, I'll bring up reasons why you're wrong.
Dat EEZ ALL SILLEEEEE
Even if we all agree that requiring 2.7 billion Corruscant Years is perfectly acceptable, it's still interesting to try and compare evidence to determine a nice estimate of how long it actually takes.
Also... in before the next derailment!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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You don't *need* a def capped Dark Armor tank either, but it sure as hell is fun to play. Same for throwing around Judgment nukes at Romans & Rikti.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Yes, we can use our Incarnate powers elsewhere. But if you're not doing incarnate designed content, you don't need them.
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An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
The thing that is sending me red-flags is that no developer actually *part* of the design process is willing to even try to defend this POS design paradigm. They know its garbage and that they are forcing people into grinding and they (for some unfathomable reason) don't *CARE*.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Why are you assuming that soloers have no need incarnate power? I'm sure there is quite a bit of solo content that one wouldn't want to do unless you had incarnate powers backing you up. Malta, Knives of Artemis, Carnies, etc.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I dunno what problems you're having with Lambda, but I've yet to fail more than one in about 15 runs.
Also, it's the only alternative for now. I have realistic expectations from the devs. They came up with these trials, they intend for more. They intend a soloer, who has no need for these powers, to not gain them quickly. They have succeeded. The trials are fun, I enjoy running them as many times as it takes because I enjoy the company of 15 (23) other friends. It's better than running ITFs ad naseum. |
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
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That was very well said. I will gladly sign my name to this.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
We don't need Inventions. We don't need to be level 50. That's a non-point. People want these things, and a large number of them are going to strive for them.
I simply don't agree. In brutal honesty, if they don't really want soloing one's way to this stuff to be viable, they simply shouldn't offer the option. Offering something that is, roughly based on what we're seeing discussed in this thread, 10 times less efficient is, in my opinion, going to insult people. I don't buy into the notion that offering people an alternative way to progress, no matter how unattractive is a feature worthy of note in any but the most literal of ways. Proof is impossible here, because this is not an objective matter. Asking for proof of such a subjective situation is tantamount to trying to dismiss the discussion, because no one will ever "prove" what they enjoy or hate. This topic is a convolution of game mechanics and play preferences. Basically, the people who don't share the same preferences as the unhappy people are trying to dismiss their opinions about how they like to play, or the goals they like to pursue when they do so. There are certainly playstyles that are so far outside the norm that low performance has to be expected. Soloing in this game has not been one of those for a very long time, if ever. To set expectations here, I am not worried about barriers to Incarnate progress for myself. I have access to a core of players who are already dominating this content. I have unlocked all four new slots on a character already, and have taken three of that character's slots to Very Rare, and the other to Rare, meaning I have both Incarnate shifts. I'm now ready to move on to another character, probably long before most people have unlocked all four slots on one character. All that said, I still wish there was a way to make progress on the slots and shards that wasn't ridiculously slower, not because I don't want to team, but because I don't want to team all the time. I want to progress towards the new shiny, but I don't want to run Trials all day to do it. I want to do other stuff, too. And sure, technically I can do other stuff and make progress, but the rate of progress I make doing so is completely lost in the noise. It's so much slower that it's almost not even worth measuring. I think it's notable that this is true on characters who are radically powerful. I would guess my level 50 characters are easily in the top 10% of solo performers for their AT and powersets. Despite this, the rate at which they earn any incarnate progress solo isn't just "slower" than what I earn on trials. It's so much slower that it's ignorable. It such a worse option that there is nothing that would compel me to chose it over running trials, since I have that option. If that's true for me, and my characters really are in the top 10% of performers, then 90% of the other people playing would find it even less compelling to do anything but run the new trials if they want to progress towards Incarnate abilities. Whether I or anyone needs these abilities to play is just completely beside the point. I16's difficulty settings ensured that I can make good use of them on many characters whether I need them or not. The whole point of them being in the game is that they make our characters stronger, and stronger characters are, for me and many others, goals for their own sake. Giving us extremely narrow playstyle options for how to pursue such goals after seven years of extremely flexible choices was bound to chafe part of the player base. Some folks are being pretty darn obtuse about it, but I very much understand where at least some of them are coming from. |
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Run non incarnate content with all five slots ultra-rared up and tell me that again. You can, but it's like bringing a Ferrari to a go cart race. I don't think the incarnate abilities were designed as the old content easy button.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
DanZero, If that were the case, then we wouldn't be able to use our Incarnate Powers elsewhere. Oh wait... we can. Sorry, but that argument holds no water. |
Like I said, feel free to use them for that. But if that's what you want to do, and you want to do it now, run the trials until you're satisfied and never run them again.
I hear a lot about 'the direction of this game' and how incarnate content is going to be so hard that regular players can't do it without getting the incarnate gear. Yes. That's what endgame is... welcome to MMOs.
For seven years this game has not had an endgame. Now, it has one. You either like it or don't. Do it or don't. You can't skip it and just get the rewards. Then it's not endgame.
Could they make some sort of super challenge mode for solos that drops threads and such? Yeah, sure. But it's the first real issue of incarnate stuff. Something had to come first.
Here's an idea.... make GMS and AVs have a chance to drop threads anywhere. Would that work for you? It's like the old endgame with new endgame rewards. Would still take slightly longer, but give a much more entertaining option.... Plus, small GM Murder squads with incarnate abilities would be cool.
I think I just talked myself in a circle...
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Or possibly they simply don't care to get involved in large arguments about it. I mean really, what do you expect them to say? I'm pretty sure that the trials as the primary method of advancement is WAI, after all a progression system is going to be based around a particular set of content. Now having more than 2 trials would be nice but development resources are limited, adding more trials would have meant cutting back on non-incarnate content (such as the two new TFs).|
Originally Posted by Futurias
The thing that is sending me red-flags is that no developer actually *part* of the design process is willing to even try to defend this POS design paradigm. They know its garbage and that they are forcing people into grinding and they (for some unfathomable reason) don't *CARE*.
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As for the solo route, I do think they screwed up there but I think the screw-up was in adding it at all (or at least adding it in the current state). The following is pure conjecture on my part but here goes. I think that the original plan for the Incarnate system was to have no solo path at all beyond the T2 Alpha (or possibly, up to T2 for all the slots but no T3s/T4s). When the WST was released the huge uproar about it changed the plans to include the need for a solo option. However developing an actual solo option would require a lot of developer resources which were not available in the time frame for inclusion in I20 (and indeed adding it in the future would require cutting back on other content). The solution was to add a "buy it" path for soloers but do so in a way that made it unattractive to people doing the trials. Hence we end up with the lol-costs for rare and very-rare components/boosts.
I think that was a poor choice on the part of the devs. Adding the current method is (IMHO) rather insulting to solo players. It basically implies that the devs don't care about giving them a solo path but at the same time want them to shut up about it. IMHO not having a solo path at all would have been... nicer. It would essentially say that the incarnate system is not for solo players rather than the current "sure you can solo the incarnate path" followed by maniacal laughter.
Now what if I were in charge of it? I think I would take a middle road. First add in a few repeatable story arcs or missions (of Mender Ramiel style difficulty) which either provide Incarnate XP or even unlock the slots outright (I don't mind the IXP thing but I also don't think it really adds anything to the system). Next change the shard to thread conversion rate a bit (say 10 shards for 20 threads once a day). Finally I'd remove the ability to craft rare/very rare components from shards/threads.
The idea would be to make it so that people who solo primarily or exclusively can get their slots opened much more easily (raiders get thier's unlocked essentially for free, I don't see why soloers should not). They can them get them slotted with T2 boosts in a moderately reasonable time frame (you'd need 320 shards which means it'll take some time but isn't completely unreasonable). Getting the T3 and T4 boosts however would require doing team content (either the WST for the Alpha or the Trials for the other slots).
Would that be unfair to soloers? Somewhat, after all it's capping their advancement below what non-soloers get. On the other hand the advancement they can get becomes a lot easier.
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Well said. Agreed.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
We don't need Inventions. We don't need to be level 50. That's a non-point. People want these things, and a large number of them are going to strive for them.
I simply don't agree. In brutal honesty, if they don't really want soloing one's way to this stuff to be viable, they simply shouldn't offer the option. Offering something that is, roughly based on what we're seeing discussed in this thread, 10 times less efficient is, in my opinion, going to insult people. I don't buy into the notion that offering people an alternative way to progress, no matter how unattractive is a feature worthy of note in any but the most literal of ways. Proof is impossible here, because this is not an objective matter. Asking for proof of such a subjective situation is tantamount to trying to dismiss the discussion, because no one will ever "prove" what they enjoy or hate. This topic is a convolution of game mechanics and play preferences. Basically, the people who don't share the same preferences as the unhappy people are trying to dismiss their opinions about how they like to play, or the goals they like to pursue when they do so. There are certainly playstyles that are so far outside the norm that low performance has to be expected. Soloing in this game has not been one of those for a very long time, if ever. To set expectations here, I am not worried about barriers to Incarnate progress for myself. I have access to a core of players who are already dominating this content. I have unlocked all four new slots on a character already, and have taken three of that character's slots to Very Rare, and the other to Rare, meaning I have both Incarnate shifts. I'm now ready to move on to another character, probably long before most people have unlocked all four slots on one character. All that said, I still wish there was a way to make progress on the slots and shards that wasn't ridiculously slower, not because I don't want to team, but because I don't want to team all the time. I want to progress towards the new shiny, but I don't want to run Trials all day to do it. I want to do other stuff, too. And sure, technically I can do other stuff and make progress, but the rate of progress I make doing so is completely lost in the noise. It's so much slower that it's almost not even worth measuring. I think it's notable that this is true on characters who are radically powerful. I would guess my level 50 characters are easily in the top 10% of solo performers for their AT and powersets. Despite this, the rate at which they earn any incarnate progress solo isn't just "slower" than what I earn on trials. It's so much slower that it's ignorable. It such a worse option that there is nothing that would compel me to chose it over running trials, since I have that option. If that's true for me, and my characters really are in the top 10% of performers, then 90% of the other people playing would find it even less compelling to do anything but run the new trials if they want to progress towards Incarnate abilities. Whether I or anyone needs these abilities to play is just completely beside the point. I16's difficulty settings ensured that I can make good use of them on many characters whether I need them or not. The whole point of them being in the game is that they make our characters stronger, and stronger characters are, for me and many others, goals for their own sake. Giving us extremely narrow playstyle options for how to pursue such goals after seven years of extremely flexible choices was bound to chafe part of the player base. Some folks are being pretty darn obtuse about it, but I very much understand where at least some of them are coming from. |
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Ah, so we've boiled it down to "You technically don't need them so it's okay if they're completely unattainable."
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Yes, we can use our Incarnate powers elsewhere. But if you're not doing incarnate designed content, you don't need them.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I'm really, really tired of hearing that not wanting to team is some sort of character flaw.
There are several powers in this game that give me crippling migraines. I don't play those powersets, but a lot of other people do. If I'm anywhere near them, I have to leave the area immediately if I want to function as a human being for the next two days.
Teaming is not an option for me.
Apparently, that makes me subhuman and unworthy of advancing my characters.
A redname would probably make a very careful post about how some people have some "concerns", but urging them to give the system a chance to work itself out, and maybe say a few more things. And then ten other people would jump on the post and say "no, you're wrong" (don't know what you're talking about, etc), with various justifications, about half of which would boil down to "because you're wrong."
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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No, the game selects me out of this content. I joined a Lambda last night and the game crashed 7 times before I finally quit in disgust. I think I got two threads for my trouble.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The hardcore soloist self-selects themselves out of this content.
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Solo I rarely crash.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Except they're not completely unattainable.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Ah, so we've boiled it down to "You technically don't need them so it's okay if they're completely unattainable."
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But it would be ok if they were.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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They might as will be with the calculations already shown in this thread. It's effin' ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Except they're not completely unattainable.
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Personally, I never asked for end game at all. Am I allowed to complain about it now?
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Originally Posted by Acemace
CoH has no end game!!
 +end game added ..not the endgame I want!!  |
What is the problem with these things being the reward for running certain content?
If I want the Task Force Commander accolade on a character, I'm just going to go run the damn TFs instead of complaining on the forums that there's no solo option to get it.
To me it is very simple: The Incarnate powers are the rewards for running this content.
The devs could very well have not given us a solo option at all, and it would be just fine. They didn't give us a solo option for TFC, or the Hami raid, or the ship raid. They gave us a solo option for this because they were feeling nice (and probably to shut people up too). They were under no obligation whatsoever to do so.
This thread, and others like it, comes off very much as "I want the reward for doing this content, but I don't want to actually do the content."
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Arcanaville has questioned those "calculations." I don't believe them either.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
They might as will be with the calculations already shown in this thread. It's effin' ridiculous.
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Show me some real evidence. Then we'll talk.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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While your post was very insightful, might I ask, if a person is so emotionally fragile as to be insulted over a game design decision, why should any care about them any in terms of designing said game.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I simply don't agree. In brutal honesty, if they don't really want soloing one's way to this stuff to be viable, they simply shouldn't offer the option. Offering something that is, roughly based on what we're seeing discussed in this thread, 10 times less efficient is, in my opinion, going to insult people. I don't buy into the notion that offering people an alternative way to progress, no matter how unattractive is a feature worthy of note in any but the most literal of ways.
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The peeps that want to be insulted and mad will ALWAYS find a way to be insulted and mad. I say ignore 'em.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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I've got some pretty strong feelings about the Incarnate system but I've pretty much given up sharing them on the forums.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
Has anyone else noticed that the "lrn2team" crowd are kind of dismissive and douchey 90%* of the time?
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@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
I find the OP interesting. The usual argument that went on since then, not so much. So, going to ignore everything save for the first post. Here's my "data" (very limited sample for trials, obviously - that said, I would argue the trials themselves should only get easier as people get more and more incarnate powers, albeit it might take longer to form teams).
In 13 trials :
2 rare
8 uncommon
4 commons
2 emp merits
55 astral merits
42 threads
Each trial took about half a hour, give or take, including the time needed to form or join a league.
In TFs, I average about 3.8 shards (2.8 + the common component breakdown) for half a hour - again, including the time needed to form or join a team.
In aggressive solo play on x8, it can vary a lot based on the AT. My SS/Fire/Soul brute is averaging 17.7 shards per hour, my ill/therm/psi controller 2.4 shards per hour... Assuming I'd play for a hour before getting bored. Such a scenario is unlikely, I like tabbing during loading times to read the interwebz and so on. I'd divide these rates by two, and that's being conservative. So, 8.85 shards per hour for the brute, my fastest character.
Now for me... And I stress that I'm only speaking for my very own personal situation before a horde of rabid fanboys throw their T4 judgement at me... It seems fairly obvious the iTrials are faster by far.
Even using the worst conversion rate (breaking down everything) for threads compared to the best conversion rate (10:10 every 20hours) for shards, I'm getting :
2 rare (= 20 threads each?) = 40 (?)
8 uncommon (= 9 threads each) = 72
4 commons (= 3 threads each?) = 12 (?)
2 emp merits (= 20 threads each) = 40
55 astral merits (= 4 threads each) = 220
42 threads
416 threads in 13 trials
= 32 threads in half a hour
= 64 threads per hour
Using my fastest earning method for shards (solo SS/Fire brute)
64/8.85 = 7.23
Comparing my absolute worst case scenario with iTrials to my absolute best case scenario with shards, I'm still going seven times faster doing the iTrials.
More realistically, assuming I use the components and run TFs without playing a specific character (still going to use a 10:10 shard/thread conversion).
2 rares = 680 threads
8 uncommons = 460 threads
4 commons = 80 threads
2 emp merits = 40 threads
55 astral merits = 220 threads
42 threads
1522 threads in 13 trials
= 117 threads in half a hour
= 234 threads per hour
234/7.6 (3.8 in half a hour) = 30.78
Going thirty times faster in iTrials in what, for me personally, is a reasonably accurate scenario (and I believe I'm still being nice to the shard side, as I'm actually going to save my emp merits for a very rare).
trials are pretty easy now that more people know the strats that don't in the trials and people generally have a few more incarnate abilities than before to make it pretty easy. although tbh, i haven't used the LFG tool in a while because it makes teams that barely meet the minimum number required/are too small and doesnt fill them back up (although i had a lambda trial we did start to finish with 9 people, when it got knocked down to 7 it was a loss). gg usin' global channels/hanging out in RWZ for a premade (at least then it'll have like 24 ppl)
as far as "takes too long solo", hate to be one of those ppl but this level of incarnate stuff obviously isnt meant to be done solo. the fact that if you really try you can KIND OF get this done solo in eighty years is probably off. i mean, yeah if you convert a billion shards to threads you can do it but my PoV on it is that the shard -> thread conversion is meant as a supplement to actually runnin' the trials and/or still getting a little bit of progress of helpin someone with a TF or something.
shoot i only know ONE person ingame who is getting put off by this but hes been playing for like three years and his main still hasnt hit 50 (with some help from me he finally hit 45 lol)
Folding@Home
Photoshop doesn't make a good artist.
It's a gift? Sweet jeebus, that line is nuts.