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For handling big groups, you should probably rule out fiery aura and Energy Aura. They're both super squishy.|
Originally Posted by Olympus_NA
As the title says I have no idea which secondary I should take for my Brute. I will only be playing with another friend so there will never be teams, we will be duoing missions together. Which secondary is good for this sort of thing? Right now I'm thinking between Shield Defense/Invulnerability/Energy Armor/Willpower/Fiery Aura/Super Reflexes
I want to be able to handle big groups with high levels when the toon is a higher level. |
Shield defense will give you the best damage output of the rest of those sets, and with some INF spent on IO sets, you can be softcapped and pretty much untouchable.
Invulnerability is hard as nails and very tanky. Moreso than Shield, but without that extra AOE attack.
Willpower is roughly as survivable as Invulnerability, but doesn't have the same "alpha soaking" capability.
Super reflexes would work, and the Recharge bonus from quickness will help with KM's unique mechanic, but there's no particular synergy there. It is, however, the easiest Brute set to softcap defense to get you into those big spawns sooner on in your career.
I'm having a good time with KM/SR. 
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
It really all depends on your budget. With a high budget any set will be able to handle large groups (except maybe fire, but even then it will kill things fast enough to work), so then it really comes down to how fast you want that large group to die, and in that respect fire and shield take the cake. Invulnerability is the most survivable (and I would say followed by SR) on a high budget and on a low budget I would definitely vote for SR and Willpower for being able to handle large groups.
My mate built a decent KM/INV for about a bill, and it has perma Dull pain, really nice toon.
I went for KM/SD great damage but squishy till soft capped.
@Effy
Effy On Hot Sauce Fire/Cold Corr
Effy On Hot Chilli Fire/Dark Corr
Effy On Heat FM/SD Before FoTM
Effy Unleashed DP/EN Blaster 1st 50 @ Union
I have a KM/FA brute up to 16 and he's been quite squishy. My expectation was that Power Siphon and Fury would complement each other, but PS isn't up enough yet for it to have anywhere near the impact fury does.
We'll see how he levels but as of now I'm expecting that he wont be a force majeure until fully IOed at 50. At that point I expect he'll be a pretty solid killing machine, but probably not up to some of the major TFs.
Unless you are in a position where being squishy is fine (like major farming or always team with an FF defender) I'd go with a different secondary.
Zaphod's just this guy, you know.
Simply due to the way power siphon works, I'd suggest a scrapper over a brute, but that's your own choice. For a goo secondary to pair with it on a brute, I'd go with SR or Inv. SR because as mentioned, it can cap defense pretty easily, and it has a +recharge power to help you use power siphon more often, as well as make burst come up quicker to help with KD mitigation. Inv will work for you since it's hard as nails, and because the large groups you mentioned will help it out with invincibility. That will give you good +tohit and higher defense when you really need them. On top of that, the layered protection from invuln makes the -dam a bit more useful from KM.
I enjoyed KM/Regen scrapper during Test.
Been doing KM/EA brute and its been fun thematically/visually, but far more difficult than regen was. Been thinking of starting up the scrapper again too.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
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Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
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Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
Simply due to the way power siphon works, I'd suggest a scrapper over a brute, but that's your own choice. For a goo secondary to pair with it on a brute, I'd go with SR or Inv. SR because as mentioned, it can cap defense pretty easily, and it has a +recharge power to help you use power siphon more often, as well as make burst come up quicker to help with KD mitigation. Inv will work for you since it's hard as nails, and because the large groups you mentioned will help it out with invincibility. That will give you good +tohit and higher defense when you really need them. On top of that, the layered protection from invuln makes the -dam a bit more useful from KM.
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Kinetic Melee set is really built for a Scrapper. It can be crammed onto a Brute but it does not fit well. If you are not trying for anything in particular, and are having fun, then enjoy. Anything but Willpower, cause your knockback will take people out of your healing aura. Really consider a Scrapper for KM though, cause that is where the set picks up out of the water and hydrofoils.
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It works just as well on a Brute, thank you very much.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Kinetic Melee set is really built for a Scrapper. It can be crammed onto a Brute but it does not fit well. If you are not trying for anything in particular, and are having fun, then enjoy. Anything but Willpower, cause your knockback will take people out of your healing aura. Really consider a Scrapper for KM though, cause that is where the set picks up out of the water and hydrofoils.
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KM/Willpower, KM/Invul, and KM/Electric would all be solid choices so long as you skip Repulsing Torrent. Good mitigation to help with your defenses, super-fun and super-resilient sets.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
It works just as well on a Brute, thank you very much.
KM/Willpower, KM/Invul, and KM/Electric would all be solid choices so long as you skip Repulsing Torrent. Good mitigation to help with your defenses, super-fun and super-resilient sets. |
I may need to test it more Nalrok, but take a good look at the tier 9 on Scrappers. It redefines the damage push on the set. Unless I am reading it wrong that way tips the damage dealing capabilities of this set towards Scrappers.
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I'm well aware of the crit bonus; sure, the set may be more appealing to Stalkers/Scrappers but I sure don't have a damage problem on my KM/Invul Brute. He hits like a truck and doesn't die.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I may need to test it more Nalrok, but take a good look at the tier 9 on Scrappers. It redefines the damage push on the set. Unless I am reading it wrong that way tips the damage dealing capabilities of this set towards Scrappers.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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What is it about KM, in your opinion, that makes it more suitable on a scrapper than a brute or a tanker?|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Kinetic Melee set is really built for a Scrapper. It can be crammed onto a Brute but it does not fit well. If you are not trying for anything in particular, and are having fun, then enjoy. Anything but Willpower, cause your knockback will take people out of your healing aura. Really consider a Scrapper for KM though, cause that is where the set picks up out of the water and hydrofoils.
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Also, repulsing torrent is generally skipped, and none of the other powers do any KB, just KD.
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1) Concentrated Strike is a slow, but incredibly devastating attack that can knock out most opponents, leaving them Disoriented. Due to the exhausting nature of Concentrated Strike, recharge time is very long. Concentrated Strike Criticals (for Scrappers) do not result in extra damage, instead it instantly recharges the Power Siphon/Build Up power. |
Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
What is it about KM, in your opinion, that makes it more suitable on a scrapper than a brute or a tanker?
Also, repulsing torrent is generally skipped, and none of the other powers do any KB, just KD. |
2) KM Build Up greatly increases the amount of damage you deal for a few seconds, as well as slightly increasing your chance to hit.
3) KM Build up is a truly different type of build up power IMO. It takes your next 5 KM attacks, and keeps increasing your damage bonus for each one of those. This is the defining power in KM, IMO. For the Scrapper set to forgo the usual %Crit for the tier 9 and give you this again, WOW! Someone had fun writing this set up. Hats off to Scrappers for getting this in i19. All Brutes got was a hacked FURY system.
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I don't think that's a good way to look at it. Power Siphon is sort of like Soul Drain, with the damage buffs being applied over the course of a few attacks rather than one AoE.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
1) Concentrated Strike is a slow, but incredibly devastating attack that can knock out most opponents, leaving them Disoriented. Due to the exhausting nature of Concentrated Strike, recharge time is very long. Concentrated Strike Criticals (for Scrappers) do not result in extra damage, instead it instantly recharges the Power Siphon/Build Up power.
2) KM Build Up greatly increases the amount of damage you deal for a few seconds, as well as slightly increasing your chance to hit. 3) KM Build up is a truly different type of build up power IMO. It takes your next 5 KM attacks, and keeps increasing your damage bonus for each one of those. This is the defining power in KM, IMO. For the Scrapper set to forgo the usual %Crit for the tier 9 and give you this again, WOW! Someone had fun writing this set up. Hats off to Scrappers for getting this in i19. All Brutes got was a hacked FURY system. |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
I went with Willpower because I wanted to leverage the extra endurance capabilities of Stamina and Quick Recovery. I will utilize Crushing Impacts and the LoTG+ recharge IO's to lower the recharge of Power Siphon. I dont see myself worrying about my health bar by the time my build is done. I will be able to constantly attack without wearing myself out. Thats why I called him Eveready.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I don't think that's a good way to look at it. Power Siphon is sort of like Soul Drain, with the damage buffs being applied over the course of a few attacks rather than one AoE.
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Yeah, that is what I meant Nalrok. I did not say it very well. I sorta just cut and pasted Paragon Wiki and added a sentence. Basically, as I understand it, you hit the Buff in KM, just like in every other Scrapper Primary. Normally these buff you for like 10-15 secs, not sure, I do not Scrap much. But with KM they did it different. For each KM attack after you hit buff, you get a damage boost, which lasts like 20 seconds, so for 10 seconds, up to 5 attacks, you are building power, then you are doing greatly increased damage for 20 seconds. That is why the insta-recharge crit in the Tier 9 is so beautiful. Think about it, if you could recharge a Buff power while hitting with a major attack in any other power set? It is like, danged, you gave them that? I know Scrappers should do significantly more damage than Brutes, after all, they get shorted on defenses, resistances, health. But let's face it, many arguments have been made that they do not. This set in Scrappers seems to be a new direction for the designers heading back towards that goal. Plus messing with Brute Fury. Yeah, I really get the feeling (IMO, my feeling) that this set is that good for Scrappers. Time and the boards will tell.
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Few misnomers here.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Yeah, that is what I meant Nalrok. I did not say it very well. I sorta just cut and pasted Paragon Wiki and added a sentence. Basically, as I understand it, you hit the Buff in KM, just like in every other Scrapper Primary. Normally these buff you for like 10-15 secs, not sure, I do not Scrap much. But with KM they did it different. For each KM attack after you hit buff, you get a damage boost, which lasts like 20 seconds, so for 10 seconds, up to 5 attacks, you are building power, then you are doing greatly increased damage for 20 seconds. That is why the insta-recharge crit in the Tier 9 is so beautiful. Think about it, if you could recharge a Buff power while hitting with a major attack in any other power set? It is like, danged, you gave them that? I know Scrappers should do significantly more damage than Brutes, after all, they get shorted on defenses, resistances, health. But let's face it, many arguments have been made that they do not. This set in Scrappers seems to be a new direction for the designers heading back towards that goal. Plus messing with Brute Fury. Yeah, I really get the feeling (IMO, my feeling) that this set is that good for Scrappers. Time and the boards will tell.
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Brute and Scrapper defenses are of the same values/modifiers. The only exception is the HP cap, where Brutes excel. Also, Scrapper and Brute damage levels, with Fury going at it's highest, are generally pretty level with Scrappers pulling ahead due to criticals and a higher base damage modifier. I think that while the set will have more appeal for Scrappers, it won't be any less effective in the hands of a Brute. Does that make sense?
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Thanks for the correction of my misunderstanding of Scrapper defenses. (Danged, they feel lighter lol). And yes, it can be a good set for Brutes. You know I love the big engines of destruction. I believe you are correct that Scrappers will find this set appealing, I am just REALLY of that opinion. Of all the scrapper sets, considering buffs, etc, this is one of the few interesting to me. Course, I rarely Scrap. But yeah, I love a unique and possibly wonderful variation. (Like Brutes!)
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Few misnomers here.
Brute and Scrapper defenses are of the same values/modifiers. The only exception is the HP cap, where Brutes excel. Also, Scrapper and Brute damage levels, with Fury going at it's highest, are generally pretty level with Scrappers pulling ahead due to criticals and a higher base damage modifier. I think that while the set will have more appeal for Scrappers, it won't be any less effective in the hands of a Brute. Does that make sense? |
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I'm a corrector, what can I say. I can almost guarantee you that the reason your Scraps feel weaker is because of the lower base HP and lower Max HP cap. I'm not saying Scrappers are weaker, I'm saying that if you get hit with a 500 damage attack it's gonna look (and is, for that matter) a lot more painful when you have less HP to soak it.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Thanks for the correction of my misunderstanding of Scrapper defenses. (Danged, they feel lighter lol). And yes, it can be a good set for Brutes. You know I love the big engines of destruction. I believe you are correct that Scrappers will find this set appealing, I am just REALLY of that opinion. Of all the scrapper sets, considering buffs, etc, this is one of the few interesting to me. Course, I rarely Scrap. But yeah, I love a unique and possibly wonderful variation. (Like Brutes!)
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Actually Brutes have higher resistance caps, the same as tanks. They just usually need external buffs to reach them, but not always; an /Elec Brute reaches 90% energy resistance on its own for example.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Few misnomers here.
Brute and Scrapper defenses are of the same values/modifiers. The only exception is the HP cap, where Brutes excel. |
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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I know that. That doesn't mean the modifiers are different. They both come in at .75.
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Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Actually Brutes have higher resistance caps, the same as tanks. They just usually need external buffs to reach them, but not always; an /Elec Brute reaches 90% energy resistance on its own for example.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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The difference is Power Siphon maintenance requires you to continually use KM attacks, which is a limiting factor in my opinion.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I don't think that's a good way to look at it. Power Siphon is sort of like Soul Drain, with the damage buffs being applied over the course of a few attacks rather than one AoE.
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And for the record, both Power Siphon and Soul Drain add much more to a Scrapper's damage output than a Brute's.
If more players actually posted Brute times for the Rikti Pylon Thread, especially DM/SD and FM/SD - you'd actually see just how large a gap it is. And this is only with self buffing. There is a reason that DM/SD with nearly perma, fully saturated, Soul Drain dominates the top times in that thread.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Few misnomers here.
Brute and Scrapper defenses are of the same values/modifiers. The only exception is the HP cap, where Brutes excel. |
Brute's have higher resistance caps, which is immediately beneficial to Invuln, Ela, FA and DA but not much an advantage to other sets due to the generally less played support sets that buff resistances.
So where a well built invuln Brute could get to 90% Sm/L resistance, the Scrapper can only ever get to 75%.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Also, Scrapper and Brute damage levels, with Fury going at it's highest, are generally pretty level with Scrappers pulling ahead due to criticals and a higher base damage modifier. I think that while the set will have more appeal for Scrappers, it won't be any less effective in the hands of a Brute. Does that make sense?
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As soon as large, "always on" or outside damage buffs come into the picture - Scrappers pull ahead by a large margin due to how damage buffing and the melee damage scalars work together.
Adding damage to a Brute, with Fury, means the damage bonus gets "diluted" in a way.
This is why KM, DB, Elm & SD are all sets that work better for scrappers than brutes.
For reference, Scrapper shield charge does nearly DOUBLE the damage that the Brute version does.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I know that. That doesn't mean the modifiers are different. They both come in at .75.
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That's... what I said.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
The difference is Power Siphon maintenance requires you to continually use KM attacks, which is a limiting factor in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
And for the record, both Power Siphon and Soul Drain add much more to a Scrapper's damage output than a Brute's.
If more players actually posted Brute times for the Rikti Pylon Thread, especially DM/SD and FM/SD - you'd actually see just how large a gap it is. And this is only with self buffing. There is a reason that DM/SD with nearly perma, fully saturated, Soul Drain dominates the top times in that thread. |
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
That's incorrect.
Brute's have higher resistance caps, which is immediately beneficial to Invuln, Ela, FA and DA but not much an advantage to other sets due to the generally less played support sets that buff resistances. So where a well built invuln Brute could get to 90% Sm/L resistance, the Scrapper can only ever get to 75%. |
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
That's incorrect.
As soon as large, "always on" or outside damage buffs come into the picture - Scrappers pull ahead by a large margin due to how damage buffing and the melee damage scalars work together. Adding damage to a Brute, with Fury, means the damage bonus gets "diluted" in a way. This is why KM, DB, Elm & SD are all sets that work better for scrappers than brutes. |
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
For reference, Scrapper shield charge does nearly DOUBLE the damage that the Brute version does.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Tankers have a .8 modifier.
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Give me a little more credit and actually read my posts before telling me I don't know what I'm talking about.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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You need to seriously take a chill pill.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
*headdesk* Please read what I said. Read. What. I. Said. I am not talking about caps. I am not talking about caps. I am talking about modifiers. Value modifiers for resistances and defenses. Not caps. Modifiers. Not caps, but modifiers.
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If you don't like to be corrected, then you need to be more accurate when you post.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_athZim
The only exception is the HP cap, where Brutes excel.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_athZim
I remember at some point Bill Z posted up damage comparisons and IIRC Brutes and Scrappers were on a fairly level terrain with, as I said, Scrappers pulling ahead due to criticals and higher damage modifiers. I'm well aware that Scrappers put out more damage but they don't make Brute's look like crap. Besides, I'm not relying on "outside buffs."
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2) Brute fury got nerfed, no new comparison is available.
3) None of those DPS chains take AAO into account, the gap between what a Scrapper gets from AAO and a Brute is larger than you seem to believe.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_athZim
I'm aware. I understand perfectly that Scrappers do more damage. I know this because they have a higher damage modifier! Sound like a broken record? I sure feel like I do, since I have to keep repeating things.
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If you don't actually understand how the mechanics work exactly, you might want to be less aggressive in your tone.
There's no reason to become uncivil.
And for the record.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_athZim
I'm aware. I understand perfectly that Scrappers do more damage.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_athZim
It works just as well on a Brute, thank you very much.
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You're contradicting yourself, it does NOT work as well on a Brute.
You might want to keep consistent before losing your cool.
KM does not work as well for a Brute, no matter how much you think it does.
I'd like for it to work as well for Brutes. I'd like for KM, DB, Elm & SD to all be adjusted the way that Claws was adjusted to work better mechanically for Brutes & Fury.
I doubt we'll ever see it happen though.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_athZim
You're actually quoting their Damage Scale modifier. ParagonWiki and City of Data both list Tankers as having a .100 (or 1.0 for regular decimals) damage resistance modifier. You're actually quoting their Damage Scale modifier. Brutes and Scrappers have .75 as a modifier. Ever notice how Brute armor numbers are 75% of Tanker armor numbers? That's why, chief.
Give me a little more credit and actually read my posts before telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. |
I was wrong here, i thought you were discussing melee damage scalars. My mistake.
You can still try and tone it down, I'm happy to discuss this but if you can't remain civil, I'm just going to ignore you.
As the title says I have no idea which secondary I should take for my Brute. I will only be playing with another friend so there will never be teams, we will be duoing missions together. Which secondary is good for this sort of thing? Right now I'm thinking between Shield Defense/Invulnerability/Energy Armor/Willpower/Fiery Aura/Super Reflexes
I want to be able to handle big groups with high levels when the toon is a higher level.