Can't decide on a secondary for KM/

Wait... Elm?

While this is true, it's not really a correction. For example, if you say a Brute is getting +120% damage from Fury (not at all uncommon once they have scrapper locked for a bit), and the Brute and Scrapper both have Blinding Feint up... the difference in damage before Criticals is not much. Which, coincidently, is exactly what Nalrok_AthZim said.
Call it Mod*(Enhancements+Fury+OtherBuffs)*Critical
Brute: 0.75*(0.95+1.2+0.3) = 2.59
Scrapper: 1.125*(0.95+0.375) = 2.61
w/Crits vs Mns: 2.61*1.05=2.75
w/Crits vs Lt+: 2.61*1.10=2.88

If you double the application (two Blinding Feint effects) the difference becomes 2.81 vs 3.03, before Criticals. Again, not a heck of a lot.

A more extreme case, where the damage gap is larger, would be as you mentioned Shield Defense. However, saturated, the damage difference is 2.85 vs 3.15. I would say .3 is worth shaking a stick at, since that's almost half a Defender's contribution (if they just attacked, I mean), and after criticals it's almost an entire Defender contribution.

So, yeah, exactly what Nalrok_AthZim said in the first place. A worth while footnote to his post, but I wouldn't have said "that's incorrect."

As long as this is a point of contention, I was wondering how does Concentrated Strike work for Brutes? I see in the details/data view that it can recharge Power Siphon but I don't see a percentile associated with it.

How well KM works with Brutes compared to Scrappers rides on this quite a bit. Part of the awesome sauce with Stalkers is their critical can top out at 31%. That's a pretty boss chance to recharge Build Up instantly. Let alone being able to Placate->CS to get Build Up back allows for some added flexibility and use for Placate.

With Brutes, how much higher or lower it is than Scrappers (or if it just can't at all) would say a lot about comparing the set with these two ATs.

If it's the same, lower, or not at all then I'm inclined to agree that KM just flat out isn't as good on Brutes as it is on Scrappers. Comparing the damage on each of the attacks, with the exception of CS, the base damage has an even bigger gap than normal.

The damage mods .75 and 1.125 suggest that the Scrapper does 50% more than the Brute (base), or that the Brute does 66% of the Scrapper at base. However a cursory glance at the attacks in KM shows that the Scrapper does 65% more, or to put it the other way the Brute only does 60%. That's not good at all.

The only way to save Brutes in that, from what I can tell, would be to give Concentrated Strike a really high chance to recharge Power Siphon.

You're right (this is what I get for posting at work).

What I meant to say, but didn't was LR and not the entirety of Elm. I don't have my own Elm Brute to compare to my Scrapper, but my SO only L45 Elm/SD Scrapper SC is currently doing "more" damage than my friend's Elm/SD Brute's SC.


How much is "more"? Well, you got me there.

I plan to set up an AE mish to test it out with my friend once my Scrapper's build is L50 and complete - at a glance it looks like at least +100 more damage for the Scrapper version of LR.


So yes, thanks for the corrections, I actually thought DB was worse than that for Brutes.

And for the places where I was incorrect, I apologize to Nalrok.

Do you have a similar comparison for KM & Power Siphon?

I think KM & Power Siphon are a little harder to boil down, unfortunately. That's because of what I mentioned in my last post: I'm not sure how Concentrated Strike compares. How often Power Siphon is actually up will vary based on that.

Let's assume it's the same, though.
If you do the same formulaic overview that I did before, with one application of Power Siphon, before Criticals, and counting Fury as +120% the damage is suspiciously similiar.
Brutes: 0.75*(0.95+1.2+.25)=2.55
Scrappers: 1.125*(0.95+.33)=2.56 (vs Mns 2.69, vs Lt+ 2.82)
However, with 5 applications the gap is even worse than it was with /Shield.
Brutes: 0.75*(0.95+1.2+1.25)=3.30
Scrappers: 1.125*(0.95+1.56)=4.05 (vs Mns 4.25, vs Lt+ 4.45)

It only gets worse. This is compounded by what I observed in my last post, that the gap in base damage is larger in KM/ than the standard deviation. I'm not sure if Scrappers are doing more or Brutes doing less, because all I did was compare the base damages. Either way, the gaps noted above are an underestimation. Brutes would in fact trail even more.

It's also compounded (though probably not as much) by the difference in +ToHit than Power Siphon offers.

Remember, also, that I'm calling Fury +120%, which is above the average a Brute will maintain. It's what a Brute will hold while scrapperlocking, continually attacking, taking alphas, that sort of thing. It can be maintained for long periods of time, however, and I find it to be an appropriate benchmark.

For KM/Shield, a Scrapper's damage would decimate a Brute's.

I digress, I think the only thing that could salvage this situation is if Concentrated Strike was much better for Brutes. If Power Siphon were up more often that could close the gap.

Edit:
I also think it's worth noting that these comparisons shouldn't be taken as gospel. A true run down of an attack chain, with a certain amount of recharge etc, would shed more light into the discrepancy of damage. They should be taken as an indicator of the probable difference in damage, and I believe they are particularly useful when comparing the exact same set across two ATs.

But it's not. The Scrapper HP cap is lower than the Brute HP cap. When I say Brutes excel when it comes to HP cap numbers, that's correct.

Scrapper Base HP: 1338.6
Scrapper HP Cap: 2409.5

Brute Base HP: 1449.3
Brute HP Cap: 3212.7

Well I'm not a /Shield person anyway, so I'll concede here.
(Small side note: I don't consider Fury 'nerfed' but equalized between Tankers and Scrappers.)

Allow me to define "works just as well" in my view for you:

"Works just as well" means you're not going to feel significantly less purposeful playing a set on a Brute as you would with a Scrapper. Just because Scrappers will do more damage doesn't mean people won't enjoy it as Brutes, nor does it mean you're going to be sitting at the bottom of the totem pole when the numbers are finished rolling. You're still going to do a great deal of damage on a Brute as you are on a Scrapper. Do you opt out of playing anything but Energy/, Axe/, SS/, Stone or Mace/ Brutes just because you can use the same sets for more numbers on Scrappers? (I sincerely hope not.)

I spend a lot of my time repeating myself when it comes to people misunderstanding the numerical mechanics of the Brute AT. Sometimes I get a little testy. Sorry 'bout that, bud.