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AS is one of those "situational" powers where it reaps the most benefit from being in hide. a snipe is long animation to simulate the same effect as real world snipes. long time to aim and fire. i really see no reason to change them. and /cottage rule.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
I realized the other day that I have tried interruptable powers many times, but with the exception of PFF+Aid Self, I never stick with them.
We all know how DPA and activation times play into most min-max discussions, and with that in mind, I notice most interruptable powers all have noticeably longer animation times as well as being interruptible. Why not just do away with interruptability. Add the interrupt time to the activation and be done with it. Having a long animation ALONE is a death sentence for a power if your a min-maxxer, but also being interruptable (I believe) will get this power off most player's radar, at least after they realize there are better ways to maximize damage. This whole thought came to me after my recent experience with Stalkers. AS seems needlessly hampered with an interrupt. It does considerably less damage out of hide, so the long-ish animation alone becomes a limiting factor. This is just a "what if" thread. Feel free to show me facts that I am overlooking, but be gentle. I am a grandpa now "officially". |
And AS is high damage while in hide (thanks to assassination.) Snipes, the other typically long-recharge interruptable powers, are ways to get rid of a mob in perfect safety. Might take a little while, but very easily doable. The interrupt period is part of a counter to that.
Besides, there are enhancements to reduce the interrupt time of most interruptable powers.
AS and Snipes both seem specifically designed to be used outside of combat.
For what it is worth, they are both quite fun, but I guess my question is from a point of teaming and solo, how much time do you spend out of combat. It seems that a significant percentage of your game time is spent where these powers sit "un-used" on your bar.
I am advocating (I guess), that if you remove the interrupt, that they become more versatile and able to be employed more frequently, without also becoming more powerful, simply because the animations are quite long (in most cases).
hopefully not too much of a "run-on" there. 
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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not going to happen. you can go back into hide long before the next battle and you probably should be using it on a boss or eb if on a team. snipe can be used to pull a group or to take down some boss or eb hp. they are not meant to be used at all times. back to your undserstanding of as, how can you as someone if they know you are there? you can't. same thing with a snipe actually.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
AS and Snipes both seem specifically designed to be used outside of combat.
For what it is worth, they are both quite fun, but I guess my question is from a point of teaming and solo, how much time do you spend out of combat. It seems that a significant percentage of your game time is spent where these powers sit "un-used" on your bar. I am advocating (I guess), that if you remove the interrupt, that they become more versatile and able to be employed more frequently, without also becoming more powerful, simply because the animations are quite long (in most cases). hopefully not too much of a "run-on" there. |
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Hmmm, well that certainly makes sense. |
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
... back to your undserstanding of AS, how can you AS someone if they know you are there? you can't. same thing with a Snipe actually.
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Score one for concept
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Well, again (dealing with the second point first,) you can slot interrupt reductions at *least* in the snipes - frankenslotting means you won't really lose much else by doing so.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
AS and Snipes both seem specifically designed to be used outside of combat.
For what it is worth, they are both quite fun, but I guess my question is from a point of teaming and solo, how much time do you spend out of combat. It seems that a significant percentage of your game time is spent where these powers sit "un-used" on your bar. I am advocating (I guess), that if you remove the interrupt, that they become more versatile and able to be employed more frequently, without also becoming more powerful, simply because the animations are quite long (in most cases). |
As far as using them in combat? Yeah, I do, actually. Either as an opener, a heavier hit on something I don't want to get in melee with that's beating on a teammate, or - in once instance on a lower level Defender (Emp/Psy,) teleporting out of range, back and forth while fighting Nocturne - got several off. (Not well enhanced at the time.) And yes, I do still hoversnipe on occasion.
My case was not so much that these powers cannot be used during combat.
btw I did know that the interrupt can be enhanced (de-hanced ? hehe ).
Its just my feeling that the interrupt seems un-necessary given the lengthy animations.
Snipe is a good example. With the exception of the great Range and Accuracy, certainly you can dish out more single target damage with other powers during the 4+ seconds of snipe. Or am I wrong ? As far as how my blasters start fights, sniping was fun for a few pulls, but if I am serious about taking down a group (after I'd say level 30), it makes much more sense to unleash AoE Hell and deal with whatever is left. Softening up the boss with a snipe could be helpful I guess, but then the spawn seems to spread out and becomes very fluid, making AoE placement more challenging.
AS, on the other hand, due to stalkers distinct lack of AoE power, should always open a fight. I guess a stalker would have plenty of other options (blasters too) during combat that a long animating attack "could" just sit there until the start of the next fight.
Again, I guess that I am just missing the point of a "need" for interrupt as a penalty since the long animation is plenty of penalty. And in the case of the Stalker, AS does considerably less damage out of hide, so would you seriously "use" this in an attack chain if the interrupt were gone?
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Note I said I was doing that with a defender. I was trying to stay out of the target's range - getting close was, er, a *bad* idea.
As far as AS? One word - placate.
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Heck yeah, my scrappers are all askin me why they cannot do that too?|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Note I said I was doing that with a defender.
I was trying to stay out of the target's range - getting close was, er, a *bad* idea. As far as AS? One word - placate. |
I guess they will just have to be happy with their greater HPs and defenses.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I'd prefer to see a new mechanic added, one which leaves the Interrupt period intact, but scales the effect of the power over the duration of the Interrupt. If the power isn't interrupted, it goes off at 100% effect. If it is interrupted, then the effect of the power is scaled down by whatever percentage of the Interrupt was missed.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Why not just do away with interruptability. Add the interrupt time to the activation and be done with it. Having a long animation ALONE is a death sentence for a power if your a min-maxxer, but also being interruptable (I believe) will get this power off most player's radar, at least after they realize there are better ways to maximize damage.
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Example: I activate Moonbeam (3s Interrupt). 2s in, I'm hit by an enemy. Moonbeam fires at 66% damage (subject, of course, to the standard hit check).
Example: I activate Aid Other (1s Interrupt). I'm interrupted 0.1s later, Aid Other completes at 10% effectiveness.
Would make snipes (the most common powers with Interrupt periods) useful in standard combat and reward us with something in return for the endurance cost that we're forced to pay up front on Interruptible powers.
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That's the problem with those powers, though. Why are you going to bother taking and slotting a power that can only be used to open a fight? Powers such as AS and Snipe make sense in games wherein powers are simply given out to characters when they need to be made available, but when getting these powers and improving them to the point where they're actually useful is made at a cost to the rest of your build, they don't really fit in with the overall design.|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
they are not meant to be used at all times.
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I can generally agree that the interruptible time frame should remain, if only because it makes sense for the powers (you're focusing), though I would just as happy if being interrupted didn't make you "lose" the power and, instead, cause it to have reduced effect. In order to make them useful, however, I'd like to see them actually buffed to the point where they actually offer a decent payout for the investment and risk. Right now they're balanced around 12 and 15 second recharges, respectively. How often are you actually going to need to snipe or use AS though? The recharges could be increased to 30 seconds and there would be little to no difference in their actual use rates simply because you there aren't enough times to use them. Along that same line, if the recharge was increased, the damage would be high enough to actually justify using them while in combat (at reduced and/or riskier effectiveness), allowing them to be more than just situation combat openers.
Thanks for the responses Luminara and Umbral
you have helped me remember how another (to be unnamed) game handled these types of powers. You did not get a reduced effect in that game, it created a "push-back" on the casting time, making it take longer to complete the effect. The less push-back or interruption, the shorter the casting time. The more interuption, the longer the activation time ended up being.
Just curious Umbral, from a numbers perspective, is the cast time on a Blaster snipe (for example) significantly long enough that it would not find its way into an optimal ST chain ?
Always seemed to me that my blasters would deal more ST damage with their regular attacks once they were slotted up nicely (4-6 IO recipes like Thunderstrike).
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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If that were the case, I'd want another mechanic added that basically lets you continuously charge said interruptible powers at an added endurance cost.|
Originally Posted by Luminara
I'd prefer to see a new mechanic added, one which leaves the Interrupt period intact, but scales the effect of the power over the duration of the Interrupt. If the power isn't interrupted, it goes off at 100% effect. If it is interrupted, then the effect of the power is scaled down by whatever percentage of the Interrupt was missed.
Example: I activate Moonbeam (3s Interrupt). 2s in, I'm hit by an enemy. Moonbeam fires at 66% damage (subject, of course, to the standard hit check). Example: I activate Aid Other (1s Interrupt). I'm interrupted 0.1s later, Aid Other completes at 10% effectiveness. Would make snipes (the most common powers with Interrupt periods) useful in standard combat and reward us with something in return for the endurance cost that we're forced to pay up front on Interruptible powers. |
So you activate some kind of "Charge up" toggle that indefinitely extends interrupt times then you activate these interrupt powers. After the initial interrupt, it starts eating your endurance. Either you deactivate the "Charge" and get the resulting effect or you run out of endurance, the toggle drops and you get the resulting amount of effect.
In terms of use, it would be limited. On teams, you'd have to actively coordinate (lol how much fun would it be on a team full of Traps, Devices, Snipers and Stalkers just chatting and coordinating and then *BOOM*) or the effect would be wasted.
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Push-back would be a workable system, but it would require push-back resistance to go hand in hand with it, otherwise you end up right back at square one with players avoiding powers with that effect because they're just too annoying to use in combat. Then you've got to change the animation flags to prevent them from canceling when the player is hit. And there would need to be a hard look at exactly what's allowed to interrupt powers (right now, someone can open an Ouroboros portal near you and interrupt your powers... and that's not even starting to address all of the things enemies can do to cause Interrupts, like simply debuffing you without dealing damage or knocking you down). So that's two brand new mechanics for the game, plus a sweep of all interruptible powers to set the correct flags to prevent characters from just standing with a stupid look on their faces while their powers are being pushed back, and potentially altering numerous powers which deliberately or inadvertently create interrupts.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Thanks for the responses Luminara and Umbral
you have helped me remember how another (to be unnamed) game handled these types of powers. You did not get a reduced effect in that game, it created a "push-back" on the casting time, making it take longer to complete the effect. The less push-back or interruption, the shorter the casting time. The more interuption, the longer the activation time ended up being. |
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Just curious Umbral, from a numbers perspective, in the cast time on a Blaster snipe (for example) significantly long enough that it would not find its way into an optimal ST chain ? Always seemed to me that my blasters would deal more ST damage with their regular attacks once they were slotted up nicely (4-6 IO recipes like Thunderstrike). |
It's like that across the board, with a few notable exceptions like Archery and Radiation Blast for corruptors and defenders. Nearly every set with a snipe deals more damage with the first two attacks than the snipe deals in the same animation time. For the time you spend using snipes, they're less effective than simply ignoring them entirely and sticking with your first two attacks. So not only are you putting yourself at greater risk via standing still for the duration of the Interrupt period and waiting to see if you fire it off or get plastered, you're reducing your damage output at the same time, which further enhances the risk simply by slowing down your kill speed.
And that's not taking into account the damage you can deal if you include your "heavy hitter", if your powerset has one (not Dark Blast or Electrical Blast, for instance). Once you factor those in, there isn't a snipe in any set that doesn't underperform in comparison to simply using your standard attacks.
The only advantage that snipes have over any other ranged attack is greater range, and that hasn't been an advantage since they added "run away" code and increased enemy attack range several years ago.
Bottom line, even if you use Interrupt Reduction enhancements, you're still locked out of your other powers for the full animation time of the snipe, and for that same animation time, 3.67s to 4.67s, you could deal more damage without the snipe. That was why I suggested a scaling mechanic, something that would trigger the effect upon interrupt but still allow the power to do something useful.
Thanks Luminara,
I knew that instinctively after playing my blasters both with and without snipe, just never looked long at the numbers (I do waaayy too much of that for a living, so my game time is for fun and enjoyment). My instinct (based on playing) was that the snipe was damage efficient (assuming no interuption) UNTIL you started looking at IO slotting and any significant amount of recharge into your single target attacks.
The only things that I can think of that could swing the balance back to a snipe are;
A) numbers of slots (for example: 6-slotting a snipe take 5 slots and 1 power pick, but slotting up both your tier 1 and 2 attacks takes 2 power picks and 6-10 additional slots.
B) while you are focusing your snipe you are recovering endurance iirc. The endurance efficiency of "sniping" may be higher (again, until you factor in IO slotting for end reduc).
P.S. for what its worth (which you probably guessed), I would rather see the interrupt either removed or left alone. Its not enough of an issue to warrant a "New" mechanic in my mind, just something that doesnt seem very necessary. If they removed it from the game, I doubt anyone's performance would change drastically (if at all), but I bet more people would consider using these powers for more than just openers.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I have had a long-standing hatred of Snipes... Pretty much since I first tried one. Having done my darnest to make use of these things, it still confounds me to this day how people can claim that you can "take out a mob in complete safety" with a snipe, considering how little damage it does (barely 2.7 scale) for how long it takes to activate. Even as an opener it's no good, because your typical Blaster will open with Aim and Build up, and when you're under the effect of those two, you want to squeeze as much DPA as you can before they expire. And snipes are a Blaster's WORST DPA by far, not counting non-attacks. There is literally no reason to use a Snipe under the effects of Build Up and Aim because you're badly squandering buff time.
The only use people have been consistently explain for snipes has been pulling, and when it gets to that point...
Snipes need to have something happen to them. Either loss of interruptibility, faster animations or MUCH higher damage. Dominator snipes set a good precedent at 3.67 scale damage, a number that might just be worth the wait and risk. And I agree with Umbral - if the things are supposed to be used out of combat, why do they need to recharge so fast? Slow them down if it means they hit harder when they're actually useful.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I will just say that in theory, Push Back may sound ok, but in practice, it sucks. While Interrupt time is a pretty optional stat to enhance in this game, Talents to reduce/eliminate push back are pretty much obligatory in that game. Also to mention that Push Back as a mechanic is pretty much entirely relegated to ranged combatants. It pretty much is doomed to failure if you're trying to come up with an overall solution for this game that applies to both ranged and melee.
There's also the practical effect of different design goals in this game. If there's Push Back, would it work like Fury, and be based on anyone who attacks you? Or would it trigger on any attack that hits you, which instantly makes Defense an overpowering factor. Then in either case there's the overall higher enemy count this game is designed around. That either makes Push Back an extreme penalty or (if the amount lost per swing is reduced) a negligible one. In other words, it gets really hard to scale so that it's not either an overly harsh penalty, or a trivial one.
Besides, I'm not a fan of powers with a built in negative, and being forced to enhance/talent to get rid of that negative.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
...Besides, I'm not a fan of powers with a built in negative, and being forced to enhance/talent to get rid of that negative.
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100% in agreement with you on this one. You will be hard-pressed to find a snipe, nuke, unstoppable, or various and sundry sharp objects in my pockets.
But I kinda wish they were more usefull. The trick the devs need to find is how to make them usable without the huge drawback and NOT be so powerfull that every build contains them. Tough assignment, cause as soon as they change something and it has some passable way to fit into a min-max plan, everyone will know about it tomorrow hehe
Unless I am missing something, there are three main types of interruptable powers : Snipes, Assassin Strike and Medicine Pool.
Snipes: Don't offer comparable DPS except at low levels of recharge to using other non-interuptable attacks. Removing the Interrupt seems irrelevant other than for concept.
Assassin Strike: Doesnt do anywhere near the damage out of hiding that it does from Hide, so again, doing less damage with a long animation seems irrelevant since you definitely will do more dps with other attacks once you have any measurable amount of recharge on your attacks.
Medicine Pool : Ok this could be a problem in the grand scheme of things. Without interrupt, would every newb and their brother add these to their builds ? Maybe. But IF we consider removing the Interrupt, the animation time is still really long. Lets either make it longer OR... reduce the effect strength.
Aid Self and Aid Other being the real "bad-guys", this is how I would change them;
Aid Self 19.6% base heal 4.33sec activation : changed to 11% base with 3.93act
Aid Other 15.7% base w/3.93sec activation : 15.7% base heal with 3.93act
the base values seem reversed from how they should actually work, but maybe its just MIDs (not able to get in game atm and verify)
what powers have I missed ?
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Except that, in the cases I'm using snipe, the range IS the reason why. Yes, I can close on that Sapper, DE mushroom, etc. and use other attacks - but by the time I get in range, I'm also in range of THEM and being shut down. |
Originally Posted by Luminara
Snipes vary from 3.67s to 4.67s. Your blaster's tier 1 attack is 1s, tier 2 is 1.67s... you can attack three or four times with just those two powers in the same time it takes for the snipe to animate, pass the Interrupt period and actually fire, and you typically deal equivalent or higher damage than you would with the snipe. Take Assault Rifle, for example. Burst has a 1s animation, Slug has a 1.67s animation, Sniper Rifle has a 3.67s animation. You can use Burst twice and Slug once in the same amount of time it takes to use Sniper Rifle once... and the combined base damage of Burst x2 plus Slug is 237.8, whereas the base damage of Sniper Rifle is only 172.7.
It's like that across the board, with a few notable exceptions like Archery and Radiation Blast for corruptors and defenders. Nearly every set with a snipe deals more damage with the first two attacks than the snipe deals in the same animation time. For the time you spend using snipes, they're less effective than simply ignoring them entirely and sticking with your first two attacks. So not only are you putting yourself at greater risk via standing still for the duration of the Interrupt period and waiting to see if you fire it off or get plastered, you're reducing your damage output at the same time, which further enhances the risk simply by slowing down your kill speed. |
Take the time to snipe and eliminate them from the outset? Far safer. And if I miss, I still have time to run "plan B," whatever that may be for that character if I miss. I know that doesn't show up on DPS/DPE/ZOMGWTFBBQ charts, but it does show up in my "Why to take this power" consideration. For instance, I take the snipe on most of my Blasters. I don't take it on Dominators because the controls I have available are more effective at shutting down either problem members or the entire spawn, and I typically have a pet to eat an alpha at 32. (And I certainly don't take it on Stalkers - the only time a power's activation comes into play for me, since Stalker snipes lock you into place for *eight seconds.*)
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The problem with that line of reasoning is that you can do the same with your T3 Blast if you have it. Fire/Fire and Energy/Energy, which is what I have experience with, can hit Aim, Build Up and chain up either Blaze or Power Burst from range, close in to 40 feet and have that fire, hit and one-shot a Sapper before it has time to turn around and fire. It's what I typically do. Not to mention that powers like Char, Freeze Ray, Beanbag and even Power Push can achieve much the same benefit.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Except that, in the cases I'm using snipe, the range IS the reason why. Yes, I can close on that Sapper, DE mushroom, etc. and use other attacks - but by the time I get in range, I'm also in range of THEM and being shut down.
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I don't know about Inventions builds, but I know a non-Build Up Blaster snipe can't one-shot a minion on SOs and Commons. This means that you have to use Build Up at least, possibly also Aim, and those are some of a Blaster's best DEFENSIVE abilities. Yes, seriously. Many Blaster combos have attack chains that can either almost instakill lieutenants, or otherwise minion-wipe entire spawns before suffering much damage. The difference between having the powers active and not having the powers active is the difference between a spawn down to its one token lieutenant now low on health, or a spawn with everyone alive and pissed off.
To waste Build Up on a snipe is one of THE worst things a Blaster can do, unless that Blaster is interested in taking bloody ages to single-snipe entire spawns. The power simply does not hit hard enough to be worth its animation time, much less the risk of being interrupted. Really, unless you're talking a Devices Blaster, snipes have very little practical use that doesn't cause more harm than good. And that's from someone who actually uses his.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well, then, you'll just have to disagree with someone else who actually uses his.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
To waste Build Up on a snipe is one of THE worst things a Blaster can do, unless that Blaster is interested in taking bloody ages to single-snipe entire spawns. The power simply does not hit hard enough to be worth its animation time, much less the risk of being interrupted. Really, unless you're talking a Devices Blaster, snipes have very little practical use that doesn't cause more harm than good. And that's from someone who actually uses his.
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Aim+Snipe = that one critter I did not want to deal with is probably dead.
Good enough for me.
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Don't get me wrong. I wasn't talking about crashes. Crashes aren't usually mod-able by enhancers of any type, and in most cases, Global bonuses help mitigate them and shorten the downtime.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
100% in agreement with you on this one. You will be hard-pressed to find a snipe, nuke, unstoppable, or various and sundry sharp objects in my pockets.
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I'm talking about gimmicky mechanics that apply to a limited subset of powers (not END cost which is ubiquitous).
Slots are at a premium in every build. That's by design and unlikely to change. However I feel a gimmick that is only mitigated by wasting those slots, is a cost I'm not inclined to pay.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Hehe, so you probably don't view taking another power pick to counter the negative very highly either ? |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Don't get me wrong. I wasn't talking about crashes. Crashes aren't usually mod-able by enhancers of any type, and in most cases, Global bonuses help mitigate them and shorten the downtime.
I'm talking about gimmicky mechanics that apply to a limited subset of powers (not END cost which is ubiquitous). Slots are at a premium in every build. That's by design and unlikely to change. However I feel a gimmick that is only mitigated by wasting those slots, is a cost I'm not inclined to pay. |
PFF + Aid Self
Nuke + CAB + Powersink
I have actually done both of those. I would prefer the ability to slot-away the side-effect everytime, but as they say,
"if you cannot afford the field, don't buy the cow".
uhm... is that what they say ?
I am getting old, sorry
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I realized the other day that I have tried interruptable powers many times, but with the exception of PFF+Aid Self, I never stick with them.
We all know how DPA and activation times play into most min-max discussions, and with that in mind, I notice most interruptable powers all have noticeably longer animation times as well as being interruptible.
Why not just do away with interruptability. Add the interrupt time to the activation and be done with it. Having a long animation ALONE is a death sentence for a power if your a min-maxxer, but also being interruptable (I believe) will get this power off most player's radar, at least after they realize there are better ways to maximize damage.
This whole thought came to me after my recent experience with Stalkers. AS seems needlessly hampered with an interrupt. It does considerably less damage out of hide, so the long-ish animation alone becomes a limiting factor.
This is just a "what if" thread. Feel free to show me facts that I am overlooking, but be gentle. I am a grandpa now "officially".
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF