Taking away any uniqueness DP has? No thanks.
Goodbye. Not to the game, but the players. Goodbye. Everyone, remember to have fun. That's all I can say.
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Well, that might apply to the other sets, but not Thugs. If you want to, you could have the other three ammo types available only for Thugs, and just use the Taunt for the others. |
Originally Posted by Terminal Velocity
Taking away any uniqueness DP has? No thanks.
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Or even make them more different than that. Give Necromancy drain and fear effects, or Ninjas a cloaking device with Stealth strike.
I agree with Terminal Velocity.
Additionally, MM personal attacks are essentially useless past about level 20 (weak damage unless you waste slots on them, and disproportionately high end cost) The only time Nightshade fires her guns in the higher levels is if I'm bored watching my pets kill everything. Usually I'm too busy firing off my secondary powers and using Provoke.
I imagine it could also be too powerful. For example a /poison would have another slow to stack with Neurotoxic Breath, and Chem rounds to stack with Weaken. I'm not a number cruncher, but that's my impression.
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The whole point is to make it so those attacks AREN'T useless. You can use them as a Tankermind to Taunt your foes and hold aggro. It wouldn't necessarily be an alternative to Provoke, but it would certainly make your use of Provoke more reliable. |
Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
Additionally, MM personal attacks are essentially useless past about level 20 (weak damage unless you waste slots on them, and disproportionately high end cost) The only time Nightshade fires her guns in the higher levels is if I'm bored watching my pets kill everything. Usually I'm too busy firing off my secondary powers and using Provoke.
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| I imagine it could also be too powerful. For example a /poison would have another slow to stack with Neurotoxic Breath, and Chem rounds to stack with Weaken. I'm not a number cruncher, but that's my impression. |
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Defenders don't also have overwhelming damage from six henchmen, however.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Isn't this already the case with Dual Pistols on a Defender or Corruptor? Isn't stacking debuffs what a debuffer is supposed to DO?
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Personally, I'd like to see Mastermind personal attacks either given a significant damage increase to where there's a point to using them or given a significant endurance reduction to where it's not a detriment to use them. Or both.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Id rather they just cut the stupidly, pants on head retardedly high levels of endurance the MM attacks cost. Seriously, they do such mediocre damage, and yet cost more than a blasters AoE attack? I mean, excuse me? What were they on when they made that decision?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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MMs already do significant damage for basically no ongoing end costs via their pets. That's why the personal attacks have such a high DPE cost.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Defenders don't also have overwhelming damage from six henchmen, however.
Personally, I'd like to see Mastermind personal attacks either given a significant damage increase to where there's a point to using them or given a significant endurance reduction to where it's not a detriment to use them. Or both. |
I'd personally give them more of a secondary effect in some way (other than Whips which have it already). Give Pulse Rifle attacks -Damage, Dual Pistols more -Defense, Necro more -ToHit (and a buff to Drain Lifes heal since it's the only set lacking an AOE and the heal is currently laughable), maybe some DoT bleed damage to Archery (cos I can't think of anything else) and a half/half -resist/-defense to Mercs rifles.
That way you make them worthwhile in terms of being debuff/support attacks for your pets and makes it worth slotting them for Acc & End Reduction and using them as such.
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Except that most pets don't actually do that great damage. Not singularly. Once you have all 6 kitted to the teeth and attacking something the damage output is ok, but its more like a steady DoT than burst damage. |
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
MMs already do significant damage for basically no ongoing end costs via their pets. That's why the personal attacks have such a high DPE cost.
I'd personally give them more of a secondary effect in some way (other than Whips which have it already). Give Pulse Rifle attacks -Damage, Dual Pistols more -Defense, Necro more -ToHit (and a buff to Drain Lifes heal since it's the only set lacking an AOE and the heal is currently laughable), maybe some DoT bleed damage to Archery (cos I can't think of anything else) and a half/half -resist/-defense to Mercs rifles. That way you make them worthwhile in terms of being debuff/support attacks for your pets and makes it worth slotting them for Acc & End Reduction and using them as such. |
Just making the MM attacks anything other than totally anaemic would be great. As of now, Demons is the only one I would entertain getting the attacks for, because the whip attacks are fairly decent. They were better in Beta until they got nerfed, but such is the way of life...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Outside of the crappy AoE, they don't actually have a lower DPE cost. Not in terms of scale damage. They still suck because of the low Mastermind damage mod, however.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
MMs already do significant damage for basically no ongoing end costs via their pets. That's why the personal attacks have such a high DPE cost.
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But if the attacks are intentionally made to suck as a balancing factor for their henchmen, then that's not good design because it means some powers are simply designed to be useless. It's basically saying "Masterminds are so good that they only need six powers in their primary. Let's put in placeholders in the other three!"
I can agree with some powers not being as good as seemingly comparable powers in other sets if the sets themselves are balanced. However, I have a severe problem with powers that literally have no point in existence other than kicks and giggles. I take, slot and use all my Mastermind attacks on all my Masterminds and even I will admit they're utterly useless.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I really doubt either Slow or -Dam would be more effective in that respect than the -Res the Hellfire Whip already has. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Defenders don't also have overwhelming damage from six henchmen, however.
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The secondary effects on attacks are so negligible that I don't consider this a valid counter argument. No one is or will ever become "overpowered" because of the Swap Ammo effects.
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| Personally, I'd like to see Mastermind personal attacks either given a significant damage increase to where there's a point to using them or given a significant endurance reduction to where it's not a detriment to use them. Or both. |
The first, I have long since concluded, doesn't have a snowball's chance in H-E-double hockey sticks. Which is why my suggestion is for more utility, not more damage. (Although the DoT could add a *little* of that...)
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I don't think it'll be overpowered, and I think you took that out of context. I just want that, when I take attacks, that I have ATTACKS, not utility powers masquerading as attacks. When I pick up a rifle and fire a burst of rounds into a target, I want the primary effect of this to be the target taking damage from the bullets. I would not refuse any secondary effects, but if it's an attack, it should be an attack.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I really doubt either Slow or -Dam would be more effective in that respect than the -Res the Hellfire Whip already has.
The secondary effects on attacks are so negligible that I don't consider this a valid counter argument. No one is or will ever become "overpowered" because of the Swap Ammo effects. |
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The second I would consider to be an extremely good suggestion. The first, I have long since concluded, doesn't have a snowball's chance in H-E-double hockey sticks. Which is why my suggestion is for more utility, not more damage. (Although the DoT could add a *little* of that...) |
Why take Mastermind personal attacks at all? Until something changes to give us an answer to this question, I will feel like there is a problem.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Actually, ALL Mastermind powers have a high Endurance cost for their effect. It is not just attacks that have a higher cost the balance the efficiency of the henchmen powers. The only exception is the Power Pool, which makes Pool Powers actually a bit more efficient for MMs.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
MMs already do significant damage for basically no ongoing end costs via their pets. That's why the personal attacks have such a high DPE cost.
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I don't think there would be anything conceptually unreasonable about lowering the End cost of the attacks, and leaving the End costs of the Secondary where they are. Call it the Mastermind's Inherent for balancing out his personal attacks. If his attacks are going to do such a small amount of damage, then make them efficient enough to be comparable to the End cost of summoning an henchman.
Cutting the End cost by 50% would be in keeping with my analysis that an attack power is about 1/2 of a henchman power. (You have 5 henchmen powers for 75% of your damage, and 3 attack powers for the other 25%. That's 15% vs about 8%)
Alternately, you could make the DPE so it would match the damage to End ratio of a Defender, as if the Mastermind had a 0.65 damage modifier instead of 0.55. Right now the MM's End cost is +25% over a Defender, or 1.25. If we set 1.0 to the End cost of a 0.65 damage mod attack, then for a 0.55 attack to have the same DPE the End cost would need to be 0.846. And that's 67.68%, or a reduction in End cost of about 68%.
So, reduce End cost by somewhere between 50% and 70%. Heck, just dropping it to the same End cost that other ATs pay would be an 80% reduction in End cost.
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Except Masterminds are in a unique situation. 75% of their damage comes from their henchmen. So they CAN'T do more than about 25% of the overall damage. Consider what a Blaster would do if he had six henchmen dealing damage on TOP of that.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't think it'll be overpowered, and I think you took that out of context. I just want that, when I take attacks, that I have ATTACKS, not utility powers masquerading as attacks. When I pick up a rifle and fire a burst of rounds into a target, I want the primary effect of this to be the target taking damage from the bullets. I would not refuse any secondary effects, but if it's an attack, it should be an attack.
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If you double the damage a Mastermind can do with his attacks, you're talking about a 25% damage boost. Doing 125% of the damage another AT can do. There's no way you can balance that. And if you don't double it, it's not going to be a significant change. Most other ATs have a complete selection of 4-5 attacks to deal damage with, a Mastermind has the three weakest, plus a couple of options from the Epic Pools and some melee attacks from the Pool.
Maybe what is needed is for the Mastermind attacks to get the Blaster Melee attack treatment. Double the damage dealt, but then double the End cost and recharge. (Or, if you want to add in my last suggestion, leave the End cost alone, just double the recharge) Then the MM attacks will have some punch when they hit, but you'll only be able to fire them half as often. At least this will give you more time for other actions.
(I will add that once a Mastermind has a complete chain, his damage increases DRAMATICALLY. The main reason most people believe the attacks are useless is because they don't bother to do this. The real issue is not that a Mastermind can't deal damage, it is that the cost in Powers and Enhancement slots is not comparable to the cost of adding a single tier of henchmen to your selection)
I really HATE party poopers, but I disagree with giving Thugs something like Swap Ammo... because I think there's a better way to do it.
As a countersuggestion, I recommend they create two new IO categories: Ranged Pet Damage and Melee Pet Damage. They could create two to three sets for either type, and include Fire Damage with DoT bonus, Toxic with DoT and Chance of Choking, and Ice with DoT and Chance of Slow.
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Um... that would change the damage type of your pets, not you.|
Originally Posted by Lascota
I really HATE party poopers, but I disagree with giving Thugs something like Swap Ammo... because I think there's a better way to do it.
As a countersuggestion, I recommend they create two new IO categories: Ranged Pet Damage and Melee Pet Damage. They could create two to three sets for either type, and include Fire Damage with DoT bonus, Toxic with DoT and Chance of Choking, and Ice with DoT and Chance of Slow. |
Although I suppose a set called Mastermind Attacks with an IO that adds a Taunt proc (or whatever) to it might accomplish the same goal. That really wouldn't limit Masterminds to be the only ones who could slot the proc, though, and, well, I don't think the devs really want to limit IOs to one AT like that.
Sounds like you're on the right, track, though.
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Trust me - I take, slot and use my personal powers. Almost all the time, you'll see me pumping rounds into enemies myself. Gotta make use of that Redding Rail Rifle. It doesn't make much of a difference, ESPECIALLY in hard fights. You'd think that if the fight is hard enough, you could step on the personal attacks and help kill things faster, but that's actually to your enormous DETRIMENT. Not only does it burn endurance you could be using for healing, protecting and resummoning your henchmen, but you're also wasting A LOT of time doing what amounts to not much of anything. Almost every time a fight starts going sour, I have had to STOP attacking and focus on henchmen support, because this is always and without fail the better course of action.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
(I will add that once a Mastermind has a complete chain, his damage increases DRAMATICALLY. The main reason most people believe the attacks are useless is because they don't bother to do this. The real issue is not that a Mastermind can't deal damage, it is that the cost in Powers and Enhancement slots is not comparable to the cost of adding a single tier of henchmen to your selection)
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Mastermind attacks are toys. They're fun to use, they give you something to do when you're not desperately needed and they look cool. But they're also very expensive toys, requiring power picks, slots, money to fund them and energy to run them. They're fun to play with when it doesn't matter what you do one way or the other, so why NOT shoot arrows at your enemies? But they go out the window as soon as you need to get serious. Mastermind attacks are the first thing that gets dropped when a situation deteriorates in much the same way as a cop would drop his coffee and doughnut when he sees a thug holding up a 711. They are cool, but their use is next to nil.
I'm not saying Masterminds need to do Blaster level damage on their own (nor could they, with all of three powers). What I'm saying is that I don't want to feel like I'm making a mistake every time I fire a personal attack. I doubt they'll ever give Masterminds better personal damage, even at a higher cost, but I see no reason why they can't be given a discount. Secondaries get increased costs for a very simple reason - Masterminds get a LOT more mileage out of support powersets than any other AT, so it makes sense they'd cost more. Conversely, Masterminds get a lot LESS mileage out of personal attacks than any AT in existence, including Controllers, so it doesn't make sense that they'd be so inefficient.
And when I say I want them to be attacks, I say this because they LOOK like attacks. Again - if I fire a rifle, I want to shoot people, not debuff them. If these were supposed to be debuffs or control effects, they should not have been modelled after lethal weapons designed to kill. If the Mercs rifle, for instance, fired beanbags and tear gas, then I could see the powers being support, but it fires bullets and high explosive grenades. Those are not support powers, and they shouldn't be altered into such.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I said DPE. A masterminds DPE is basically trivial because once the pets are summoned there's no additional cost (unless one falls over). You can't just analyse the DPE of the attacks, you also have to take into account the damage the pets are doing as well.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Actually, ALL Mastermind powers have a high Endurance cost for their effect. It is not just attacks that have a higher cost the balance the efficiency of the henchmen powers. The only exception is the Power Pool, which makes Pool Powers actually a bit more efficient for MMs.
I don't think there would be anything conceptually unreasonable about lowering the End cost of the attacks, and leaving the End costs of the Secondary where they are. Call it the Mastermind's Inherent for balancing out his personal attacks. If his attacks are going to do such a small amount of damage, then make them efficient enough to be comparable to the End cost of summoning an henchman. Cutting the End cost by 50% would be in keeping with my analysis that an attack power is about 1/2 of a henchman power. (You have 5 henchmen powers for 75% of your damage, and 3 attack powers for the other 25%. That's 15% vs about 8%) Alternately, you could make the DPE so it would match the damage to End ratio of a Defender, as if the Mastermind had a 0.65 damage modifier instead of 0.55. Right now the MM's End cost is +25% over a Defender, or 1.25. If we set 1.0 to the End cost of a 0.65 damage mod attack, then for a 0.55 attack to have the same DPE the End cost would need to be 0.846. And that's 67.68%, or a reduction in End cost of about 68%. So, reduce End cost by somewhere between 50% and 70%. Heck, just dropping it to the same End cost that other ATs pay would be an 80% reduction in End cost. |
My Masterminds are typically always the ones where End is rarely an issue at all. My Necro/Dark frequently dumps out all his debuffs and stands there with nothing much to do with all that excess Blue.
My Thugs/Traps (with 2 pistol attacks) doesn't even HAVE Stamina.
So I don't see any benefit at all to lowering their End costs. Personally I'd make their attacks more attractive by adding / increasing the Debuff effects of them rather than just increasing damage.
Although I'd probably support increasing the damage of the PPPs / APPs since at the moment they're laughable and pointless (well not pointless, my Necro/Dark likes to pretend he's a Sith with Static Discharge).
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That's like saying that defence sets are the ones where health is irrelevant because they never lose health (unless they get hit).|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I said DPE. A masterminds DPE is basically trivial because once the pets are summoned there's no additional cost (unless one falls over).
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Masterminds lose pets. It's a fact of life. In fact, certain enemies are capable of one-shotting pets, and certain enemies are capable of spawn-wiping pets. Once you lose a pet, you have a 20-end summon, a 45-end upgrade and another 45-end upgrade. Even if you three-slot these for endurance reduction, you're still down to half you total endurance all in one shot. And if you happen to pet-wipe (and it happens), that's three 20-end summons plus 90 for both upgrades.
And I don't know about your Dark Miasma Mastermind, but mine tends to run around using Twilight Grasp an Fearsome Stare rather a lot, so there is a cost associated with them.
I honestly don't know why people keep claiming Masterminds almost never use endurance, when my Masterminds are entirely and wholly endurance-bound. Given enough endurance, they can survive almost anything, but with such severe costs... They rarely are. I guess if you assume that you can just let the henchmen attack and never lose anything to anything and rarely do anything yourself, I can kind of see that. But that's never how it turns out for me. There's always that Longbow Flamethrower or Scrapyarders Demolitionist, or Arachnos Drone or Malta Gunslinger or Knives Caltrops patsh or a Knockout-Blow-happy ancestor spirit or SOMETHING that's taking my guys down, and that costs rather a LOT now that our upgrades are AoE.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm not saying that. I'm saying of any AT I've ever played I've always found Masterminds to be the easiest going on the blue bar. So if you're going to make the attacks more attractive the best way to do so is to make the secondary effects more attractive rather than just reducing the End costs for them. My Necro/Dark lays EVERYTHING down (including using Howling as a mez and that's a damn costly power) and yet he very rarely is gasping for End. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's like saying that defence sets are the ones where health is irrelevant because they never lose health (unless they get hit).
Masterminds lose pets. It's a fact of life. In fact, certain enemies are capable of one-shotting pets, and certain enemies are capable of spawn-wiping pets. Once you lose a pet, you have a 20-end summon, a 45-end upgrade and another 45-end upgrade. Even if you three-slot these for endurance reduction, you're still down to half you total endurance all in one shot. And if you happen to pet-wipe (and it happens), that's three 20-end summons plus 90 for both upgrades. And I don't know about your Dark Miasma Mastermind, but mine tends to run around using Twilight Grasp an Fearsome Stare rather a lot, so there is a cost associated with them. I honestly don't know why people keep claiming Masterminds almost never use endurance, when my Masterminds are entirely and wholly endurance-bound. Given enough endurance, they can survive almost anything, but with such severe costs... They rarely are. I guess if you assume that you can just let the henchmen attack and never lose anything to anything and rarely do anything yourself, I can kind of see that. But that's never how it turns out for me. There's always that Longbow Flamethrower or Scrapyarders Demolitionist, or Arachnos Drone or Malta Gunslinger or Knives Caltrops patsh or a Knockout-Blow-happy ancestor spirit or SOMETHING that's taking my guys down, and that costs rather a LOT now that our upgrades are AoE. |
Saying "Masterminds need an End cost reduction" is ridiculous when you consider any other AT in the game (other than ones with oddball powers available to them which help matters).
Like the way Whips work and provide a resist debuff for example. They're actually a useful support attack for the AT. I'd like the other sets brought more in line with that mentality.
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I don't believe "Masterminds" need an endurance reduction. I'm saying three specific powers per powerset need endurance reduction, because THEY ARE NOT WORTH TAKING. And I disagree that more debuffs would make them that much more worth it, considering support is what your entire secondary is devoted to.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Saying "Masterminds need an End cost reduction" is ridiculous when you consider any other AT in the game (other than ones with oddball powers available to them which help matters).
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| Like the way Whips work and provide a resist debuff for example. They're actually a useful support attack for the AT. I'd like the other sets brought more in line with that mentality. |
I've nothing against control or support powers, not at all. When it makes sense for that to BE a support power. Shooting people with a rifle does not make sense to be a support power. If these were meant to be support, they should not have been made into the powers they are. Shooting people with bullets, lasers, grenades and arrows should not have to do something that's completely out of character for them in order to be useful. This is like suggesting that the proper fix for Blasters during the Defiance 2.0 debates was to give them stronger secondary effects on their ranged attacks.
As long as we shoot guns at people, I will disagree that the primary functions of those powers should be support. Shooting guns at people should foremost KILL people. Shifting the point away from this destroys the point of the power. If, for instance, Mercenaries Mastermind personal attacks were supposed to be attacks, they should have either been given special grenades or given a rotary barrel grenade launcher with a bunch of control grenades. Say a Beanbag, a Flash Grenade and a Dear Gas Can. I wouldn't be complaining about them being support, then. But instead, Mercs Masterminds get guns. And guns kill people.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I've no problem with them doing damage. I didn't mention removing the damage at all.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't believe "Masterminds" need an endurance reduction. I'm saying three specific powers per powerset need endurance reduction, because THEY ARE NOT WORTH TAKING. And I disagree that more debuffs would make them that much more worth it, considering support is what your entire secondary is devoted to.
You know... When I pick an attack that's a rife doing auto fire, I don't want the only point in taking this to be because it confuses enemies or because it debuffs their resistance. That's as silly as the old time when Knockout Blow stunned people but did no damage. I've nothing against control or support powers, not at all. When it makes sense for that to BE a support power. Shooting people with a rifle does not make sense to be a support power. If these were meant to be support, they should not have been made into the powers they are. Shooting people with bullets, lasers, grenades and arrows should not have to do something that's completely out of character for them in order to be useful. This is like suggesting that the proper fix for Blasters during the Defiance 2.0 debates was to give them stronger secondary effects on their ranged attacks. As long as we shoot guns at people, I will disagree that the primary functions of those powers should be support. Shooting guns at people should foremost KILL people. Shifting the point away from this destroys the point of the power. If, for instance, Mercenaries Mastermind personal attacks were supposed to be attacks, they should have either been given special grenades or given a rotary barrel grenade launcher with a bunch of control grenades. Say a Beanbag, a Flash Grenade and a Dear Gas Can. I wouldn't be complaining about them being support, then. But instead, Mercs Masterminds get guns. And guns kill people. |
I'd just like them to be more useful in the way Whips are useful, as a power multiplier rather than just doing a bit more damage which I don't think Masterminds particularly need in the slightest.
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Whips is really the only useful personal attack for MMs, because the -res build up means that you will actually end up doing some damage, rather than plinking away worthlessly. |
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I've no problem with them doing damage. I didn't mention removing the damage at all.
I'd just like them to be more useful in the way Whips are useful, as a power multiplier rather than just doing a bit more damage which I don't think Masterminds particularly need in the slightest. |
Lets look at the others shall we?
Bots; Two anaemic, heavy end attacks. Piddly chance for KB, which the bots have in spades anyway so its not needed. One AoE stun attack which has a horrible chance to stun and costs as much as, say, a Blasters Fireball. More, in fact. Taking Seeker Drones is a much better bet, and protector bots get the attack and the drones free anyway. Also an agrro magnet if it fails to stun, which is often.
Mercs. Ditto, with some -def in burst which, again the pets already have on pretty much every attack. M30 grenade suffers the same as Photon grenade, and is again a huge aggro magnet.
Ninjas. Ok, this one isn't so bad, because the bow attacks don't cost so much and are more accurate from the get go. Just pure damage though.
Hmn, Zombies win a little bit more on the blasts. -ToHit and slightly better, neg energy damage. Life Drain looks pitiful though. Single target which is niether attack nor dedicated heal and costs as much as an AoE? Riiiiight.
I just fail to see how cutting down a bit on the endurance cost of the attacks would be anything oter than a good thing. More people might consider taking them, those that have them get a nice little buff...win/win?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Because, from my own personal experience, it isn't the End Costs which is the clincher. Masterminds tend to have lots of spare End, despite the increased costs of their secondary and the AOE buff powers.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Whips is really the only useful personal attack for MMs, because the -res build up means that you will actually end up doing some damage, rather than plinking away worthlessly.
Lets look at the others shall we? Bots; Two anaemic, heavy end attacks. Piddly chance for KB, which the bots have in spades anyway so its not needed. One AoE stun attack which has a horrible chance to stun and costs as much as, say, a Blasters Fireball. More, in fact. Taking Seeker Drones is a much better bet, and protector bots get the attack and the drones free anyway. Also an agrro magnet if it fails to stun, which is often. Mercs. Ditto, with some -def in burst which, again the pets already have on pretty much every attack. M30 grenade suffers the same as Photon grenade, and is again a huge aggro magnet. Ninjas. Ok, this one isn't so bad, because the bow attacks don't cost so much and are more accurate from the get go. Just pure damage though. Hmn, Zombies win a little bit more on the blasts. -ToHit and slightly better, neg energy damage. Life Drain looks pitiful though. Single target which is niether attack nor dedicated heal and costs as much as an AoE? Riiiiight. I just fail to see how cutting down a bit on the endurance cost of the attacks would be anything oter than a good thing. More people might consider taking them, those that have them get a nice little buff...win/win? |
What I'm suggesting as an alternative is to extend the design decision made with Whips and to provide a decent reason to encourage people to take them by providing them with extra / new effects which work as a power multiplier.
I wonder if you could make up fancy new secondary effects, rather than standard debuff ones. Say for example if Arrow attacks each had the capability of adding a "I'm bleeding out" effect where any other attacks which hit over the next 5 seconds did an extra wee bit of Lethal damage (a very minor Fiery Embrace effect, but applicable to just that target when hit by attacks from anyone).
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Here's how I feel - an attack doesn't have to have a high value for me to use it, if the cost to taking, slotting and using it is low. Low cost to low value can still equal high comparative worth.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Because, from my own personal experience, it isn't the End Costs which is the clincher. Masterminds tend to have lots of spare End, despite the increased costs of their secondary and the AOE buff powers.
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In other words, Mastermind attacks don't have to be made GOOD in order for me to wan them. They should just be fixed so they're no longer BAD. I wouldn't have a problem spamming largely useless attacks if they didn't HURT me to use them. And they do.
Making a good attack out of a useless attack is hard, complicated and often downright impossible. Making a mediocre attack out of a useless attack, on the other hand, is very easy - make it cheap and be done with it. And I'd sooner have mediocre attacks rather than useless attacks with mediocre debuffs on them.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yeah, I know what you're thinking. "What would a Thugs Mastermind be willing to give up for Swap Ammo? And who would want to take those dinky little Mastermind attacks anyway?" But that's actually kind of the point. I've been posting in another thread discussing the attacks of a Mastermind, and began thinking about the various things I've suggested to make them more appealing.
My idea is for ALL Masterminds to get Swap Ammo, as part of their Inherent. The main thing is to add something that I have suggested before, a Taunt component to the Mastermind's attacks. Swap Ammo already has a mechanism to do this, a toggle Power that could be turned on to "activate" that effect. The other effects of Swap Ammo from Dual Pistols could be added to be consistent with that set, but since most Masterminds use some form of weapon, (all but Necro, really) this could be extended to all of them.
My suggestion here is for "Ultrasonic Rounds", to emit a sonic pulse to provide the Taunt effect, but it could be something like "Capsaicin Rounds" (pepper spray) or tear gas if that seems more appropriate. Really, capsaicin would not encourage you to fight, it's supposed to stop you from fighting, but there you go...
So, you essentially provide four toggles to the Mastermind from level 1 (or 6 if you want to be consistent with Corruptors and Blasters) which he can choose between:
1) Cryo Ammunition - Changes 30% of damage to Cold and adds Slow effect
2) Incendiary Ammunition - Changes 30% of damage to Fire and adds DoT effect
3) Chemical Ammunition - Changes 30% of damage to Toxic and adds -Dam effect
4) Ultrasonic Ammunition - Adds Taunt effect
No toggle would be "Standard Ammunition" or the default behavior. In the first three cases, whatever secondary effect was standard for the attack type would be dropped for the replacement effect, but in the case of the Taunt it could keep its default behavior and damage type. Also, the Taunt effect, but none of the other Ammunition types, could be extended to APPs and the Power Pool attacks. Basically, it would have the Taunt option just like a Tanker does.
I'm debating whether to make the Taunt effect AoE, but just single target should be fine, particularly if the MM can Taunt with AoE attacks from the Patron/Ancillary Pools. The Incendiary DoT effect should also be useful just to raise the damage level of the MM attacks. Alternately, the -Dam and Slow could be effective alternate mitigation to the normal secondary effect.
Finally, while it is obviously straightforward to convert the attack effects for Thugs, Ninjas, and Mercenaries, I should make a few notes about the other Primaries:
Robotics - The 30% replacement of damage type should be applied to the Energy portion of the damage. Thus, Pulse Rifle Burst will do 20% Smashing, 50% Energy and 30% Fire, Cold or Toxic damage. And the Photon Grenade will be 30% each. The Knockback and Stun effects are lost when you change ammo. (except for Taunt ammo)
Necromancy - The Dark blasts will be 70% Negative Energy and 30% secondary type. The -ToHit effect is lost when you change ammo. (except for Taunt ammo) The heal in Life Drain should work with any ammo.
Demon Summoning - Since the Hellfire Whip has both -Res and DoT, the replacement gets a little complicated. I would suggest the following:
1) Cryo - 30% of the Fire damage becomes Cold, and the Toxic DoT is lost. The -Res becomes Slow.
2) Incendiary - The Toxic DoT becomes Fire DoT. The -Res remains. The whip becomes totally Fire damage.
3) Chemical - 30% of the Fire damage becomes Toxic, and the Toxic DoT is lost. The -Res becomes -Dam. In short, the Toxic damage becomes front loaded, and it goes from boosting your damage (and the team's) to reducing incoming damage.
4) Taunt - All other effects remain the same, just add the Taunt effect.
And here's my idea for the power animations:
Thugs - The same as Dual Pistols, of course, without all the flashy gunplay, just the colored bullet trails. I would like to see the "gun fu" animations as a Customization option, though. The taunt can add a sonic "ring" effect when it hits he target, along with sound effect.
Mercs - Visually the same as Thugs.
Ninjas - Basically, fire ammo would make the arrowhead look like Blazing Arrow, and cold ammo like Ice Arrow. You could even use Acid Arrow and Disruption Arrow for the toxic and taunt versions. (Not the animation, of course, but the effects and possibly the arrowhead)
Robotics - Visually, the beam should turn blue for cold, a "hotter" red for fire, and green for toxic. For taunt, it could be a ring effect as with Thugs, or a "sound beam".
Necromancy - The graphics for this could look cool, particularly a mix of the dark with flames for fire, with the blasts perhaps leaving a trail of fire, cold, or toxic smoke. For taunt you can have various screaming effects.
Demon Summoning - The whip basically will change colors to match the Firey, Cold and Hellfire Demonlings, with a greenish tint for the Toxic version. The taunt version would become blacker, more like Dark Blast.