Well, first of all, I want to thank Samuel and Carnifax for getting involved in the conversation and making counter suggestions instead of just dismissing the idea. 
You two are, in fact, making a pretty good case for the two opposing arguments for solutions in this matter. I have to say I back secondary effect buffs more than damage buffs, for the same reason I would have backed the same for Defenders. But I also think that even with more utility, the End cost issue is also something that still needs to be addressed.
As for Defenders, well, they were given an Inherent that helped out their damage, but only under very precise conditions. (i.e., primarily while solo) This could suggest alternate solutions as well. (One of which I'll get into, below)
Quote:
Keep in mind, your attacks do no more and no less damage than those of your henchmen. Individual attack and henchman compared to individual attack and henchman, your Tier 1s are probably doing less damage per attack than you, and your Tier 3 somewhat more (he gets the big attacks like Knockout Blow) but all examples are trivial compared to the damage any other Archetype could do with the same attack.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And when I say I want them to be attacks, I say this because they LOOK like attacks. Again - if I fire a rifle, I want to shoot people, not debuff them. If these were supposed to be debuffs or control effects, they should not have been modelled after lethal weapons designed to kill.
|
Your henchmen are doing trivial damage too, but they still carry rifles, pistols, swords and beam cannons. No one protests that those attacks should be "support" because they do such minimal damage. Primarily because that damage does not come as a single attack, but as a volley from a squad of attackers.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I said DPE. A masterminds DPE is basically trivial because once the pets are summoned there's no additional cost (unless one falls over). You can't just analyse the DPE of the attacks, you also have to take into account the damage the pets are doing as well.
|
Any AT with a lower damage modifier has a lower DPE than one with a higher modifier. That's simple math, the AT uses the same Endurance to get less damage. A Mastermind, however, pays 25% more Endurance ON TOP of its damage modifier. That is not trivial, because the cost in Endurance in using attacks is similar in nature to the cost in slots and Power choices in taking attacks. Other choices are both more efficient in terms of slots, and more efficient in terms of maximizing time to zero End. Taken together, these facts make Mastermind attacks extremely unpopular.
Remember also that attacks use up more Endurance than toggles, and they are likely to use more Endurance than click support powers as well, because they have much lower recharge times. Masterminds tend to have more spare End than other ATs, because they tend to use their attacks considerably less than the other ATs. It is attacks that normally drain Endurance. (And this is likely why the devs chose to use them to try and pay the henchmen End cost, but all that did was discourage people from using them)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Trust me - I take, slot and use my personal powers. Almost all the time, you'll see me pumping rounds into enemies myself.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I honestly don't know why people keep claiming Masterminds almost never use endurance, when my Masterminds are entirely and wholly endurance-bound.
|
And this reflects my own experience, even when I'm just using the Vet attacks. Certainly the cost of summoning and upgrading the henchmen is high in End cost, you must typically take time to recover before you are ready to fight at full capacity after summoning or resummoning your henchmen. And as Samuel said, no one is suggesting giving Masterminds an End cost reduction across the board. The question is whether or not the End cost for the attacks, specifically, is adding to the inefficiency of the attacks as compared to the Mastermind's other Powers in general.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Making a good attack out of a useless attack is hard, complicated and often downright impossible. Making a mediocre attack out of a useless attack, on the other hand, is very easy - make it cheap and be done with it. And I'd sooner have mediocre attacks rather than useless attacks with mediocre debuffs on them.
|
This means that with the Mastermind outnumbered one to six, he is at best capable of doing 2/5 of the damage. (if you assume each Tier gets an equal share) An attack that does 40% of what any other AT can do with its own selection of attacks would be considered mediocre, no matter how much damage that is. It could have a recharge as long as Knockout Blow, with a damage comparable, and it would still be considerably weaker than any other AT's comparable attack.
Another suggestion I have seen in the past is that as a Mastermind loses henchmen, his attacks get stronger to compensate. This seems counterproductive, we should probably not encourage Masterminds NOT to summon their henchmen, but it would help petless Masterminds, and Masterminds that are in the situation of having to recover from a henchman wipe. Attacks really WOULD become useful under such a circumstance.
Perhaps a "Vengeance" kind of effect, where every time a henchman dies the Mastermind gets a +10% or so boost to damage could apply for, say, 30 seconds. It's also important to note that Controllers, the only other AT that has a damage mod equal to Masterminds, and which have a similar issue with starting out with weak, inefficient damage dealing powers, get Containment to double their damage to a meaningful level. Masterminds get no such bonus because they do have their pets making up the remaining portion of the damage, even from level 1.
Honestly, even if my suggestion is used, or any other method to add Taunt or debuff effects to the attacks, it will probably still be necessary to lower the End cost. Otherwise, it will still be too costly to take and slot the attacks for the effects that they cause. This does not mean the reduction has to be dramatic, even lowering it to the same cost as the other ATs, or reducing it by the same 25% that the Secondary is raised, would be a major turnaround in the argument about usefulness.
Quote:
The problem is that the attacks were clearly meant to provide protection for the Mastermind in the event that he has lost all of his henchmen. Sure, as Samuel said, it is more efficient and better in the long run to stop attacking and begin resummoning your henchmen on the fly. Particularly since Bodyguard can be more valuable to your survivability when you are being overwhelmed. However, if you are at a sliver of health, and a single foe is at a sliver of health, it is entirely possible that firing a single shot would prevent you from dying, while taking the cast time to summon a henchman would lead to you taking a hit that would kill you.|
Originally Posted by Ryuuk
Total non-starter due to the cottage rule, but I don't think MM primaries should have attacks at all. They can't get good or even mediocre attacks because their pets are so powerful, and as stated why have near-useless powers in any set, much less 3 of them? If an MM really wants attacks, he can go to pools or APPs, just like any other AT has to do to get powers outside of their normal purview.
|
A secondary issue is that the devs NEVER want to leave you with no offensive powers. You are forced to pick among your first two powers in your Primary set, and they must both have offensive benefit, or you will be able to create a character that cannot deal damage AT ALL. Unless the devs gave you two Tiers of henchmen at level 1 to choose between, which I suspect they would not do, your second choice must be an attack. So in essense, that attack is useless for all other levels, but is intended to get you to level 2 so you can take the other Power choice.
Finally, removing the attacks from the Primary would not help the attacks in the Power Pool or Patron Pools, which although you have the choice whether or not to take them, still have the same issue of being based on the MM's 0.55 damage modifier. They are just as useless as the Primary attacks, and taking the Primary attacks out of the picture doesn't change that. I would honestly rather see them all balanced. (Although at least the attacks in the Power Pool already cost the same as the other ATs)
Quote:
In that situation it is better to run, and then resummon. Yes, in that specific scenario, with 1 enemy with a sliver of health and all pets dead, it would be nice to have an attack. It is a very unlikely scenario, though, and I don't think 3 powers should be devoted to it. 1 at the most, although I would still think it a waste.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The problem is that the attacks were clearly meant to provide protection for the Mastermind in the event that he has lost all of his henchmen. Sure, as Samuel said, it is more efficient and better in the long run to stop attacking and begin resummoning your henchmen on the fly. Particularly since Bodyguard can be more valuable to your survivability when you are being overwhelmed. However, if you are at a sliver of health, and a single foe is at a sliver of health, it is entirely possible that firing a single shot would prevent you from dying, while taking the cast time to summon a henchman would lead to you taking a hit that would kill you.
|
Quote:
| A secondary issue is that the devs NEVER want to leave you with no offensive powers. You are forced to pick among your first two powers in your Primary set, and they must both have offensive benefit, or you will be able to create a character that cannot deal damage AT ALL. Unless the devs gave you two Tiers of henchmen at level 1 to choose between, which I suspect they would not do, your second choice must be an attack. So in essense, that attack is useless for all other levels, but is intended to get you to level 2 so you can take the other Power choice. |
Quote:
| Finally, removing the attacks from the Primary would not help the attacks in the Power Pool or Patron Pools, which although you have the choice whether or not to take them, still have the same issue of being based on the MM's 0.55 damage modifier. They are just as useless as the Primary attacks, and taking the Primary attacks out of the picture doesn't change that. I would honestly rather see them all balanced. (Although at least the attacks in the Power Pool already cost the same as the other ATs) |
Are there very specific set combinations in other ATs that can deal more damage and have equally good survivability? Maybe, but they usually lack buff/debuff which can be immensely helpful to a team. MMs are at the high end of strength in this game. If their personal offense improves it would probably require a corresponding decrease in the strength of their pets, which would just water them down and make them more like other ATs. I think that's a bad thing, lots of other ATs are kind of generic in playstyle, like melee classes. Let's not make the most unique AT play more like the rest. If anything, give them more mastermindy powers, and less attacks.
Quote:
Of course you could. Let's say that the second power available to you at Level 1 is Upgrade. So you take Upgrade, and whatever the first power is in your Secondary. You have no pets, and you have no attacks. Presumably, you would have to Brawl your way to level 2, or use the Vet Rewards. In the absense of either, you would have no way of earning XP outside of joining a team. |
Originally Posted by Ryuuk
One of the first 2 powers does have an offensive benefit, it is a pet. Therefore even if the second was not an attack, you could not make such a character.
|
Sure, it's foolish, and it would also be foolish to continue to avoid the pets or attacks, choosing only powers from the Pool or Secondary so that you would end up at level 50 with nothing but Brawl. But it's POSSIBLE. And one of the reasons why the devs limited you to a selection of three powers at level 1 was they wanted to make sure no player ever made the mistake of selecting only support powers, that were incapable of defeating foes.
Now, if it was reversed, and Masterminds had their pets in their Secondary, then they would be forced to choose the henchman. (Actually, they would be forced to choose the attack, but let's assume for the sake of argument the Tier 1 Power was moved down into the first slot) But BOTH of the first two powers have to be offensive, if the Secondary power is not offensive, because they can be mutually exclusive. You can choose to take one and not the other. (And oftentimes Masterminds do, since the other is the attack)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ryuuk
All of the attacks available to MMs(primary, pool, app) are balanced now. They are balanced against the rest of the offensive capability of the AT. There simply isn't any argument to be made that MMs need either more damage or even more endurance-efficient damage. Right now MMs have one of the best levels of mitigation and damage combined of all ATs in the game.
|
The attacks aren't even balanced against each other. The Pool attacks have higher DPE than the attacks in the Primary and APPs. They don't have the higher Endurance cost. The only reason that isn't an issue is because the Pool attacks are all melee, and very low damage comparative to Patron pools. And actually, one of the most Endurance efficient things a Mastermind can use is a Vet Reward or Temp power, since he not only doesn't have to spend a power pick or slot it, but it also does twice the damage of his "normal" attacks.
You're right. So just lock player choice for lvl 1. Oh no, we can't make this one AT work differently! Sure they can. It is already the most unique AT, taking away 1 choice at lvl 1 would not be the end of the world. In general, I think having crappy or redundant powers for the first 2 in a primary is poor design(not as bad as locked in first secondary, though, that's just rotten). If they're going to be made obsolete by other powers later, then spread them out more so that they aren't part of your very limited choices at lvls 1-4, or just make it a better power.
The attacks are balanced AGAINST the pets. In simple terms, they want an AT to have X damage capability. Since pets are strong, anything else must be weak. If they make personal attacks stronger, they must make pets weaker or damage potential goes up. I don't believe anyone right now thinks MM damage overall is too low.
I said they should remove them because it was poor design to put them there in the first place, definitely 3 of them. If they are in there, they're balanced correctly now. There are sets on other ATs with an absolutely abysmal power, but rarely more than 1. MM primaries have 3, 3 which in addition to being bad(by necessity), do not make a lot of sense in the context of how MMs are designed to play. If they had 1 attack each, for that situation described where all your pets are dead, that would be acceptable. 3? That's probably the single worst piece of AT design that exists in this game. At this point, anyway.
As far as primary vs pool vs app, you're right, it's inconsistent. The devs are not particularly great at thinking through all the possibilities and corner cases. Once those are pointed out to them, even money on if they will be adjusted.
Quote:
The damage of the attacks is balanced against the pets, but their End cost is not. The End cost of the attacks is, by design, imbalanced, in order to pay for the fact that pet attacks don't cost you any End. But that solution isn't balanced, because you don't HAVE to take the attacks. The End cost for your Secondary is balanced to pay for the pets, and that's balanced because you CAN'T avoid taking your Secondary. You are forced to take one at level 1, and it is more difficult to support your pets without them.|
Originally Posted by Ryuuk
The attacks are balanced AGAINST the pets. In simple terms, they want an AT to have X damage capability. Since pets are strong, anything else must be weak. If they make personal attacks stronger, they must make pets weaker or damage potential goes up. I don't believe anyone right now thinks MM damage overall is too low.
|
Let me give a hypothetical example that I think explains this issue. Let's say that tommorow, the devs announce that they have made the following change to Blasters:
- The first three Blaster attacks have had their damage cut in half. The Endurance cost of these attacks, instead of being similarly reduced by half, have instead been increased by 25%.
- All other Blaster attacks now cost no Endurance. That includes Aim, the control powers that do little damage and apply a status effect, and even the Tier 9. (The End crash still remains, but it costs no End to cast, and you can continue to attack since none of your attacks cost any End)
- To answer complaints from the Beta testers, the second attack you gain at level 1 has been replaced by the Targetted AoE attack from the set. This has no End cost, as stated above. The replaced attack has been moved to later in the set.
1) Would you consider this balanced?
2) What do you feel would be the most likely result of this change? Would you consider it likely that one week after this was released, few Blasters would still have those three attacks?
3) Most importantly, if very few Blasters still have those three attacks, are they accomplishing the task of "paying" for the attacks the Blaster is getting for no End cost?
That would just be poor design in and of itself, which is the problem with MM primaries. Your example doesn't work however, because all those blaster attacks are used in the same way, and compete for spots in your attack chain all the time. For MMs, those 3 attacks are on top of their main source of damage, pets, and operate parallel to it, since they can use those attacks while the pets attack.
If you had said something like, "what if spines had 3 different damage auras that were free and did great damage, but all the attacks were low damage and high end?" that would have made more sense, since attacks and auras are more or less "independent" sources of damage. It would still be a poor way to design a set.
A few things I wanted to comment on:
Quote:
While this is true, consider the subjective circumstances - my henchmen fire attacks of their own choosing and of their own volition. I cannot command them to do, say, Burst. I can only command them to attack. HOW they attack, I have no control over. And with six of them, I genuinely DON'T KNOW what it is that they do and how much damage each one inflicts. I can't keep track of individual attacks on individual pets. All I know is how much all pets together do, because all pets together is what I always see.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Keep in mind, your attacks do no more and no less damage than those of your henchmen. Individual attack and henchman compared to individual attack and henchman, your Tier 1s are probably doing less damage per attack than you, and your Tier 3 somewhat more (he gets the big attacks like Knockout Blow) but all examples are trivial compared to the damage any other Archetype could do with the same attack.
Your henchmen are doing trivial damage too, but they still carry rifles, pistols, swords and beam cannons. No one protests that those attacks should be "support" because they do such minimal damage. Primarily because that damage does not come as a single attack, but as a volley from a squad of attackers. |
By contrast, I know what MY attacks do. Almost every time I've tried fighting on my own with my Masterminds (which is usually when I meet a lone minion roaming around), I feel like an utter gimp, because I'm almost fighting for my life. Even survivability notwithstanding, taking on lieutenants by myself is not just a bad idea, it is pointless as my damage barely even registers.
Now, I'm not saying that this means my attacks deal too little damage, but more that I'm much more aware of it than the fact that my pets' attacks deal little damage. With them, I can't "feel" it. With me, I'm keenly aware. Again, that's not to say I want more damage, but rather that if I'm aware my attacks suck, but I'm also aware they have strong debuffs, then they no longer "feel" like attacks and so should no longer LOOK like attacks.
Do you know how much of a cocktease the Robotics Pulse Rifle is? That thing has AWESOME attacks... Only I know they'll never be decent
Quote:
|
See? And this reflects my own experience, even when I'm just using the Vet attacks. Certainly the cost of summoning and upgrading the henchmen is high in End cost, you must typically take time to recover before you are ready to fight at full capacity after summoning or resummoning your henchmen. And as Samuel said, no one is suggesting giving Masterminds an End cost reduction across the board. The question is whether or not the End cost for the attacks, specifically, is adding to the inefficiency of the attacks as compared to the Mastermind's other Powers in general. |
Hyperbole aside, I just don't think Mastermind attacks have enough worth as they are now. If we can't improve their value (and we can't), then the least we can do is lower their cost. I mean, discount games usually suck, hey - if you can pick up a mediocre game for a dollar, why not? All I'm saying is that Mastermind attacks, at the levels of damage they have now, don't really deserve the cost they have been given.
Quote:
| Another suggestion I have seen in the past is that as a Mastermind loses henchmen, his attacks get stronger to compensate. This seems counterproductive, we should probably not encourage Masterminds NOT to summon their henchmen, but it would help petless Masterminds, and Masterminds that are in the situation of having to recover from a henchman wipe. Attacks really WOULD become useful under such a circumstance. |
I mean, seriously - with three attacks, the lowest health of any AT and no self-protection powers, how much can we worry about Masterminds going solo?
As far as encouraging a Mastermind to not summon henchmen... Well, I liken this to the Defender damage buff. It's not so much incentive for them to not team as it is a little bit of help when they invariably find themselves solo. A Mastermind will, for various reasons, end up petless from time to time. I don't see a problem with giving him a little boost in these situations.
In fact, such a boost might make the low levels a little less boring. I can't tell you how tedious levels 1-6 are, just sitting on your hands watching one henchmen cycling one attack. Ugh! And even with two henchmen and an upgrade, there's still a lot of waiting around. I always try to pitch in, but it'd be nice if I could help out more while my henchmen are still few and weak.
In fact... You know what else? Sometimes, just for fun, I'll summon only my boss-level henchman - usually the Commando - and walk around with just him as my bodyguard. He's strong enough to cap stray minions and tangle with lieutenants on his own, and it'd be nice if I could pitch in with my own Redding Rail Rifle.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Total non-starter due to the cottage rule, but I don't think MM primaries should have attacks at all. They can't get good or even mediocre attacks because their pets are so powerful, and as stated why have near-useless powers in any set, much less 3 of them? If an MM really wants attacks, he can go to pools or APPs, just like any other AT has to do to get powers outside of their normal purview.
Those 3 powers could be more unique and thematic powers for each set. Currently, every set gets 1(gang war, serum, etc.), and for the most part those are fun, useful powers. Maybe necro could get an enemy rez into a pet, or maybe a high self auto resist to negative energy, since they are so attuned to death. Bots could get a gestalt power that ate some of your existing henchmen and summoned a stronger one for a short period of time, or maybe a robot double that looks like your character and functions as a decoy like phantasm has. Just some fun, thematic stuff that goes better with the AT's design than attacks which have to be bad for balance reasons.
Sadly, not to be, maybe something for them to keep in mind for coh2. Or they could get really radical and grandfather in existing MMs with attacks...