One of the benefits of using IOs is that you don't have to buy new enhancements every five levels. Giving that benefit to SOs makes it less likely that players will experiment with IOs. Players not experimenting with IOs do not learn the awesomeness of sets, set bonuses, frankenslotting, and the market.
/no.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Is that really enough of a benefit to offset the grinding for inf that a new player has to experience?
Grinding inf? You might have trouble outfitting yourself with SOs at 22 and maybe 27 if you've been buying TOs and DOs, but the inf for a full compliment of SOs is easy to come by.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
We need more influence sinks not fewer.
SO that never got old, would add further to the ever increasing amount of inf in circulation.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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But my point is that we're taking the inf from the wrong people. We need to get more from the people that have it all saved up, not the newbies.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
We need more influence sinks not fewer.
SO that never got old, would add further to the ever increasing amount of inf in circulation. |
To take more inf out of circulation, add in EXPENSIVE vendors. Maybe a purple recipe vendor, that sells purples for 200 million inf each? And maybe sells respec recipes for 100 million inf as well? Or make a machine that gives a buff for a whole month, at a cost of 500 million inf... there are lots of possibilities. But they should target the people that have inf to spare, not the beginners.
You've got a reasonable point about the new player experience.
If a new player chose to vendor everything they got as drops they could still run out of money for SOs.
A simpler solution to this would be to drop the price of SOs. They're no longer the top item they used to be, I doubt it would hurt to make them half of their current price. Their role as an inf sink is minor compared to the amount of inf thrown around by high end players.
And I'd be quite happy if they dropped the "Alchemy" combine screen altogether. I recently got my Pain Corrupter duo to 18 before reslotting, and had to click for every single enhancement, which got pretty tiresome. The extra 1 or 2% value Ive got ina few enahncmenets for the next level isn't really worth it.
Actually, although many don't like the 'alchemy window', I find it's just underused. If there was more 'stuff' to it, maybe people wouldn't toss it aside as a nuisance.
What if you could somehow 'craft' enhancements you actually want from stuff that drops? So if you're doing missions where Tech Origins drop but you're a mutant, and the mission bonus drop you got is a SO mutant slow enhancement but you don't have any slow powers...maybe you can 'sacrifice' the mutant slow SO to change one of the tech SOs to mutation through the 'alchemy window'.
Even adjust the chances so it's easier to change stuff into your origin than the others.
Results:
-something else to do with the underused 'alchemy window'
-alternate, yet not overwhelming, option to buying all your SOs for cheaper slotting
-doesn't insert more inf into the economy because it also removes loot pieces
-kind of makes origins have an alternate purpose
TOs, DOs and SOs are working as intended and inf is ridiculously easy to come by in this game. I see nothing broken that needs fixing, myself, and no problem that this would alleviate.
/unsigned
Dec out.
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Grinding for inf? What game are you playing? Almost all my characters have over a million influence by level ten to thirteen, because I sell everything on the market for 15 inf (unless it regularly sells for less than 50 inf, in which case, I vendor it and get more than market price |
Originally Posted by Cayenne
Is that really enough of a benefit to offset the grinding for inf that a new player has to experience?
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)By the time I'm ready for SOs, I typically have more than five million inf, which is enough to buy two to four whole sets of SOs (depending on your powers/slotting). Of course, being that I'm not a newbie player, I don't slot SOs, I slot level 25 IOs and then skip the whole "re-enhancing every five levels thing".
Even if I were a newbie player and slotted new SOs every five levels, I shouldn't have any problem since I'm not using my drops, which means the only thing I can do with them is sell them. And selling everything on the market typically nets you far more than is necessary to replenish SOs every five levels.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I remember, before the market was introduced, I had to occasionally stop leveling and fight weaker enemies so that I wouldn't level up too fast but still got drops to sell, and this was just to afford SOs the 2nd round at lvl 27. Now, not every character had to do this, but the scrapper characters I made usually outlvled their enhancements faster than they'd get inf to replace them.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Even if I were a newbie player and slotted new SOs every five levels, I shouldn't have any problem since I'm not using my drops, which means the only thing I can do with them is sell them. And selling everything on the market typically nets you far more than is necessary to replenish SOs every five levels. |
If a player isn't taking full advantage of the market but the vendors instead, I could imagine there being issues with inf.
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If a player isn't selling stuff on the market, I don't have a lot of sympathy for them unless they don't know it's there. But considering the buildings are HUGE and brightly lit blue side, and typically in conspicuous spots red side, there's no reason for a player to not know it's there before they get to SOs.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I remember, before the market was introduced, I had to occasionally stop leveling and fight weaker enemies so that I wouldn't level up too fast but still got drops to sell, and this was just to afford SOs the 2nd round at lvl 27. Now, not every character had to do this, but the scrapper characters I made usually outlvled their enhancements faster than they'd get inf to replace them.
If a player isn't taking full advantage of the market but the vendors instead, I could imagine there being issues with inf. |
It's far more likely for a player to get to SO range and not know they can buy SOs from stores (I have personally seen this many times in new players, up to and including level 30-something characters subsisting off of drops alone, or even buying TOs from the regular quartermasters redside (that was fun to explain the terribad idea of to that newbie) above DO levels) than it is for the player to not know the market is there.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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The only people in this game that are suffering from a lack of influence are the AE babies that rush to get powerleveled to level 50 then realize they can't afford to buy enhancements because they didn't spend any time earning any.
A regular player be he vet or newb has more inf than they know what to do with by level 10.
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And once GR hits players won't even have the excuse that it's hard to get stuff on the market redside because everything will be merged.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
It's far more likely for a player to get to SO range and not know they can buy SOs from stores (I have personally seen this many times in new players, up to and including level 30-something characters subsisting off of drops alone, or even buying TOs from the regular quartermasters redside (that was fun to explain the terribad idea of to that newbie) above DO levels) than it is for the player to not know the market is there.
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Hmm, on my first character I knew WW was there but it was scary... then, so was teaming and practically every social interaction. I was nervous of getting it wrong and looking like a newb. Now, I constantly get it wrong but just don't care. |
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
If a player isn't selling stuff on the market, I don't have a lot of sympathy for them unless they don't know it's there. But considering the buildings are HUGE and brightly lit blue side, and typically in conspicuous spots red side, there's no reason for a player to not know it's there before they get to SOs.
It's far more likely for a player to get to SO range and not know they can buy SOs from stores (I have personally seen this many times in new players, up to and including level 30-something characters subsisting off of drops alone, or even buying TOs from the regular quartermasters redside (that was fun to explain the terribad idea of to that newbie) above DO levels) than it is for the player to not know the market is there. |
I didn't use WW untill well into the higher levels and he was still slotted with SO's untill recently when I started adding IO sets. ... Must finish that...
Most of the arguments against this are of the 'if they have this problem they're doing it wrong', but I have seen people with this problem. Telling them they're doing it wrong is a terrible idea! We want them to stay and play, not leave because it was too hard or because people called them stupid... we NEED more new players, new players are what keeps games like this alive.
Don't confuse new players with too many options that don't really add a lot to the game for the amount of effort they take to understand. Most experienced players ignore the SO/DO/TO system entirely, in favor of the IO system.
To succeed, make it hard to fail. Right now, the amount of detail in the enhancements is really too much for what they do. Arguably, IOs should have taken the special names that the DOs and SOs have... crafting an Accuracy IO isn't as fun as crafting a single-origin Benedict Tech Adv. Targeting Eye would have been. In any case, something with this much detail should be far more central to the way the characters are handled, like it used to be before the IO system was introduced.
DOs and SOs aren't special anymore. Let's simplify them, so that people can spend more time on the things that ARE special!
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Regarding enhancement names: People tend to complain about the names of certain origins' SOs not being informative. What should I reasonably expect Polonium Exposure to do again? I have to right-click most of the list in the Science store and a fair portion of the Magic SO list.|
Originally Posted by Cayenne
To succeed, make it hard to fail. Right now, the amount of detail in the enhancements is really too much for what they do. Arguably, IOs should have taken the special names that the DOs and SOs have... crafting an Accuracy IO isn't as fun as crafting a single-origin Benedict Tech Adv. Targeting Eye would have been. In any case, something with this much detail should be far more central to the way the characters are handled, like it used to be before the IO system was introduced.
DOs and SOs aren't special anymore. Let's simplify them, so that people can spend more time on the things that ARE special! |
Sure they're color-coded, but I find Def and Resist to look similar at the stores. Luckily, I'm not color-blind.
"Accuracy: Benedict Tech Adv. Tareting Eye" might be a better compromise, IMO.
Common IOs should retain thier simple names. They're the starter set for crafting. Set IOs have thier own naming in place. "Crushing Impact: Damage/Recharge" works for me.
cayenne learn to use the search feature. this was already covered to make enhancements easier.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=227332
Ah, thank you SO much for pointing that out, AND insulting my intelligence at the same time. It was too tempting to do that rather than just post a quick pointer, wasn't it?
On top of that, it's talking about the icons, and I'm talking about removing TO/DO/SO levels. This doesn't seem relevant.
that is perfectly relevant to this thread. in your last post before BBQ, you mention the same exact things that are in the thread i linked. and honestly, thinking that the enhancements turn people away from the game is... stupid.
all it takes is asking questions in game or comming to the forums. there has to be some sort of challenges to keep people interested. that is what retains customers. not making everything easy.
edit: by the way, i'm not syaing you are stupid. just that thinking the idea that enhancements are what makes people leave is stupid. and actually, i never insulted your intelligence. just pointed out to search first and learn how to utilize it if you didn't know. then i simply stated that some/all of what you said was covered in that thread.
edit x2: oh, and by the way, enhancemnets can be gotten in the AE for tickets. so where does the money problems come in again?
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Don't misunderstand me, I'm not advocating that we should change the names of the DOs and SOs at this point, just that we remove the level mechanic. This would simplify a lot of vendors' lists, as instead of having to wade through up to four sets of each, you would need only one of each. (Rikti War Zone store, I'm looking at you! Market, you too!) |
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
Regarding enhancement names: People tend to complain about the names of certain origins' SOs not being informative. What should I reasonably expect Polonium Exposure to do again? I have to right-click most of the list in the Science store and a fair portion of the Magic SO list.
Sure they're color-coded, but I find Def and Resist to look similar at the stores. Luckily, I'm not color-blind. "Accuracy: Benedict Tech Adv. Tareting Eye" might be a better compromise, IMO. Common IOs should retain thier simple names. They're the starter set for crafting. Set IOs have thier own naming in place. "Crushing Impact: Damage/Recharge" works for me. |
Simply having the choice of TO, DO, and SO is granular enough for the game, we don't really need 30-50 versions of each.
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Let's get back on track. Don't get too upset at Sharker's tone of voice. Let's focus on the topic.|
Originally Posted by Cayenne
Ah, thank you SO much for pointing that out, AND insulting my intelligence at the same time. It was too tempting to do that rather than just post a quick pointer, wasn't it?
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Are you primarily worried about the amount of $Inf on a lowbie character as they head towards the better enhancements later?
Perhaps an upward adjustment on the sell-back prices of TOs and DOs would be a better solution. It would be less invasive than removing the decay on non-crafted enhancements, and (mostly) only affect the lower levels of play. By the time you get to L25, selling Recipe and Salvage drops at the Market would far outstrip anything you would get selling stuff at the NPC stores. But in those pre-teen levels, the NPC stores (a.k.a. Vendors) would give you more $inf than they currently do.
I would rather not go into this, but I will: If you wish to peruse the Market forum, you can find out exactly how easy it is to make millions in the very low levels with relative ease without having to be a master marketeer. But in the case of the "New Player" (term not fully defined), this might not be obvious, so let's stick to more traditional forms of $inf gain:
1) Selling drops at the Vendors. IMO, In the case of SET Recipes and Salvage, the first time that you try to sell these to a Vendor, you should get a pop-up saying "Are you sure? You might get a better vale selling this at the Market." (then never get this pop-up again)
2) Selling drops at the Market at "dump it NAO!" prices. Even if you dump everything IO-related at the Market for an asking price of 5 $Inf, you'll quickly accumulate wealth as the highest outstanding bid will snap up your item...if there's any Demand for it. Otherwise, yes, you're better off Vendoring it. See: Supply and Demand, as per your High School Economics class. (even an old fogie like me can remember that far back.
)Sharker's point that Enhancements can be bought at the AE stands. It would not be obvious however, to the new player until they actually played an AE mission and wandered upstairs to see what tickets could be redeemed for.
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There is a HUGE logical step between players experimenting with Inventions and players experimenting with SET Inventions. People who make the step from SOs to Inventions step into Commons first, and it's not safe to assume they will step into Sets next.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
One of the benefits of using IOs is that you don't have to buy new enhancements every five levels. Giving that benefit to SOs makes it less likely that players will experiment with IOs. Players not experimenting with IOs do not learn the awesomeness of sets, set bonuses, frankenslotting, and the market.
/no. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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actually, i got into sets after the first one dropped on me. that lead me to the market which after some research, netted me quite a nice profit. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
There is a HUGE logical step between players experimenting with Inventions and players experimenting with SET Inventions. People who make the step from SOs to Inventions step into Commons first, and it's not safe to assume they will step into Sets next.
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Only if you walk up to them and yell "WRONG!" It becomes a GOOD idea when you walk up to them and say, "Hey, I can show you a much easier way to do that." Every game is different. Learning how each one works in particular is normal and expected.
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Cayenne mistakes tone: Most of the arguments against this are of the 'if they have this problem they're doing it wrong', but I have seen people with this problem. Telling them they're doing it wrong is a terrible idea! |
Dec out.
I think we should get rid of levels for normal SO, DO, and TO enhancements, and possibly HO as well. As it stands right now, new players have the majority of their inf drained away by enhancing every few levels. Why not just have level-less TO, DO, and SO? They would always be even-level, and would never expire. DO and SO could still be limited by the character's level. We could get rid of the silly 'alchemy' screen!
The effect on more experienced players would be minor, since they won't be spending the majority of their inf on enhancements in any case... most experienced players use IOs anyhow. This would make it easier on new players.
Any thoughts? Drawbacks I'm not seeing?