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What if neither had Tough? That puts Fire at roughly 48.1% S/L res, and Ice at 0 S/L res.
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Oh god, now I have to go start up my python script again! 
Actually now that I have had a coke, I'm not so sure about my caveat.... grrrr... stupid brain! (i still think fire comes out slightly ahead for higher con mobs, but ice for lower-even con ones. I have to double check, because I don't remember the exact results anymore)
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I think this is a good idea, DO as far as it goes, but I think the pentad team is a bit too small to get the most out of it.
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Don't kid yourself there. The pentad, and in fact any 5 character team is exactly the sort of testing the devs want to see. Especially Statesman.
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I'll take your word for that, Circeus, you've never steered us wrong yet.
Luminera, I don't think he was implying that he used DP more than once in the same battle. My guess is that he was talking about using it more than once in the entire mission.
If a single-spawn battle goes 7-9 minutes with a bunch of +2 Carnies, you're going down.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
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The "consensus" isn't so much that Tanks aren't meatshields, its more that, if that's the role the devs want Tanks to play in the game, they've not provided the proper tools for doing so with a reasonable modicum of success. At least not one that makes a Tanks participation in a team environment more palatable that any other AT.
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The intent of the testing isnt clear to me at this point. Its somewhat difficult for me to keep on top of the separate discussions/opinions/decisions within the thread. I think TomTrumpinski wants to show that a tank can be replaced by any other AT in a team and the team will perform better - thats how Im reading his posts. Im not sure if hes saying that means a tank is still a meatshield or not, though he did say we had moved beyond the scranker/meatshield roles, without it being clear to me what exactly hes pointing to as the tanks role then.
To put it a different way, I think the devs havent changed their stance that tanks are meatshields, but what they mean by meatshields appears to have changed. Whereas before, meatshield meant take all or almost all of the aggro for an entire team, now it means take more aggro than anyone else on the team. So are we trying to show that the meatshield concept is still a good one, but the amount of team aggro a tank can take is insufficient? Or are we trying to show that the meatshield concept is obsolete? Or is it something else?
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Overall, testing with a bugged core power in a powerset invalidates the test. Wait until they get the bug fixed, then either include Invuln in the test, and if you've already run it, go back and test Invuln
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Certainly doing the testing with a bugged power isnt the way Id prefer it, but I think its better than ignoring invul altogether. Of course I dont have any hard numbers, but it seems to me that invuls still make up a higher percentage of team tanks than any other primary. If were trying to demonstrate something that is applicable to all or most tanks, particularly in a team setting, then its kind of hard to omit Invuls, unless a convincing argument can be made that Invul w/o US will be a lot Ice. I guess it depends on how quickly the devs get around to fixing the bug.
What about Weave and a 3 slotted tough hide, would that give the same numbers as if INVINC were going at 1.5% per mob?
Prof
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What about Weave and a 3 slotted tough hide, would that give the same numbers as if INVINC were going at 1.5% per mob?
Prof
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Weave burns End like a forest fire burns timber. And no it wouldn't do enough to represent it. Espically since an ED tanker will likely have Tough Hide anyway so you would be replacing Invinc with TH. Its hard to deal with a known borked power in a test it throws all kinds of unclear results around that can confuse the issue. I would love to test Inv but for now I really think its best we skip it, for now. Lets go in with things with know are working "as intended" and work from there.
This is my Fire/Fire tank's build. I tend to try and keep aggro with my few single target attacks between letting off my AoEs. I also favor burst damage thus I have both build up and fiery embrace. Tough is there as it fits my guys tough guy, bar brawling, cigar smoking image.
Exported from version 1.5A of CoH Planner
http://joechott.com/coh
Archetype: Tanker
Primary Powers - Ranged : Fiery Aura
Secondary Powers - Support : Fiery Melee
01 : Scorch endred(01) acc(25)
01 : Fire Shield endred(01) damres(3) damres(7) damres(7)
02 : Blazing Aura endred(02) acc(3)
04 : Healing Flames recred(04) recred(5) recred(5) hel(9) hel(23) hel(27)
06 : Combat Jumping defbuf(06)
08 : Consume acc(08) recred(9) recred(27)
10 : Combustion endred(10) dam(11) acc(11) recred(17) dam(17) dam(23)
12 : Plasma Shield recred(12) damres(13) damres(13) damres(15)
14 : Super Jump jmp(14) jmp(15)
16 : Swift runspd(16)
18 : Health hel(18) hel(19) hel(19)
20 : Stamina endrec(20) endrec(21) endrec(21)
22 : Acrobatics endred(22)
24 : Boxing endred(24) acc(25)
26 : Fiery Embrace recred(26)
28 : Fire Sword Circle endred(28) acc(29) recred(29) dam(31) dam(31) dam(31)
30 : Tough damres(30)
32 : Build Up recred(32)
-------------------------------------------
01 : Brawl acc(01)
01 : Sprint runspd(01)
02 : Rest recred(02)
Here is my Rad/Rad. He too has tough because of his story. By the way I took his name form the list of scientists that actually worked on the Manhatten Project and worked it into his story. He actually plays more offender but note I really have not skipped on his primary, if anything his secondary could use more love, and come levels 35 and 38 it will get just that.
Exported from version 1.5A of CoH Planner
http://joechott.com/coh
Archetype: Defender
Primary Powers - Ranged : Radiation Emission
Secondary Powers - Support : Radiation Blast
01 : Neutrino Bolt acc(01) dam(13) dam(13) dam(27)
01 : Radiation Infection endred(01) endred(3) endred(3) thtdbf(11) thtdbf(15) thtdbf(15)
02 : Accelerate Metabolism recred(02) recred(5) recred(7) endrec(23) endrec(25) endrec(27)
04 : Irradiate acc(04) recred(5) dam(9) dam(9) dam(11)
06 : Enervating Field endred(06) endred(7)
08 : Swift runspd(08)
10 : Combat Jumping defbuf(10)
12 : Lingering Radiation recred(12) acc(25)
14 : Super Jump jmp(14) jmp(23)
16 : Radiant Aura endred(16) hel(17) recred(17) hel(19) hel(19)
18 : Health hel(18)
20 : Stamina endrec(20) endrec(21) endrec(21)
22 : Acrobatics endred(22)
24 : Boxing acc(24)
26 : Mutation recred(26)
28 : Tough damres(28) damres(29) damres(29)
30 : Cosmic Burst recred(30) acc(31) dam(31) dam(31)
32 : EMP Pulse acc(32)
-------------------------------------------
01 : Brawl acc(01)
01 : Sprint runspd(01)
02 : Rest recred(02)
I post these so if anyone has any big issues with the builds we can deal with it before the tests, not after. I do want these tests to be as open and fairly done as possible.
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I haven't played my tanks a lot since ED, but in my limited experience in a team with my L31 Stone/Axe, my role has been to take the alpha strike, and then play scrapper. I can take an alpha strike, as long as the rest of the team immediately follows me in and takes some of the aggro off. I can push out the damage - not as well as a real scrapper, but with Axe my damage is respectable, and the knockdown helps too.
What I can't do any more is take all the aggro, all the time. And if we make a mistake and aggro a second group, I run like everyone else. Tanker's role? A poor man's Phantom Army, useful only for deflecting alpha strikes and doing mediocre damage.
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This would be my finding. I was playing my INV\Ice Tank the other day in a group of 8. If i jumped in, dropped an Ice Patch, jumped back out and let everyone else do thei r jobs it went well. If I stayed in the fight, I got killed.
My Fire\Fire Tank seems to last a longer, but he also has a higher damage output.
The days of moving in a ticking off the entire mob are gone, play smaller groups, and control them better. Success seems to follow that way.
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A reply to Tom:
May I request also that if/when you run your tests, you get some of the not-so-great tanks as well.
The all-star line up going to test this might set the bar a bit too high for lower lights, like myself 
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This put a smile on my face because it's one of the things that people bring up a lot, and did with the I5 tests.
Since we will be running comparison tests with the minimum differences between the runs, it won't make any real difference in how skilled the players are as long as they are all about the same skill level. It's almost impossible to assemble a team of less than stellar players because folks who don't read the boards and worry about things like this just don't go to the test server.
It looks like I'm going to aim for the 26th and/or 27th of November for the tests. Da5id, I'd like you to think about what parameters would make the best test--what level to run it at, which enemies, any limitations on the construction of the rest of the team. You're probably the biggest proponent of the hypothesis that we're trying to prove or disprove, so it is essential to have your input on this.
Any time you have an AT or powerset that can be replaced by ANY other and improve your team you have a problem.
Any time you have an AT or powerset that can replace ANY other and improve your team you have a problem.
If that isn't too long, it'd make a great .sig.
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if you like Tom, I can run around like a Bananahead and try to screw it up. I'll still kill, but i'll also do my best tro scatter 'em
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Support doesn't occur in a continuous scale or gradient. It occurs in discrete steps. The difference between scrapper and tanker survival is smaller than the difference between one of these steps.
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Sorry if I am not stating it clearly enough for you, Aqshy. Da5id's example is really the best way to look at it. I know that a Tanker can take more damage than a Scrapper, however, the difference in how much doesn't matter when you add in support.
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Yeah, I agree with you.
That example of tanking made by the main tank we should all be looking up to.....Hilarious! hehehehe.....hehehe.....he 
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The "consensus" isn't so much that Tanks aren't meatshields, its more that, if that's the role the devs want Tanks to play in the game, they've not provided the proper tools for doing so with a reasonable modicum of success. At least not one that makes a Tanks participation in a team environment more palatable that any other AT.
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The intent of the testing isnt clear to me at this point. Its somewhat difficult for me to keep on top of the separate discussions/opinions/decisions within the thread. I think TomTrumpinski wants to show that a tank can be replaced by any other AT in a team and the team will perform better - thats how Im reading his posts. Im not sure if hes saying that means a tank is still a meatshield or not, though he did say we had moved beyond the scranker/meatshield roles, without it being clear to me what exactly hes pointing to as the tanks role then.
To put it a different way, I think the devs havent changed their stance that tanks are meatshields, but what they mean by meatshields appears to have changed. Whereas before, meatshield meant take all or almost all of the aggro for an entire team, now it means take more aggro than anyone else on the team. So are we trying to show that the meatshield concept is still a good one, but the amount of team aggro a tank can take is insufficient? Or are we trying to show that the meatshield concept is obsolete? Or is it something else?
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Overall, testing with a bugged core power in a powerset invalidates the test. Wait until they get the bug fixed, then either include Invuln in the test, and if you've already run it, go back and test Invuln
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Certainly doing the testing with a bugged power isnt the way Id prefer it, but I think its better than ignoring invul altogether. Of course I dont have any hard numbers, but it seems to me that invuls still make up a higher percentage of team tanks than any other primary. If were trying to demonstrate something that is applicable to all or most tanks, particularly in a team setting, then its kind of hard to omit Invuls, unless a convincing argument can be made that Invul w/o US will be a lot Ice. I guess it depends on how quickly the devs get around to fixing the bug.
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skeelos, I'm a scientist in real life. I am not trying to prove anything, specifically. If I was, I would be worried about biasing the test. What I am trying to do is get an unbiased test under very controlled circumstances to see if anything is really obvious. Some of us suspect that some things might be true, but I am keeping my mind as open as possible.
There's some of the best remaining tanks in the game in this forum. They also range across the whole spectrum of levels, playstyles and powersets. If we get data that points us in one direction or another, we can start down that path and see where it leads us.
In addition, as Da5id said, this could be a lot of fun. And one thing that's been missing in this forum has been fun for the last couple of months.
We should approach this like pros and think of as many angles as possible before we assemble the teams.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
If possible I'll help. After all someone has to represent the Scranker division. 
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
I have a 50 Inv/SS and a 50 Fire/Fire that I can use here (assuming I can get to test now). Depending on when we plan to do this.
Hmm...I'm still not quite sure on how well this is going to represent how balanced the tanker role is as a whole, since the people who post here are probably better versed with how to play their characters than most other players you run across. However, I'm still anxoiusly awaiting the results, since it sounds like fun.
Save the drama for yo' mama.
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I am not trying to prove anything, specifically. If I was, I would be worried about biasing the test. What I am trying to do is get an unbiased test under very controlled circumstances to see if anything is really obvious.
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Okay, make room for me. I've got a 50 invuln/ss. If the tests aren't limited to tanks only, but more of an examination of how the tanker role is filled and what ATs/powersets might overshadow it, then my 32 warshade (tri-form) and 41 dark/dark defender (pet/pocket tank) would also be good test subjects. And I can throw in the 33 TA/A defender for team filler or whatever (which would also be a good area of study, finding out whether or not tanking requires a healing defender).
Well, it's been a while since I have visited these boards and I have a feeling that I have hit this thread too late to have a hope of Statesman actually reading this post but I have an urgent need to chuck two cents into this discussion.
I have always agreed with Foo and Nozy about Tanks not working right but I think I have let my "Give us Comic Book Bricks" Union fees lapse but hopefully Foo and Nozy will forgive me and let me in on this discussion
So States it was an interesting test you ran and I appreciate the time that you have spent. However I would like you to run a slightly different test on your special Dev server.
Put together a similar team and run some missions.
Now change your tank for an equal level Brute and run the same missions and then answer this simple question honestly - what was more fun?
And sorry for replying to your message Iron_Vixen, but you were conveniently on the last page.
I would be highly interested in observing this test. My own personal reasons are that I want to watch multiple tanks doing what they perceive their roles to be, and observing the playstyle of different people. I think this has the potential to suggest future tactics on how to handle various spawns.
A few demorecords would be great for interested people who can't make it or won't fit in the mission.
I'd love to help as well. However, my main tank is an invul/fire, who's happily and shamelessly making use of the bugged invincibility to survive running into the center of spawns to do his job (take alpha and 85% or more of the aggro and keep it and live) until they fix it - so I'd probably invalidate the test with my normal playstyle. 
I won't mind turning invinc off entirely to try it out. I predict having to trigger unstoppable every other tough spawn to survive and delaying the team, lowering xp gain rate or being completely unnecessary as an AT a result.
I do also have a very unplayed lvl 33 stone/stone tauntbot who is in dire need of a respec, but can do exemp'ing of 50s and give it a shot at tanking also.
Do add me to the list of helpers, I'll likely be able to make the 25th or the 27th, will have to check back closer to date to see if I can make the 26th.
Invictus Est Level 50 Invul/Fire Tank
Malentis Level 50 Ice/Energy/Leviathan Dom (Freedom)
Black Jeremiah Level 50 Fire/Fire/Mu Dom
Sejanna Level 50 Dark/Dark/Elec Def (Virtue)
Arc #119664 - The MiniMech Cometh - Hess TF Mini-Sequel
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Now change your tank for an equal level Brute and run the same missions and then answer this simple question honestly - what was more fun?
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Hey BL, haven't seen ya in a while. 
At this point, I honestly think a Brute is the best way to go. If you picked up CoV go get your SMASH!! on.
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Do add me to the list of helpers,
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Not sure if I have any that could lend a hand here or not. My 50 DM/Regen scrapper is doing requests currently, as is my 47 Invuln/EM tank. Aside from that I have a mid 30's Fire/Rad 'troller that I haven't played since before the changes to controller holds. A ~27 Dark/Dark Defender. Nothing else of a level that would be a big help.
I was talking to a buddy of mine and got a good explanation of the difference between a Tanker and a Scranker.
A Tanker is there for the long haul. They are prepared to be there as long as the fight lasts. They are prepared for everything that can go wrong and prepare to deal with problems before they happen.
A Scranker looks at a battle as having a death clock. Time is your enemy the longer the battle goes the more they are allowed to hurt you. A scranker wants to end the fight fast and the faster the better. The faster the battle the less things go wrong and the sooner your victory.
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
I can chuck my 50 inv/ss into the mix... for whatver we are talking about...
some kinda test far as I can gather without going back cuz I am tired and lazy
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When the bug is fixed, Invuln not using Unstoppable will look/function a lot like an Ice Tanker. Only Invuln will be better at Smash/Lethal/Fire, and Ice will be better at Energy/Negative/Cold. Ice will be better at Solo play, and larger mob groupings and higher level mobs is where Invuln will outperform.
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And all this time we have felt Ice needed help. Instead of fixing Ice they gutted Invuln and Fire and pre-GA Stoners. GA is going to be the best stable tank (with some drawbacks, but GA gives exactly what we need to tank, making the drawbacks easily palatable for team tanking). Unstop is great for some situations, but some it will just not work.
And this poses the question about Fire's performance now. If Invuln and Ice are both going to be poor now. What about Fire? My conversations with da5id have put Fire below Inv and Ice barring fire damage. This is truely sad when Fire lost so much offense to Burn getting hit so hard.
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Actually, I never found burn all that useful. It had been respecced out long before ED. It had a slow animation and a small AoE. Maintaining Burn cost me consistent use of FSC and Combustion, both of which with a much wider AoE, thus making both acquired a lot more Aggro. Burn eventually became that "Wait, I have another damage power somewhere here," for the rare times I had nothing recharged. I dropped Burn and Healing Flames for Build Up and Acrobatics.
Doing that eased the burden on my brother's controller (he no longer had to keep my density increased so fanatically to make sure I didn't bounce around) and vastly increased my damage ability (Build Up+Fiery Embrace) which, in turn, means I get a lot of early attention and pretty much never lose aggro. Dropping Healing Flames has gotten me in a bit of trouble and probably increased the burden on our healer, but I intend to add that back in at 32 (I won't get Rise until later).
I agree that, without Defense, a Fire tank is less effective than other sorts of tanks. They are a scrapper hybrid, certainly, and survive on speed of kill rather than on being able to weather a heavy storm like the others. Tough is useful, but the real additions a Fire tank should consider are Hover, Combat Jumping, Manuevers and Weave, because they add what he doesn't have. Damage Resistance is a decent statistic to have, but it is still largely inferior to Defense, which negates all damage for strikes it effects.
This fact can be born out by the effects of Moment of Glory.
Any sort of attack ability is almost always deflected, and the rare bits that get through are reduced tremendously. However, autodamage stuff such as caltrops (Knives of Artemis) murder an MoG user quite effectively.
As to the comment about Granite Armor. Well, perhaps, but my Earth Tank largely tries to avoid using it. Granite Armor helps ME survive, sure, but it wreaks havoc on my aggro control and my team's hit points drop a lot faster if I use it a lot.
The only reason I bear to use Granite Armor is because we have a Kin defender in our team who keeps me sped, but even with that, I have about half my normal recharge speeds (because I'm sped outside of GA too). I need to get my attacks out as quickly as possible, without those attacks, I have no aggro and my team dies. Taunt on it's own is almost a last resort thing, the way a tank gathers aggro is by attacking and switching targets frequently. After a respec replacing the Fitness pool (again, product of teaming with a good Kin Defender and an Emp Controller) with Air Superiority, Frost and Build Up, I might have enough attacks to keep a constant attack cycle in GA, but I'm not sure yet.
Typically, I use GA for emergency situations, especially if my health is dropping rapidly, or if the team leader requests it. However, the emergency situations generally do not happen unless I'm not doing my job somehow, or something unexpected happens, like a stray AoE takes out the healers.
Overall, Granite is a nice "Oh [censored]" power, but I dislike using it too frequently.
I haven't taken too much of a hit from ED, though. Most of my tankers' defense have never been more than three slotted. And I've never had problems with any of them.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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I would suggest we do solo, 4 man teams, and 8 man teams. I would also suggest you have various team builds.
.
Like:
.
Tank
Blaster
Scrapper
Defender
.
Tank
Tank
Tank
Tank
.
Blaster
Scrapper
Defender
DEfender
.
Blaster
Blaster
Blaster
Blaster
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I think the one you should be comparing is:
Tank + Scrapper + Blaster + Blaster
vs
Defender + Scrapper + Blaster + Blaster
and
Tank + Scrapper + Defender + Controller + Blaster
vs
Scrapper + Defender + Controller + Blaster
I believe that in the last one in particular you will find that the average tank bring nothing to the mix that couldn't be bettered by replacing with any other AT.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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I think the one you should be comparing is:
Tank + Scrapper + Blaster + Blaster
vs
Defender + Scrapper + Blaster + Blaster
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Any team of good players that know each other well should work. Regardless of AT complement. The playstyle involved, however, will be different.
By substituting a Defender for a Tanker, you immediately cause the aggro to be shared a lot more. Your battle will have to be more mobile and, likely, more swift. The team would need to avoid presenting a solid target and also avoid aggroing extra opponents. The blasters will be less able to concentrate on specific targets as they will have to watch their own life more often. The defender will be busier healing, assuming you have a healing defender.
A controller would be a more equivalent trade for a tank. Tanks and controllers do the same basic job=keep the enemies from attacking the vulnerable party members. In a team with a tank, the controller's job is to handle flankers and specific threats while the tanker holds the front. In a team without a tanker, the controller takes responsibility for holding the main enemy.
Scrappers are not good replacement tanks due to the lack of gauntlet. However, they tend to have more attacks intended for single opponents than blasters, thus having more attacks that do high amount of damage than blasters. Add in critical, they have a better chance at removing threats (as adverse merely holding them) than blasters.
On the contrary, the blasters, in general, have both larger and more plentiful cones and AoEs and are thus exceptional for clearing out minions where as the scrapper would be all day about it. Scrappers will rarely reach the raw damage output of blasters even if they do as much as twice as much damage to a single target as a blaster does. The blaster does his damage to ten, twenty, forty...however many targets. All told he puts out a lot more damage.
Defenders are all across the board and you have to really know the powersets to properly play them.
Empaths are all defensive and mostly busy during a fight. In a team with a good tank, the Empath should generally only be worrying about healing that tank. In a team with no tank or, worse, a bad tank, the Empath will likely be busier. The fewer people the Empath has to heal, the better for the team. So Empaths, with a great deal of single target heals, work best in a team with a tank so that they can minimize the number of people they have to heal.
Dark Miasma is a more offensive set. It has few buffs and the majority of its powers are vampiric. Dark defs need to think a lot like a controller in many ways. Though thinking too much like a controller will get you in trouble since their control type powers aren't as good as a controller's. Key abilities in Dark include Tar Pit and Fearsome Stare.
Storm haven't played with much, but seen used a bit. It is a more controllerish set than the Dark. They are best used to delay and unbalance enemies as much as possible. Their single point target heal leaves them ineffective healers if too many of the team are being attacked. If, however, only the tank is being attacked, then their healing use is repaired somewhat. Storm has good powers for both melee and ranged teams.
Force Field is a predominantly pre-combat defensive set. Its offensive capabilities are somewhat limited, though what it does have are useful. It is also a set that, at the high end, benefits a ranged based team more than a melee based one.
Trick Arrows is completely offensive in nature. A Trick Arrow team defender should focus on breaking up enemy formations and stringing them out. Immobilize this one to delay him getting to the line, hold the next. And should also layer on as many debuffs as possible.
Rad is another predominantly offensive set. The two stand out powers being Radiation Infection and Accelerate Metabolism. Enervating Field is nice, but the extra damage and reduced damage taken is still not nearly as nice as the ACC and DEF debuff of the comparatively low end cost RI. Rad should work by layering debuffs, similar to Trick, but it is even more effective at this than Trick is due to Trick's inclusion of controllerish powers. Rad's AoE heal means that they actually are more effective healers in a group that has many people under attack, but you generally don't want to be in that sit, because the Rad will not be able to compete. The first thing you want to see in a fight when teamed with a Rad is two seperate enemies getting the RI and the EF. Two enemies to spread debuffs across as wide a field as possible and so that one an enemy dies, some debuff still remains. At high end levels, Rad becomes controllerish as well. (I have the most experience of any of these sets from playing a Rad controller to 37, hence the longer descrip)
Sonic is sort of half way between FF and Kin. It is a lot of buffs, making a lot of it pre-battle, but it also has a lot of debuffs. I prefer DEF over RES anyday, but I'll never say no to RES.
Kinetics is sort of a mirror of Dark. It depends a lot on enemies, but it also has a lot of pre-combat buffs that are very useful.
Due to their knockback auras, FF, Kin and Storm might be able to sort of take a tank's place, but the team would have to be more ranged centered.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the one you should be comparing is:
Tank + Scrapper + Blaster + Blaster
vs
Defender + Scrapper + Blaster + Blaster
[/ QUOTE ]
Any team of good players that know each other well should work. Regardless of AT complement. The playstyle involved, however, will be different.
By substituting a Defender for a Tanker, you immediately cause the aggro to be shared a lot more. Your battle will have to be more mobile and, likely, more swift. The team would need to avoid presenting a solid target and also avoid aggroing extra opponents. The blasters will be less able to concentrate on specific targets as they will have to watch their own life more often. The defender will be busier healing, assuming you have a healing defender.
A controller would be a more equivalent trade for a tank. Tanks and controllers do the same basic job=keep the enemies from attacking the vulnerable party members. In a team with a tank, the controller's job is to handle flankers and specific threats while the tanker holds the front. In a team without a tanker, the controller takes responsibility for holding the main enemy.
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Irrelevant. Defenders and Controllers and Tanks are all Support ATs. The point of the test is to see how one support AT plus some Damager dealers does against another support AT with the same damage dealers. The performance SHOULD be just as effective all things being equal.
Feel free to add Controller + Scrapper + Blaster + Blaster
PS: I tend to focus on Defenders because since I stopped playing my Tank my Defender has become my Main and he out performs by Tank by a significant margin IMO.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Empaths are all defensive and mostly busy during a fight. In a team with a good tank, the Empath should generally only be worrying about healing that tank. In a team with no tank or, worse, a bad tank, the Empath will likely be busier. The fewer people the Empath has to heal, the better for the team. So Empaths, with a great deal of single target heals, work best in a team with a tank so that they can minimize the number of people they have to heal.
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2 single target heals vs 2 AoE heals.
Once upon a time having a tank meant that being an Empath I could concentrate less on heals, more on buffing and more on my Secondary. Now I find that I have to concentrate on healing, tank or no tank.
You may consider not having to switch targets for heals as a good enough reason to have a tank on a team. As an Empath I don't and as a Tank I don't.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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I think this is a good idea, DO as far as it goes, but I think the pentad team is a bit too small to get the most out of it.
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Don't kid yourself there. The pentad, and in fact any 5 character team is exactly the sort of testing the devs want to see. Especially Statesman.
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Circeus knows things man.. he knows.
I forgot about that until now Circ, good point.