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I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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so our role by your own experience is to take the initial aggro, to tank 1/3 of the group eventough by your own admission you went to 1/3 in the red even with an emp and a kin on team long enough for the rest of the team to do it's job. So what is it you were doing that a buffed scrapper and he would be buffed with a kin controller with pets and emp on team would not be able to do plus he would be adding damage to the team which you were not. Is this really your impression of tanking is? that someone even as knowledgable and skilled as you could only contribute handling 1/3 of the spawns? what if you were EM,SS with only one AOE unlike fire is 1/3 too high of a standard then?
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I would much rather hear Cryptics explanation of our intended role and how they see us accomplishing it. Since we have obviously been wrong by their direction, I would really like for States and company to tell us what we are supposed to contribute to a team, and how that contribution stands out beyond all other AT's.
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Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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Wow. I'm again so glad I tried to get a handle on how people define tanks on at least two other postings. I wonder why mine wasn't good enough to respond to a week ago or so.
So you're saying that a set of exceedingly high-level players were "unfamiliar" with their builds? That strikes me as very odd. Basically, this collection of high 40s (and sk'd 30s) was not experienced enough with the enemies or their own builds to know how to handle an encounter on Rugged?
Which controller was it? The low-level one or the high-level one?
The Peacebringer (who in theory is effectively level 82, adding his 50 to his current level) was not experienced enough after 38 levels to know what he could and could not do?
I'd also be curious to hear what powers you took and how you slotted them, Statesman, especially considering I remember being told to 6-slot my powers pre-ED. Is this a six-slot passive Invul tank?
I'd also like to know, since it's a hot topic in other threads, how many Inspirations you used and what kind.
I am honestly curious since I play an Inv/EM tanker and I'm wondering how everything happened, who was covering you, what tactics you were using, et cetera. I mean, were the Strongmen far enough away that you could taunt only them? That sort of thing.
Hopefully, we'll see a little more information / exposition on this.
Editied for accuracy
It's really encouraging to me that you're coming out, Statesman, and playing in the "Real World" every now and then.
The definitions you've given of the role of a Tank are very close to what I've thought that they should be since I started playing mine 16 months ago.
A while back, when you were talking about Tanks herding missions while the rest of the team sits by the door, you said something like "every AT needs to feel needed on a team."
What I'm seeing in the Tanker community at large is a deep-seated fear that a team like the one you were on would have been better with either a specific type of other AT or, in extreme cases, *any* other type of AT. In other words, that the Tank is actually a detriment to the team.
It might be a good idea to keep an eye on this and make sure that it isn't true, or if it IS true, to work on fixes for it. The "Fall from Grace" for the AT was a pretty hard one over the last few months, which is one of the reasons I started this topic.
In any case, thanks for coming in and answering the poster's question for us. We've got a baseline to discuss now.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
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I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
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This has come up in other threads, but I think the flaw in your tests is that you're not representive of the typical player. You understand the math behind the game far better than any of us could hope to and that gives you quite an edge. These posts come across like Evil Knievel saying "I don't see why you people can't jump your motorcycles across the Grand Canyon too. I'm managing it just fine."
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Until I run my tests tonight, I'm going to try to take States at his word for this. In that well balanced of a group, I don't think that many tanks would have a problem. What does concern me, is that when he taunted, he got 1/3 of the group on him, and dropped to 1/3 of his life total. With CE and Icicles running, an Ice tank can manage to get the agro of much higher numbers of mobs, but might not be able to handle it.
Yes, Statesman is probably very good at the game by now, which might not be representative of the general playing public. But frankly, I'm just glad he posted.
Especially a post as detailed as that, specifying exactly what he expects tanks to be able to do. Because now we have something very specific to test against. Can we do this, or can we not? At least we can test this and prove one way or the other.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
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This has come up in other threads, but I think the flaw in your tests is that you're not representive of the typical player. You understand the math behind the game far better than any of us could hope to and that gives you quite an edge. These posts come across like Evil Knievel saying "I don't see why you people can't jump your motorcycles across the Grand Canyon too. I'm managing it just fine."
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I'm not so convinced. There's a couple mitigating factors here.
First, he's just one of the people on the team that's filled with regular players.
Second, he spelled out what he did as a tank. Is it so different than how you play a tank? Or how I play a tank? Not really. Doesn't sound to me like he was doing anything unusual tactically.
-RC
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I would much rather hear Cryptics explanation of our intended role and how they see us accomplishing it. Since we have obviously been wrong by their direction, I would really like for States and company to tell us what we are supposed to contribute to a team, and how that contribution stands out beyond all other AT's.
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Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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Thanks for speaking out on this States. Based on this scenario, would you say the Invuln tank prevailed through the use of his Primary powerset more (i.e. Resistance/Defense), or by virtue of healing and team support? If your answer is the latter, this indicates a concern many of us have: the notion that other pool powers and our secondaries are worth slotting more than our Primaries. I know from experience in the post Issue 5 world that powers like Fault and Hand Clap have done much more for mitigating damage than (for instance) the Invulnerability passives. This doesn't sit well with me, but it may be that Invuln's passives are collateral damage in the balance process.
In short, the fact that we have more hit points and Gauntlet shouldn't be our only defining characteristics, our Primaries should make a strong contribution too. Just my opinion of course.
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Heh, I find it funny how people go from "Statesman knows too little about his own game!" to "Statesman knows too much about his own game!" 
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I can't speak for other people, but I don't think it's contradictory to say that "Statesman understands the math underlying the game better than the player base" and "Statesman doesn't understand the psychology of the player base.", or to put it your way, "Statesman knows too much about his own game!" and "Statesman knows too little about his own game!"
In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
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Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
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I think the problem we see here states, is that the margin between how long tanks last based on their primaries and how long other ATs last is too small to justify using a tank to take the aggro. Defenders external buffs exceed our own internal buffs. They can turn the entire team into semi-tanks with damage mitigation equal to an unbuffed tank. Which allows them to not have to worry about the extra aggro in the mob. Sure they can buff our own abilities to cap, but is that all we are? Bags of HP with higher caps? Shouldn't our own PRIMARY abilities matter?
Why do you not want tanker defenses higher? Clearly this is the post I5 policy. Where do you want them instead?
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Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
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I'd also like to point to this particular area and ask about spawn sizes and such. I think most tanks have heard (at one point or another) that "nobody should be able to take on X amount of mobs at once."
How many was the spawn? And how long is it supposed to take while you're absorbing the damage?
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As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage.
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Thing is, States, as it is now the Tanker can barely manage the damage from his own "3 minions" let alone accomplish much in the way of relieving teammates of their own aggro.
And even if he does, exactly why is this beneficial? Any AT can take on their 3 minions and win, that's part of the design of the game for soloability -- this is a good thing, but it also makes the concept of a Tanker iffy. That's because the other ATs are not, and cannot be, designed so vulnerable that they actually need protection.
You see, the Tanker might keep the squishies or Scrappers from taking some damage (at the expense of taking it himself), but he's not actually *contributing*. He doesn't make the bad guys fall faster, which is the benefit of the damage AT, and he doesn't make the team able to take on bigger and badder things. He's just spreading the damage around some, and forcing the team to spend some extra time finishing off his own minions after taking care of their own. He is, in effect, *slowing the team down*.
Sure, he's taking some damage off the squishies, but by design it is damage the squishies should already be able to take! What's the benefit of his presence? What useful role is he filling on the team? What's he contributing that a Scrapper couldn't do better?
The Tanker must be able to allow the team to take on more than it could without him for him to be valuable. Otherwise, his presecne is a zero-sum game. At best he provides a way to ensure nobody ends up facing more than they can handle, which can happen when facing large numbers of minions -- typically, this means taking the alpha strike.
That is not much of a role.
Now if he let the team take more than "3 minions" per, at the expense of it taking longer, he would have a clear and useful role in a team. If he's not doing that, his low damage output is slowing the team down. He becomes a liability.
OK, now that Statesman has given us his idea of the Role of the Tank, I have to ask the questions:
With the resources we have at the present time, can we fulfill that role?
Are there Primaries that would not have been able to fulfill that role? Secondaries?
Is the role a reasonable one that we can live with, long term? If not, how can we expand on it? If the DEVs can expand on it, what is reasonable to ask them to do that will not unbalance the game?
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
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so our role by your own experience is to take the initial aggro, to tank 1/3 of the group long enough for the rest of the team to do it's job. So what is it you were doing that a buffed scrapper ... would not be able to do? Plus he would be adding signifigant damage to the team which you were not. Is this really your impression of tanking is? that someone even as knowledgable and skilled as you could only contribute handling 1/3 of the spawns?
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DarkPhoenix's post was tough to read, for me, so I edited it slightly. It very much describes my own reaction to Jack's post. What exactly in the experience you described would a scrapper not have been able to do just as well, simply by jumping into the mobs and hitting an AoE? With the buffs/heals/etc coming from the others on your team, a scrapper could survive that. He'll keep around 1/3 of the mobs busy, by dealing enough damage to them that he keeps aggro. The scrapper could even take Confront if he wants to be able to pull a mob or two off a squishy teammate. Where's the 'tanking' vs. 'scrapping'?
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Statesman, so it's expected that the rest of the team will still be getting hit even with a Tanker? Not complaining or fighting with you, just asking.
I know this isn't every other game, but this is a question of expectations. In most MMOs, a tank that can't handle most to all aggro is not considered to be much of a tank unless the rest of the team is off throwing Ice Comets (silly Wizards 
).
It seems that what you're saying is that the tank is there only to return the majority of the team to the solo standard of 3 white minions or slightly better.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I *am* an Ice Tanker, and my job is what it has been since I started playing at the beginning of I5 . . . tanking for a team. Small-team tanking is easy to do without any kind of Defender/Controller support . . . large teams it becomes more important, but also far more likely to have.
Generally, I start a battle either by rushing into the middle of the fray. If it looks like there are too many spawns too close, I may pull a group back with Taunt and block LoS. Either way, battles start with positioning to dropping Ice Patch. If I took a chunk of damage from the alpha, I hit Hoarfrost. When END gets lowish, I hit Energy Absorption. I usually pan out and Taunt persistent ranged foes or those that go after squishies. I do let scrappers and 'tougher' squishies, like Storm defenders, absorb aggro if they take it . . . they can absorb some extra hits. If I am taking a particular beating, I fire Taunt (if I have time), hit Hibernate, and laugh at my foes.
Is it hard? Uh. Yeah, it's hard. Is it doable? So far, yes. I've gone from 26 to 33 under I5 and slotted for ED, while generally tanking for large groups, as well as doing the Citadel and Hess TFs. I've tanked Lusca a few times. I've been SKed up and tanked for a few level 50 Carnie and Malta missions.
Sooo . . . I dunno what that means as redfining the role of the Tank. I haven't had to redefine my role yet.
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I would much rather hear Cryptics explanation of our intended role and how they see us accomplishing it. Since we have obviously been wrong by their direction, I would really like for States and company to tell us what we are supposed to contribute to a team, and how that contribution stands out beyond all other AT's.
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Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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You know, the only thing i get out of you exeamples here as of late is that, you and you boys, know how to play this game... that you just happend to make... and work on every day... WAY TO GO! This doesn't excatily PROVE there's nothing wrong with tanks... it just proves you dev's know who to play your own game better then most. 
anyway, i've retaired my tank. So i don't care right now. I figure, if enough people do the same, you'll relize you made a mistake... and if they don't, well, apperently this is acceptable to the masses and i need to move on to a new at. i got 4 to 9 other i'll try.. I'll see if i like one of them better.
Can you at least give me a heads up, who AREN'T you going to nerf anytime soon?
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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OK, now that Statesman has given us his idea of the Role of the Tank, I have to ask the questions:
With the resources we have at the present time, can we fulfill that role?
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No. At least not more than marginally better than a scrapper or another AT given the support required. Yes we can get more aggro, but we can still get far more aggro than we can survive without help. A scrapper with slotted provoke requires the same amount of attention by his teammates as a tanker does to survive (Because the difference between scrapper and tanker is small compared to the difference between supported and unsupported), but defeats things faster.
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Statesman, so it's expected that the rest of the team will still be getting hit even with a Tanker? Not complaining or fighting with you, just asking.
I know this isn't every other game, but this is a question of expectations. In most MMOs, a tank that can't handle most to all aggro is not considered to be much of a tank unless the rest of the team is off throwing Ice Comets off (silly Wizards ).
It seems that what you're saying is that the tank is there only to return the majority of the team to the solo standard of 3 white minions or slightly better.
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I agree with what you said, but there's more to it. Just as there's synergy between members on a team, there's also synergy within an 16-enemy spawn for a team of 7. On rugged, that spawn would have been 52 carnies, which is nothing to sneeze at.
The tank can pick and choose which of the enemies to get the aggro from, while the scrapper cannot. This does give the tank an advantage.
The question is, is this a big enough advantage to be important?
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
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This has come up in other threads, but I think the flaw in your tests is that you're not representive of the typical player. You understand the math behind the game far better than any of us could hope to and that gives you quite an edge.
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While an argument could be made that Statesman is just too good a player for tests like the above to be meaningful I don't really see "math superiority" having anything to do with it. A lot of tanker players know the numbers involved. (And the only actual "math" that happens is when making your build. I don't know of anyone who does any meaningful math while they play, nor do they need to.)
Hehe, I agree Sword.
The only thing I saw in State's post about knowing about the game was that he focused on Strongmen first. That means knowing that his Inv/Fire build could best handle their aggro before the other Psi or other attack types. It is true that not everybody knows that. But by level 32 or so, a Tanker should know a base concept of what kind of damage he can deal with, and what he can't.
When I run into a situation as a Tanker that I get planted or near planeted, I take a look at the combat tab (which everybody has by default) to see what hit me so hard, especially when fighting something new (like Carnies for the first time).
The info is available to ALL. "Look those Carnies dropped me hard. Let's see, the strongmen were lethal damage, but the funny hats had psi..." or whatever the combo is, don't remember off the top of my head "... Hmmm, my tanker is heavy into this type defense, but not these others. OK, I'll focus on these guys, and let my blaster buddy drop the Psi witches."
Or something like that which isn't so geeky sounding.
In the first 10-15 levels people don't know their toons as well (I'm talking about people new to the game). In general, the damage types are more limited in that range of the game as well, with certain glaring exceptions, most of which are bosses or major LT's. So people get an introduction into handling different types of damage, rather than just rushing in not caring what they are fighting.
Example on my controllers - I avoid strongmen like the plague. Their disorient and damage strike is enough to drop me easily. Dazed, none of my holds or leadership are worth a damn. So I would focus on the funny hats, or others, and avoid attracting the strongmen, letting my teammates or my imps or jacks handle the metal heads.
So I don't see Statesman knowing about the game as a bad thing. We have pretty much the same ability to know during the course of our play experience. We are just now having to pay attention to it, whereas before for many of us, it really didn't matter what or who we were fighting (with the exception of the Psi Clockwork King, he could always drop a team of 8, hehe).
Those who already have their toons to 40+ may not have paid any attention to those details, and are having to learn to look at who does what and when. New players are not going to have that issue so much, as they are now having to do it from the get go. I know I am having to do so on my 40+ toons.
Here's another example: Malta. How many really know the difference between all the Malta mobs prior to current changes? Let's see.... Sappers suck royally. Gunslingers are bad (double damage stuff from them). And a few others. But what about what they do, differences between them? Not really. But now, I do know that there are major differences between the various Malta mobs. I know which ones I'll go toe to toe with, which ones I'll sneeze at to drop, and which to avoid. Previously, I just waded in, and they could have all been 100% the same as far as our teams were concerned.
My 2 cents for the little they are worth. OK, that might have been $1. Sorry for the length.
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With the resources we have at the present time, can we fulfill that role?
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Barely, but I'll buy it.
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Are there Primaries that would not have been able to fulfill that role? Secondaries?
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I don't think the primary matters much TBH -- I think high hitpoints and status protections are the main deal here, and while the Tanker primaries are obviously uneven, they're just bonuses on top of the extra HP.
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Is the role a reasonable one that we can live with, long term?
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Certainly not, IMHO. I've gone into an elaborate explanation above, but as I pointed out, the role described by States seems to bring little tangible benefit to a team, and might conceivably prove to be a detriment.
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If not, how can we expand on it?
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The Tanker, by being a defensive bastion, must allow the team to be able to take on more than they otherwise would -- he must create *synergy* with the rest of the team in such a fashion that it becomes greater than the sum of its parts. Because of his low damage potential, he cannot be expected to "carry his own weight" simply by eliminating his "3 minions" as quickly as everyone else -- as a defensive AT, he must therefore benefit the team by allowing it to take on over "3 minions" per team member.
This is what pre-I6 tanks were capable of doing, and what they brought to the table. They did so in an excessive manner pre-I5, that's certainly inarguable, but they need to make the team better to some degree to be useful in the post-I6 world.
Or he must be capable of inflicting enough damage on his own that the difference between his damage and that of a Scrapper/Blaster doesn't offset the small benefit his aggro control abilities are bringing to the table.
If all they can do is take on their 3 minions slower than everyone else, and maybe take some damage off the other ATs so long as they have help later on, then he's simply not being discernibly useful.
well what if i dont have dull pain States?? Am I screwed? Those carnies and their psi kill me.
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Statesman, so it's expected that the rest of the team will still be getting hit even with a Tanker? Not complaining or fighting with you, just asking.
I know this isn't every other game, but this is a question of expectations. In most MMOs, a tank that can't handle most to all aggro is not considered to be much of a tank unless the rest of the team is off throwing Ice Comets off (silly Wizards ).
It seems that what you're saying is that the tank is there only to return the majority of the team to the solo standard of 3 white minions or slightly better.
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I agree with what you said, but there's more to it. Just as there's synergy between members on a team, there's also synergy within an 16-enemy spawn for a team of 7. On rugged, that spawn would have been 52 carnies, which is nothing to sneeze at.
The tank can pick and choose which of the enemies to get the aggro from, while the scrapper cannot. This does give the tank an advantage.
The question is, is this a big enough advantage to be important?
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Well... we can pick which enemy to get aggro from, and his 4 closest friends. I'm sorry but is it really that strange for someone to ask for their PRIMARY powerset to be more important than some nice-to-have bone they threw us a while back?
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I haven't played my tanks a lot since ED, but in my limited experience in a team with my L31 Stone/Axe, my role has been to take the alpha strike, and then play scrapper. I can take an alpha strike, as long as the rest of the team immediately follows me in and takes some of the aggro off. I can push out the damage - not as well as a real scrapper, but with Axe my damage is respectable, and the knockdown helps too.
What I can't do any more is take all the aggro, all the time. And if we make a mistake and aggro a second group, I run like everyone else. Tanker's role? A poor man's Phantom Army, useful only for deflecting alpha strikes and doing mediocre damage.
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That seems to mirror my current experience in I6, although my Inv/Mace tank is only lvl.18 and should probably be asking for advice instead of giving it. I can still solo, but took teleport foe to help in that regard. More than 5 minions or more than 3 Lts and I have to hit and run a lot and rest for endurance. TP foe lets me thin the herd before I run in, and sometimes I'll use it to pull minions for the team.
I have not been on a large team yet, just 5 and under, but what Ineffable_Bob said rings true. The one time that the team was able to take on large mobs (15-20) was when there were two tanks. We would jump in for the alpha and then the team would clean up, but we needed some heals to finish up the job.
I don't know if that is such a bad thing. It means that we have to watch our health rather than spam taunts aimlessly. I do enough damage to help out, and if things do go wrong and we have to bail, quite often it's the tanks that survive and get to hand out awakens to the defenders so that they can res the others.
I still get as many invites now as I did before, so as long as others show a desire to team up with me, I'll continue to play the role. My impression so far is that other heroes still expect the tank to tank. What happens at higher levels I guess I'll have to leave others to comment on.
The tough part about defining the tanker's role in I6 is its cirumstantial. well, to be fair, its not so much the role that's circumstantial, but the degree to which it can be realized is circumstantial.
all the tanker AT's now have varying strength when faced with different types of threats. i'll pick on Inv because i'm most familiar with it - its strong against S/L but not as strong against non-S/L. its strong against groups of close-lvl melee-oriented minions, but not as strong against single larger threats. (note, i didn't say "weak").
80% of the time, these variations don't matter a whole lot. but, 20% of the time, they do. so, its not unusual for a tank to behave a certain way and then suddenly join a team that's running a +2 mission against mixed-type damage foes and find the world turned on its head. strong teammates can certainly help mediate these situations, but typically they're just as surprised as the tank to find "something" has changed. what makes it a little more challenging is once you start throwing in level differences and teammate buffs and debuffs, it gets even harder to predict how successful you might be against foes that take advantage of your less strong defenses.
i have an AV Experience thread floating around that highlights this really well. in particular, PorkchopXpress and AmericanSpirit both submitted reports about battles with a +2 Nightstar. both teams included one Inv/Axe tanker. team composition was slightly different: one a 4-person team with two controllers, a blaster and a scrapper. one a 6-person team with a scrapper, a controller, two blasters, and a defender. one of the tanks couldn't survive without US and had to retreat when US dropped. the other tank tanked Nightstar with little difficulty. i think it makes sense for us to have to apply different tactics in different situations, but it becomes frustrating when its not clear the particulars have changed.
i hate to bring up the over-used "never make an uninformed decision" argument, but to some degree it applies. if its hard to know you're going to be weaker in a particular situation, how will you know to change your tactics?
Heh, I find it funny how people go from "Statesman knows too little about his own game!" to "Statesman knows too much about his own game!"