Umbral

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Oh my. Someone got defensive there.

"Intelligence" might not have been the best word choice for me to use, I saw it coming, but didn't really feel like editting it.

I'm not gonna pick through all the garbage in your post at 3 am though.

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Translation.

I said a trollish stupid thing, I knew it was stupid and trollish and now that I've been called on it I'm not really going to defend myself because I was being a stupid troll.

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No. I mean't what I meant, I could have phrased it better though, like I said. I have always held my same opinion about melee ATs compared to ranged ATs for years, and I've said it many times over.

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Then please, elucidate us as to the reasons why it requires more intelligence to play a Defender/Controller than a Scrapper.

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Plus, while 8 defenders working together is quite amazing, you'd be even more amazed what 7 defenders and a single Blaster can manage.

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Fixed.

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A Scrapper actually has higher optimum damage potential because of the inherents. Scrappers get an extra 5-10% damage on top of their 400% +dam cap whereas Blaster are simply stuck with 400% +dam because Defiance simply acts as a +dam buff.

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But do they get Blaze?

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No, but they do get Achilles' Heel procs.

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Actually I think Garrets weapon is closer to a Longsword.


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No, it's an Arming Sword, which is usually confused with a Longsword or a Broadsword. Regardless, it's a sword used by Stalker-like character.

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I think the more important question is the method in which it is used. If it's used by the character in the slow, powerhouse cleaving motions that would espouse a heavier sword, then I'd question its application. If he's using it in a faster fencing style that places greater emphasis on thrusts than slashes, than I use it as a point of evidence.

Either way, I can easily see Broadsword Stalkers making sense just as much as Katana Stalkers do. A katana is no more stealthy than a broadsword and is just as cumbersome, though slightly easier to wield (thanks to superior balance). The important thing to remember, in my opinion, is that Assassination is less about precise strikes and more about "you weren't prepared for this so I kill you", which means that the weapon is less important than the method in which it is used. As long as you can deliver a reasonably stealthy attack with it (and you can deliver a quiet attack with a large heavy weapon), then it would make sense for a Stalker to have it. The only attacks that wouldn't really make sense for a Stalker would be those that actually generate a large amount of noise at all times rather than simply upon contact.

Ooh! Anyone wanna know how I name my characters?

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I 16

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Super Strength and Martial Arts will each receive an alternate animation for their powers, and Stone Armor and Necromancy will include limited customization.


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Could we be getting acces to the old version of Storm Kick. (Picture Flurry but done with on leg, while standing on the other. Like Chun Li from Street Fighter)

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Infering from what BAB has said elsewhere, the alternate animations for SS and MA are mostly new, meaning that most of the new animations are made from scratch with a few that use old animations (probably from other powers that have the same animation times).

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Comeon guys this isnt a bash AE thread its make regular content more open to casual players. Dont turn this into a flame thread.

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I won't bash the AE then.
However, Farmdumb has become the worst server for this kind behavior.

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*yawn*

Do you have any idea how tiringly obnoxious it is to hear variations of "Freedumb" from the lesser servers for five years now? I just need to get that off my chest. Did everyone on this server whiz in your Wheaties or something? This is our home. Quit pooping on the front mat and calling it thoughtful diatribe.

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Freedumb is freedumb, same way triumph is the pantless server and virtue is the RP sailor server. . . .I for one like the nick names :P

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First off, you're all spelling it wrong. It's FreedUmbral, not FreeDumb.

Secondly, FreedUmbral should be considered the pantsless server for no other reason than because I'm here, and I'm pantsless. I'm religiously pantsless. Also, because the server is named after me and I'm pantsless, it should be even more obvious.

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Plus, while 8 defenders working together is quite amazing, you'd be even more amazed what 7 defenders and a single Blaster can manage.

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Fixed.

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A Scrapper actually has higher optimum damage potential because of the inherents. Scrappers get an extra 5-10% damage on top of their 400% +dam cap whereas Blaster are simply stuck with 400% +dam because Defiance simply acts as a +dam buff.

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EDIT: nope its just mids...

btw when will it be updated?

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Check here.

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You do realize that, just to prove to some players that he could, he solo'd AV Ghost Widow with a Claws/Invuln without temps, insps, or anything without dieing 3 times in a row. And it was verified.

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Huh. Well, I guess he'd have capped hit points, decent resists, and probably cranked up his passive regeneration a lot. I suppose it would work. I survived her death hold once on Werner. I assume I had Dull Pain and Instant Healing up at the time, but it was a long time ago. I wasn't able to beat her, though.

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He actually stated that he never got hit by her Soul Storm (the mega hold) on any of the fights. He used an AI trick to convince her never to use it in one of them, at which point players cried foul (even though the players could themselves do it) and he went back and did it twice while in melee the entire time.

Bringing up Ghost Widow, once I figured out her pattern, I actually had a lot of fun soloing her. With a decent bit of defense, she's not actually all that scary. Soul Storm actually missed me 3 of the 5 times she used it on me when I was soloing her for a random person that needed help.

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Is Castle the developer that was doing Rikti War Zone challenges on his newly minted Dual Blades/Willpower back before those sets went live?

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Yes. I believe he actually used the RWZ challenge as a metric for designing the set, insofar as it should be able to complete it with some degree of IO expenditure and effort.

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Why the damage/recharge in Gambler's Cut instead of damage? I did the same thing in mine, but my global recharge is much lower, and I wanted a lot of extra recharge in my chain to handle recharge debuffs. It doesn't seem like that would be the explanation here.

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It's a difference between 89.92% +dam and +rech or 96.89% +dam and 59.62% +rech. I'm more than willing to cough up 7% +dam in order to keep 30.3 +rech. Of course, it's not altogether needed for GC since it already recharges insanely fast, but 7% +dam isn't really all that impressive in my book.

Paragonwiki is your friend. That's the page that lists all of the various hard caps for all of the ATs in the game.

For Scrappers...
Resistance: 75%
Damage: 500% (400% +dam)
Defense: 200.38% (softcap is 45%)
Recharge: 400% (reduces recharge to 1/5th base)
Regeneration: 3000% (2900% +regen)
Recovery: 500% (400% +recov)
Hit Points: 2409.5

AM requires (((422+.2.244)/120)-1) = 253.54% +recharge in order to be permanent. You've got 50% from SB, 30% from AM, 70% from Hasten (assuming permanent), and 97.23% from slotting. That's 247.43% +recharge so you're actually just a tiny bit short (6.11% to be precise).

Hasten requires (((450+.924)/120)-1) = 275.77% +recharge in order to be permanent. You've got exactly the same amount of +rech in Hasten so you're 28.34% +recharge short.

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Scrappers: They're the AT for people who can't leverage the power of ATs that actually take some level of intelligence to play.

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Right. Because it takes more intelligence to design and play an AV soloing Rad/Son than it takes to design and play an AV soloing Fire/Regen.

Having actually played every blueside AT to 50 twice and brought them to virtually every task that the game has, I can honestly say that Defenders and Controllers take no more intelligence to play than Scrappers, Tankers, or Blasters. It simply requires a different kind of intelligence. Defenders and Controllers require a more intimate knowledge of buff/debuff mechanics, though, as is evidenced in this very thread, it's actually rather obvious that most people that play those very characters aren't actually fully proficient in those mechanisms. Scrappers require a much more involved knowledge of attack strings and personal defenses, as well as a greater degree of reactivity because they don't have the substantial buffs and debuffs to fall back on.

The reason that 8 Defenders and Controllers can do more and more efficiently than 8 Scrappers is no decent metric to determine level of intelligence required since, once you get more than 4 Defenders or Controllers on a team, everyone could be dumb as a rock and the team would still be effective because of all of the buffs and debuffs being thrown out.

If you want to actually check to see how intelligent Scrappers are compared to the other ATs, actually check the various forums. You'll probably be surprised. The Scrapper forums are by far the most intelligent. We actually calculate all of the various numbers for our own performance and determine the comparative effectiveness of powers all the time all over the place. We even do it for other ATs that can't get that same level of help from their own forums.

Before you try and state that Scrappers don't take a level of intelligence to play, I strongly suggest you actually check to see the amount of intelligence is actually required to play any other AT in the game, especially considering how easy it is to simply say "turn this on and use this power whenever it recharges" where Defenders and Controllers are concerned.

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Seriously, the devs need to allow us to solo this stuff. Why you ask? Because Castle and Back Alley Brawler can't make it to where we can't solo it. Because they are weak(I would challenge Posi too, but his woosiness is a given).

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You do realize that, just to prove to some players that he could, Castle solo'd AV Ghost Widow with a Claws/Invuln without temps, insps, or anything without dieing 3 times in a row. And it was verified.

I don't know about BAB and Posi, but I'm rather confident that Castle is more than capable of performing exactly up to the standard that we optimizing players expect of ourselves.

As to what is being discussed, it's the only thing I actually don't like about I16. I've never thought that the ability to modify what level and what size the game sees you as would be a good thing. It discourages actually filling out teams. The same would apply for TFs. If you could start any task force solo, you'd be hard pressed to find any effective players actually running them with other people, especially the AV soloing specialist builds like Rad/Son and Cold/Son Defenders. It sounds like a good idea on paper, but the repercussions for normal play would actually be rather bad.

Edited to correct for some vagueness in the first sentence.

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So would Neo be MA(customized animations)/SR?

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Yes. With the Reality Alteration Mastery APP.

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Nay! That's not the one I'm using. That looks more geared towards teaming and the like.

Here is the one you built for me.

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That looks about right. I remember that I was pretty doubtful about the Kat/Regen build I posted mainly because it was designed after my DM/Regen which requires Dark Consumption for it's end sustainability.

Actually, I just checked, and I do have that build saved, but it's under a different name (KatRegen rather than the specialized names I normally give my builds). I've still got it, just couldn't remember the specifics of the build to show it off. :P

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so, ummm... anyone know why these two threads go stickied? I'm not griping... just curious.

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I'm reasonably sure because a number of people asked for the both of the threads to be stickied because it's actually a rather good comparison of the single target damage capabilities of the various damage sets. If people are willing to read (and it's a generally good read if you stick it through), it give concise and reasonably accurate comparisons of damage capabilities for both of the ATs.

This is the one I've got saved, but I think I've changed it when I've given it out a few times without saving it.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

+def concept: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Katana
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Concealment

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Gambler's Cut -- Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(A), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(3), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Hectmb-Dam%(5), Achilles-ResDeb%(42)
Level 1: Fast Healing -- RgnTis-Regen+(A)
Level 2: Flashing Steel -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(7), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(9), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), Oblit-%Dam(46)
Level 4: Reconstruction -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(11), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Dct'dW-Heal(13), Dct'dW-Rchg(15)
Level 6: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(7), EndMod-I(48)
Level 8: Divine Avalanche -- Mako-Dam%(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(17), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(19), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Mako-Acc/Dmg(21), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(43), Zephyr-Travel(50), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(50), Zephyr-ResKB(50)
Level 12: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(23), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Dct'dW-Heal(25), Dct'dW-Rchg(25)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-ResKB(15), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(27)
Level 16: Integration -- Numna-Heal/EndRdx(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(17), Numna-Heal(27)
Level 18: The Lotus Drops -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(31), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Oblit-%Dam(34)
Level 20: Boxing -- Amaze-Stun(A), Amaze-Stun/Rchg(34), Amaze-Acc/Stun/Rchg(36), Amaze-Acc/Rchg(36), Amaze-EndRdx/Stun(36)
Level 22: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(37), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Aegis-ResDam(37), Aegis-Psi/Status(39)
Level 24: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(39)
Level 26: Soaring Dragon -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(40), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Mako-Dam%(42)
Level 28: Instant Healing -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Rchg(29), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Dct'dW-Heal(31), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(42)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 32: Golden Dragonfly -- Armgdn-Dam%(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(45), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(46), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 35: Stealth -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 38: Moment of Glory -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RechRdx-I(43), RechRdx-I(48)
Level 41: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 44: Super Speed -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(45), Zephyr-ResKB(48)
Level 47: Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Resilience -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit

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Cg's man, out of curiousity, what is your build with your katana/regen?

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I can send it to you in a PM if you'd like. To be honest, Umbral is the one who built it for me, all I had to do was spend the money and then learn how to use it.

Thanks for the congrats all. I'm sure you could perform similarly, Werner, but I hear that you've shelved your Kat/Regen?

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Thanks, i'm relatively new to CoH and already have a build with my katana/regen, but its not av worthy, I'll send you a PM with that build and let me know if I can change it with the current sets I have and with a bit extra

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If he's using the one I gave him verbatim, I think I've still got it on file.

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Nope. It's not overpowered. I've played Kinetics MMs.

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You have? Would you please tell us the secret of playing a combination that doesn't exist yet? I'm really curious!

As to claiming that they're not overpowered, would you care to actually show any data supporting that conclusion?

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Sure. I've played a Corruptor with Kinetics and no primary while two-boxing a Mastermind who just used his Primary.

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Interesting... cuz that's not a Kinetics MM. That's a Kinetics Corr and another MM. Not entirely the same though, I will admit that it is roughly similar if you played as you did.

Personally, I'm not entirely sure that Kinetics would be that overpowered for MMs. I not entire sure, but I believe that the change preventing pets from benefiting from recharge actually affects the MM pets as well, so Speed Boost wouldn't be disproportionately powerful in their hands. Transfusion has pretty much the same issues surrounding it as Twilight Grasp. Fulcrum Shift wouldn't be any more powerful in an MM's hands as it would in any other pet user's hands since the buff/debuff are based on the number of enemies rather than the number of total targets.

The only possible issues I could see would be tangential benefits for using high demand powers while having near full effectiveness offenses because so much of an MM's effectiveness is available without any real time animation expenditure. Increase Density wouldn't be too hard to keep on all of your pets, especially since you're not having to spend much time on anything else, but, then again, for that same reason Siphon Speed wouldn't be nearly as valuable.

My request for information wasn't construed as a way to prove you wrong. I was more a request to see the point proven either way. I can see the potential for the set being particularly powerful, but I can also see a number of reasons for the set being no more powerful than any other MM secondary or other AT kineticist. The problem that I've always had is that I've yet to see any decent information for either side of the argument.

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Nope. It's not overpowered. I've played Kinetics MMs.

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You have? Would you please tell us the secret of playing a combination that doesn't exist yet? I'm really curious!

As to claiming that they're not overpowered, would you care to actually show any data supporting that conclusion?

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Oh wow. I hadn't even thought what customizable Spines might mean to me. If they allow for us to change out banana melee for something better... this might be the first time I'm actually seriously considering Spines!

Ohh damn, now I want Talsorian Spines!

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Considering that Spines was lumped in with everything else, I predict that it will simply be a recolorization of the spines, just like everything else. Changing the spines extensively would involve a lot of work to the set as a whole (though, considering all of the work that's been done just to bring the system to bear, it might actually happen).

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Also worth pointing out that while realistically a broadsword was more difficult to swing than a longsword, we ARE talking about superheroes (er... villains) here. Just because there isn't a Stalker primary "Super Strength" doesn't mean your villain isn't stronger than a normal human being.

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The important part concerning the difference between a broadsword and a longsword in real life isn't the actual weight. A well made Katana will weigh substantially more than a European longsword, often by up to a full pound (25-33%) yet it is still substantially easier to swing. This is because of the center of balance for the blade. A broadsword's center of balance is actually substantially farther from the guard (which is where the point of "perfect balance" is generally considered to be) which means that the weapon itself will generate greater levels of torque. Torque is wonderful for getting a powerful swing out of a weapon, as is evidenced by axes, maces, and other end weighted weapons that are renowned for their ability to punch through heavy armor, but it's actually more difficult to move around quickly for the exact same reason: the weapon has greater leverage against you to prevent it from being moved. Pommelstones made from heavy materials like lead were used by many swords (and even other weapons, like the Spartan spears) expressly for this reason: it increased the weight of the sword but made it easier to swing because the center of balance was closer to the axis of movement.

What? I like archaic combat.

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It depends on the sword you choose. an Actual Broadsword or Claymore which is Legacy is not really meant for finesse. a Rapier or Sabre is.

When I think swords I think of Knights in Full Plate with Kite shields hacking at each other. Of course my namesake character is a "Longsword" Scrapper and I usually concider him to be more of a fniesse user with that sword.

They both work but For the standard Stereotype it would make more sense to me to be a Brute and Tank set before a Stalker set. My first thought isn't someone wielding a Broadsword in a Dark Corner waiting to strike.

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Against knights in full plate, swords are generally a terrible choice of weapon exactly because they favor finesse over brute force (even claymores and the like), and thus have trouble causing any actual damage to the opponent. Maces, hammers, picks, even axes are better choices because they strike with more force.

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Interestingly enough, the reason why the broadsword was developed was specifically to solve the heavy armored target issue. Broadswords were specifically made to be significantly heavier towards the blade end than a traditional longsword specifically to make the weapon better suited for taking on heavily armored targets. This was done specifically by making the blade itself significantly wider, hence the term "broadsword" for a sword that is marked by having a broader, heavier blade.

If anything, it would make more sense for Brutes and Tankers to have broadswords, Scrappers to have longswords, and Stalkers to have rapiers or other long piercing swords. Broadswords were actually remarkably difficult to move around gracefully thanks to the excessive weight but longswords, which were actually weighted heavier in the hilt and pommel specifically for this purpose, were designed to be moved around in an adroit manner. Rapiers followed suit even farther than longswords though, rather than attempting to make the entire blade into a weapon, focused upon using only the last 6 inches to make precision strikes for light slashing but mostly piercing thrusts to important portions of the anatomy. Of course, rapiers weren't really much use against somebody in full plate armor, mainly because a rapier can't really do much to riveted steel with chain and leather as the nominal weak points within the confines of an actual melee.

The better solution, in my opinion, would be to alter the AI to account for percent level of endurance. Lower levels of endurance would either encourage or force the critter to use weaker attacks. It wouldn't do anything to make the critter completely incapable of dealing damage, but it would actually give a tangible defensive benefit to end drain, especially since it would work at variable levels of endurance.