The_Spad_EU

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if theres a Granite to tank recluse we win, if there isn't, we lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to add that Recluse can do virtually nothing to an Inv/*, either.

Spad's the best ice tanker I've ever teamed with, his build honed over 6 issues to the ultimate blend of toughness and flexibility. And even he had a tough time of it against Mr. Recluse and his Happy Holiday Campers.

Take everything that'll take some of the burden off your Defense, because lordy knows it ain't gonna save you from Recluse. And hope there's at least one empath and a sonic backing you up full-time.

[/ QUOTE ]



As Wilf and I discussed after we did the STF the second time (First was me tanking, second was his Inv/Fire tank), Ice doesn't really have a hope for several reasons, many of which are unavoidable.

Firstly, it doesn't matter how much defence you have, there's still a ~5% of a hit landing on you. Some of Recluse's attacks hit for 4000-5000 damage and Ice lacks any resistance to S/L. All it takes is two lucky hits (or one if your HP isn't full at the time) and you're down.

With Inv, you're already at an advantage with capped S/L resists *and* a moderate amount of S/L defense. However, what really finishes it off is the preponderance of Defence buffs versus Res buffs.

With perma Fortitude on him, Wilf's HP bar barely blinked during the fight with Recluse, meanwhile I hit the debt cap with plenty to spare even with the Wedding Band *and* the Eye of the Magus accolade running.

In conclusion, the game mechanics and power effects are still unfairly skewed towards Resistance simply because the ideal case is Defence + Resistance and it's much easier to gain DEF than to gain RES.

There simply isn't an easy way to tank Recluse as an Ice tank without half a team of Sonic defenders to accompany you.

[ QUOTE ]
I`m not saying we cant function in those circumstances. I`m not saying we cant contribute. I`m saying that because our primary is decreased, other ATs can do our job better than we can. Almost any AT will be more effective than we are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rubbish.

Take any "balanced" 8 person team fighting +2 or +3 mobs. Buff the tank and send them into a mob to take the alpha and control the aggro.

Once that mob is dead, buff the blaster and send them into the next mob to take the alpha and control the aggro. I promise you that the second mob will be chaos, if not a disaster.

Buffs are mostly additive or percentage based, meaning that players with higher existing values benefit more than those with lower values. Toons with high Defence benefit more from defence buffs than toons without any notable defence - same with damage, accuracy, resistance, regen, recovery, etc.

My Ice Tank hates Rulaaru, Nemesis, Knives - anything with high accuracy and defence debuffs - but you just have to learn to deal with it. I have to be more careful, but it's still more than possible to tank them in a capable team.

Tanking (and I wish I didn't have to keep saying this) is not about taking damage. Tanking is about taking aggro. The perfect counter-example of this are Granite-only Stone tanks who are repeatedly the last one standing against huge mobs because they're virtually unkillable, but they simply can't control the aggro so all their teammates die. It doesn't matter how much damage you can or can't take, the important thing is that you can hold the attention of the mobs so that the rest of your team can do their jobs without having to worry about getting one-shotted by something that got loose.

What about Healing Arrow?

[ QUOTE ]
So, i`m sorry but ultimately, unless our opponent is S/L we simply cannot function as intended and other ATs can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you can - just not without effort. If you're in a team there's usually at least one person who can buff you. There are inspirations, pool powers, IOs, temp powers, accolades; all of which can help you mitigate damage that your primary can't deal with.

When it comes down to it, you're a Tank - don't be a Statesman and only taunt or engage those mobs that you think you can probably handle without any trouble. It's your job to take on the toughest mobs as well as the weak, so that the squishier members of your team don't have to and if you don't think you can handle it, just close your eyes when you jump in to take the alpha.

If you're running away from fights (metaphorically or literally) because you've *only* got ~30% RES to a damage type then you're really doing both yourself and your team a disservice.

Well Fire & Ice can't deal with Psi damage either - and Stone is hardly overflowing with Psi protection.

In fact, unless you're a Dark Defender, Dark Scrapper or Warshade, you don't have any real Psi protection outside of Epic Pools or IOs

The amount of Psi damage done by Rikti is pretty low and only at Range. Energy damage is a lot more common, but again, it's largely at range (Some energy damage in their Swords IIRC).

To be perfectly honest, if you can't cope with Tanking now, you probably will be screwed come I10, but the rest of us will be quite happy to carry on the way we are - I don't think anyone who has played with any of my tanks could accuse me of being a "3rd rate scrapper" under any circumstances.

It would be a great help if you could post your build so that we know how your tank is built up to this point.

EA is good, but you have to walk a fine line between life and death - during those periods where you're running with "minus" SOs, you really notice it. That said, when it's on form you'll be able to take on as much as any other Brute.

Stamina-less is quite doable with EA thanks to Energy Drain and Conserve Power, but really it's only practical to go Stamina-less from the start if you take Dark Melee and get Dark Consumption.

The other thing going for the DM/EA combo is that the Dark Melee accuracy debuffs give you a nice defence boost and Touch of Fear can really make you hard to hit.

It depends.

For Elec, I would agree with you; for EA, however, as you're not going to get hit as often, a big heal is often more useful.

Dark Consumption does damage, Energy Drain/Power Sink drains foe end - hurdle doesn't.

I took my DM/EA Brute to 50 this week without Stamina and from an endurance point it's pretty much the same as Elec.

Dark consumption is good, especially with its near 0 end cost, but its recharge is fairly long - it may not seem long, but your endurance drops pretty quickly when you're attacking constantly and Brutes don't get a lot of time to stop and rest - and it doesn't recover a huge amount per mob without slotting for end mod.

Energy Drain is up much more often and can recover more end, but it does cost more - I believe the Elec counterpart is Power Sink and I can't really vouch for its efficiency.

Finally you get Conserve Power, which makes a huge difference while its running, but it has a very long recharge - I think it's down for about 4 minutes with 3 recharges. That said, with my planned IO build I should be able to get that down to a 90 second downtime.

In summary, it's quite possible to do, but you struggle a little until you get your 2nd end recovery power and you may have trouble against end-draining mobs like Mu or Carnies.

As for DM, Siphon Life is very important as you don't get a self heal in EA/Elec and it can't be interrupted (Although it does have a ToHit check). Personally I've got it slotted for 2xAcc, 3xHeal - though my IO Set slotting is slightly different.

Also, don't overlook Touch of Fear - many eschew it because it slows their fury buildup, but it is extremely useful against bosses and/or for removing problem mobs from combat until you can deal with them (Bane Spider Scouts come to mind - stops them placating you).

260 long hours, but I got there in the end.

Thanks to everyone who I've teamed with on the way up.

70ish Smashing at Lv50. It's about the same as Icicles.

[ QUOTE ]
i agree the invention system is the best thing to happen to CoX since i joined but my only worry is how long b4 ppl inviting u teams (high lvl) start asking if u have got these bonuses? its hard enough now bein a INV gettin invited to a STF..

[/ QUOTE ]

Try being an Ice Tank. Apparently a team that one of my friends was on tonight refused to believe that it was even possible to do the STF with an Ice Tank (OK, I died a bit, but we still did it).

Cheers for that Max, I'd missed that in the Slow sets.

I know Stimulant is more useful, but I'm ever so slowly working my way towards the Healing badges

Take the simple, masochistic approach and go all Human Form.

What I hope will be my final IO build for Daps - although it seems to be changing hourly at the moment.

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.153
http://www.onthejazz.co.uk/hu/mhd.php

Daps: Level 50 Mutation Brute
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Energy Aura
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- Acc/Dmg(A), Dmg/EndRdx(11), Dmg/Rchg(11), Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 1: Kinetic Shield -- Def/EndRdx(A), Def/Rchg(3), Def(3), Def/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Rchg+(15)
Level 2: Smite -- Acc/Dmg(A), Dmg/EndRdx(5), Dmg/Rchg(5), Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 4: Power Shield -- Def/EndRdx(A), Def/Rchg(7), Def/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Def(13), Rchg+(15)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- Rchg+(A)
Level 8: Shadow Maul -- Acc/Dmg(A), Dmg/EndRdx(9), Dmg/Rchg(9), Acc/Rchg(31), Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), Dam%(46)
Level 10: Entropy Shield -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Aid Other -- IntRdx-I(A)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(17), RechRdx-I(17)
Level 18: Dark Consumption -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(19), RechRdx-I(19)
Level 20: Energy Cloak -- Def/EndRdx(A), Def/Rchg(21), Def/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Def(46), Rchg+(50)
Level 22: Siphon Life -- Regen/Rcvry+(A), Rcvry+(23), Regen+(23), Heal(43), Heal/EndRdx(43), Heal/Rchg(43)
Level 24: Aid Self -- IntRdx-I(A), Heal(25), Heal/EndRdx(25), Heal/Rchg(37)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 28: Energy Drain -- EndRdx-I(A), EndMod-I(29), EndMod-I(29), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 30: Touch of Fear -- EndRdx/Fear(A), Fear/Rng(31), Acc/Fear/Rchg(31), Dam%(34), Acc/Rchg(46)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- Acc/Dmg(A), Dmg/EndRdx(33), Dmg/Rchg(33), Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 35: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 38: Overload -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), Heal-I(39), Heal-I(39), Heal-I(40), Rchg+(40)
Level 41: Gloom -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Dark Obliteration -- Acc/Dmg(A), Dmg/EndRdx(45), Dmg/Rchg(45)
Level 47: Summon Widow -- Dmg/EndRdx(A), Acc/Dmg(48), Dmg(48), Acc(48), RechRdx-I(50), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 49: Dampening Field -- ResDam/Def+(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)


Copy & Paste this data chunk into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build.
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Notable bonuses include:
+3% Defense(All)
+66% Enhancement(Accuracy)
+58.8% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
+179.9 (12%) HitPoints
+213% Regeneration (Including Health)
+125% Recovery (No Stamina)

That massive recharge buff means that Hasten is down for only around 30 seconds , my Patron pet is almost Perma and both Conserve Power and Overload are available almost 50% of the time.

What I hope will be my final IO build for Spad - although it seems to be changing hourly at the moment.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.153
http://www.onthejazz.co.uk/hu/mhd.php

Spad: Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Medicine
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Frozen Armor -- Def/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Def(3), Def/EndRdx(9), Rchg+(13), Def/Rchg(33), EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 1: Scorch -- Acc/Dmg(A), Dmg/EndRdx(9), Dmg/Rchg(11), Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15)
Level 2: Hoarfrost -- Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Rchg(3), Heal/Rchg(5), Heal(7), Heal/EndRdx(11), ResDam/Def+(15)
Level 4: Combustion -- Acc/Dmg(A), Dmg/EndRdx(5), Dmg/Rchg(7), Acc/Rchg(33), Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), Dam%(50)
Level 6: Wet Ice -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Air Superiority -- Dmg-I(A)
Level 10: Chilling Embrace -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Taunt -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 14: Fly -- Fly(A), EndRdx(17), EndRdx/Fly(17)
Level 16: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 18: Health -- Regen/Rcvry+(A), Heal(19), Regen+(19), Rcvry+(36)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(21), EndMod-I(21)
Level 22: Glacial Armor -- EndRdx/Rchg(A), Def/Rchg(23), Def/EndRdx(23), Def(34), Rchg+(34), Def/EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 26: Icicles -- Acc/Rchg(A), Acc/Dmg(27), Dmg/EndRdx(27), Dmg/Rchg(34), EndRdx-I(36)
Level 28: Energy Absorption -- RechRdx-I(A), Rchg+(29), Def(29), Def/EndRdx(36), Def/Rchg(37), EndMod-I(37)
Level 30: Fire Sword Circle -- Acc/Dmg(A), Dmg/EndRdx(31), Dmg/Rchg(31), Acc/Rchg(31), Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), Dam%(48)
Level 32: Aid Other -- IntRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Incinerate -- Acc/Dmg(A), Dmg/EndRdx(37), Dmg/Rchg(40), Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 38: Greater Fire Sword -- Acc/Dmg(A), Dmg/EndRdx(39), Dmg/Rchg(39), Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Dam%(40), Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 41: Aid Self -- IntRdx-I(A), Heal(42), Heal/EndRdx(43), Heal/Rchg(48)
Level 44: Char -- Acc/Rchg(A), Dam%(45), EndRdx/Hold(45), Acc/EndRdx(45), Acc/Hold/Rchg(46), Hold/Rng(46)
Level 47: Hibernate -- Heal(A), Heal/Rchg(50), Heal/EndRdx(50)
Level 49: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Dmg-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)


Copy & Paste this data chunk into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build.
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Notable bonuses include:
+4% Damage Buff
+3% Defense(All)
+9.25% Defense(Psionic)
+11.9% Resistance(Psionic)
+2.25% Max Endurance
+59% Enhancement(Accuracy)
+37.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
+253 (13.5%) HitPoints
+177% Recovery (Includes Stamina)
+288% Regeneration (Includes Health)

The build has been designed to take maximum advantage of IOs and Sets without overly crippling the Non-IO/Half-IO builds that will emerge during the journey. It's going to take a long time and/or a lot of Influence to finish the build, but I feel it'll be well worth it.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, it's doable, my initial build for John Wednesday about 30 months ago had no powers that involved drawing a sword - it didn't seem right for him at the time. However, at that time Burn was the best damage power in the game.

It's a hard call. I don't personally rate GFS much, but FS is good and FSC is great. If you were to live without, I'd suggest dropping into a pool for another Single-Target attack, and consider Breath of Fire (I appreciate many - most of whom have never tried this power - do not like it, but it's really not bad).

[/ QUOTE ]

GFS and FSC are infinitely better now that they've fixed the animations to remove the 2 second pause before you can use any other powers.

The biggest problem with BoF is its long activation time.

My Ice/Fire/Pyre is going all-out with IO sets - will probably destroy me financially, but a rough estimate gives me (On top of existing powers):

6% Damage Buff
9.39% Def(Psi)
3.75% Def(Rngd)
9.39% Def(AoE)
3% Def (All)
32.5% Enhance(RechargeTime)
12% HP Buff
28.5% Recovery Buff
120% Regen Buff
21% ToHit Buff

Basically, the Slow sets and they're not much to look at as it's pretty rare to put more than a couple of slots into CE.

So, unless you can really spare the extra slots, I wouldn't look at CE too closely for IO Sets.

Correct.

Doubly so if you've just played to 50 (well, anything above 22), because you're used to having one or two Acc SOs plus other buffs all the time to help with you accuracy.

A tanker is a tanker if they are good at tanking. If they need taunt to do that, or simply find it makes it easier to achieve, then so be it. I wouldn't hold it against somebody if they didn't have taunt on their tanker, as long as they're capable of tanking without it.

That said, you have to remember that a lot of people don't know how to tank at all - they play their tanker as a more resilliant, less damaging scrapper - and in those cases whether or not they have taunt is pretty much a moot point.

[ QUOTE ]
I am new to tanking too, but that doesnt mean I havent rolled a loads of tanks already.
Truth is, the only AT I didnt find amusing is the tank. I havent given up tho, I am still trying.

I've tried Inv/Em (nothing special), Stone/Ice (no endurance AND no damage), and now I play as a Ice/Em (the best so far) somedays. I hardly got them higher than lvl 12, and lvling with a tank remained a pain, no matter how hard I tried (I lvl faster with any squishy).
I know tanking gets better with time, and real life starts after 40 (or maybe sooner), but I am really curious about how the hell can one run thru the painful period and enjoy tanking.

And I still can't handle the fact that even with my armor on, they hit me hard, but most of the time I don't have them on, because I am unable to attack then (endurance issues).

Any advices are welcome, because I really want to learn how to love the Tanker AT.

(oh, and hi Knightly m8 )


Brush

[/ QUOTE ]

Tanking really starts at 22 when you get SOs, but you can still manage it below that with some skill.

One of the things you will find early on, especially with Ice Armour is that you run out of endurance a lot if you're scranking. There are two options to counter this outside of 3rd party buffs; don't attack or don't run your armours - the former is preferable where at all possible.

If you really can't afford to run all your toggles, make sure you're at least keeping Wet Ice and Chilling Embrace running or you'll start to run into trouble once you hit the teens. Once you've got Stamina (20ish) and Energy Absorption (26) you shouldn't have too many issues with endurance usage any more.

Take those two slots out of Sprint and put them into Health.
Swap one of the DEF or END enhancements in Energy Absorption for a 3rd Recharge.
Personally, I'd take taunt earlier if you plan to be a Tanker rather than a Scranker.

To make any more specific judgements it would be useful to know how you play. Team or Solo? Tanker or Scranker? Are you going primarily for Offence, Defence or a balance of the two?

That was where I got the information from for my post (CoD = City of Data = Nofuture power info pages), so I'm guessing I'm probably right, but establishing a 1% DEF difference with a power that isn't reliably stackable over a significant number of attacks (i.e. I don't think it's possible to perma double stack it without buffs) isn't exactly easy.