StratoNexus

Every AT had role bleed. Controllers and tankers manage aggro. Controllers and Defenders Buff/Debuff. Tankers and scrappers manage aggro. Scrappers and Blasters deal damage. Hell, tankers often complain that their problem is that they do not have multiple roles (although I think their damage is meaningful on teams, so I would argue that damage is a role they perform decently, if not outstandingly).

Defenders buff/debuff. They have a damage role, their only problem is that they do it poorly. I think people would be fine perceiving them as Buff/Debuff and Blast the snot out of enemies, much like people think of Controllers as aggro control and buff/debuff and people think of blasters as blast the snot out of enemies with some control.

Having multiple roles is not the problem, its the solution.

While I agree with most of this paragraph in principle, there are degrees you mention that I disagree with.

Status effects are an issue for more defenders than you represent; while I do not agree that defenders need more help with status effects, its also more prevalent than your post would lead one to believe.

Low damage output affects all defenders, even Kins (although Siphon Power is nice very early, it pales a bit by the late teens) and Stormies will have issues until the 30s and after that they merely become acceptable (vs. normal content, sure vs. one hard target, Rad may shine, but on a fast moving team those toggle debuffs rarely get the whole spawn and often don't even get applied at all). When teams want to fight all +3s and +4s, this might be alleviated somewhat.

I am not sure what defenders have issues protecting teams.

I do believe that massive AoE output solo and on small teams is an area they do not cover, actually. Only the smallest percentage of defenders can even begin to broach excellent single target output, and normally that is only applicable vs. boss level targets and higher; most missions solo and on small teams will have zero to two mobs like that. Defenders do not cover the entire range of the game as far as damage output is concerned. They are low enough in that department that a buff would not be problematic.

Blaster balance is just as or even more problematic to compare, actually.

No defender is a tankmage. Soloing GMs and soloing normal content is vastly different. Even Rad/Sonics are going to go through standard missions at a pace many brutes, scrappers, blasters, dominators, masterminds, stalkers and some tankers would find glacial. On a team, many players of defenders do not even bother blasting because they think the damage output is meaningless (while they are wrong, I have come to believe that perception is held by the majority of the population).

Mostly because "we" have been terrifed that a damage buff would make Stormies overpowered. It wouldn't and "we" should have realized that sooner.

I feel just the opposite. Its time "we" stop pretending that a damage and HP buff would make defenders overpowered. Simply stated, a damage increase and a HP increase will make all defenders more playable to more people and will NOT make any defenders overpowered.

When I was arguing this point, Arcanaville pointed this fact out to me: The Scrapper will scale vs harder targets better. Sure, vs up to +2s, it might be fairly even. Once you start hitting +3s, +4s, and larger spawns and bosses every spawn, scrappers can keep going, while blasters will be eating pavement (or slowing down to avoid eating pavement).

She mentioned this to me 2 years ago. It is even more relevant now that some type of new difficulty slider is coming in I16.

I often think that you think people are dumber than they really are (and some people do not do themselves a service in this area when they speak). OTOH, I have often been told I give people more credit than they deserve.

Outliers often get the most attention, so it makes sense this gets discussed then.

There isn't much to talk about when you are basically just saying, "Different things are different." How profound.

Especially when I believe the whole premise of the discussion centers on, "different things are too different." Some think they should be less different, others think they should be more different, and sill others think they should stay at the same difference. Also profound.

It is so true. I opted for the leadership pool on my Kin/Elec, so I usually have 4 toggles running. Now that they do not shut-off when mezzed, so much nicer. I will say that End Drain helped me on occasion vs mezzers, Transference, then Short Circuit has prevented many a mez for me.

They cannot maintain aggro while causing spawn collapse as well as most scrappers. I have indeed admitted that FF defenders are decent aggro monkeys though, so we do not need to discuss that. You asked what scrappers do on teams they do not do solo, I answered.

It is not (recently) being argued by anyone that FF defenders have issues protecting teams. The discussion is that they may provide low output in other areas, usually damage output (for themselves and their team, although, IME, blasters tend to do a lot more damage when they are bubbled, but then again, a tanker provides the same function and yet has a 23% higher base damage mod while being a bit tougher to kill than the standard FF defender).

Except that everyone else in the game is automatically teamed with a damage dealer (you can argue tankers and corruptors if you want), even when solo and on small teams. Defenders, and especially FF defenders are not. FF defenders, specifically when solo and maybe even on small teams, have low damage vs. standard content.

Is it too low? I don't know, I like teams, even duos, so I can always hire a blaster to kill for me. But it certainly is among the lowest damage you can get in the game on small teams or solo.

1) Scrappers can take and manage aggro. While they obviously do this solo, it becomes a bigger advantage teamed because it removes (or at least lessens) "The Fear".

2) FF defenders solo do not have a teammate to deal damage for them. FF defenders solo do not have someone else to take aggro (although FF defenders are actually quite adept at dealing with aggro control themselves and for teams, IME).

Scrappers can eat alphas, position spawns, and contribute decent damage to a team (some can do other things as well).

While that particular statement stood out to me as well, the average defender might not be much better than the average scrapper on a team.

I remember reading once, all ATs are support ATs. Defenders do not deserve to be at such a low damage mod. I must admit that I do not comprehend why some people find them hard to keep alive, I think their survivability is OK as is, although a small increase wouldn't be a big deal either (nothing like bubbling yourself, though).

Why should they be unable to compete in damage dealing?
Why are people so afraid of defenders dealing less damage than scrappers/blasters instead of significantly less damage?
Will it hinder a defenders primary role or destroy the basic playtsyle of the defender if we gave them a 23% increase in base damage?

They are, as you state above, already the best in their primary role. They already "break" the game performing their primary role. I'd be very hesitant about asking the devs to look at buff/debuffs (unless I wanted them reduced in some way, in which case I'd be a bit vocal about it).

Again, I believe the current secondary role of blasting can be made more attractive and effective without any fear of making defenders overpowered.

And its still blasters, IME.

Does Power Boost boost the strength of Defense debuffs?

Post build please.

Use an AV that isn't in the STF at lvl 54 and see if it still works just fine. (Note: I am not saying it won't work, its just that one has to move beyond the ones we already know will work to truly test this.)

Edit: I just re-read Combat's post where I thought he was saying he got the STF AVS to spawn at 54, but now I am unclear what he was saying.

The power needs to succeed in order to grant the buff. Web Grenade will not grant the buff unless you hit the target, Trip Mine will not grant the buff if you are interrupted (IIRC, will have to double check), but laying the mine is the success of the power, so you get the buff at that point.

Edit: Confirmed that interrupting Trip Mines and Gun Drone means no bonus. Also, when Web Grenade misses, no bonus.

I did not realize we had reliable numbers on the defense powers in those days.

I wonder how much mitigation Tough with 3 Resist SOs, Weave with 4 Def SOs, Hover with 2 Def SOs, and Stealth with 3 Def SOs gave blasters in I4.

Soloing?

Single target damage is the important thing soloing. Fossilize and Stone Prison will do pretty well in that area, and both come with a HUGE to-hit bonus. They also tend to mitigate tons of damage while dealing their damage. Few, if any (Ice comes to mind), blast sets can begin to compare.

The most (only) important low level power for a solo emp is mandatory, and is really just as good for a controller until the mid-game.

Low level Earth/Empathy should be a breeze solo, even easier if you take a pool attack (Flurry is very good DPE for a controller).

There are two reasons why I am spending time soloing an Emp/Ice defender to 20 (at least), sans Vet powers. First, I wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy or misremembering my experience with my FF/Nrg (who did use Sands of Mu, so I also wanted to try it without Vets), whom I soloed with quite frequently until the early 30s. Second, it is something interesting to do, and I will continue as long as I am enjoying myself. One thing I have enjoyed; I can still join teams with the character, turn off XP, that way most of my XP gain is still done solo, while I can break up the monotony of soloing the character.

Defenders do not need to be super soloists in my book. I just need to feel like I can occasionally solo in between teams, maybe just to catch up on a story arc or to polish off an arc I am near outleveling or just to get the last bubble and half to the next level after everyone else went to bed. The game, as is, exists at that point for me, but I have started to believe I have an unusual outlook.

The first two sentences and the last two are a bit ironic. It surprises me quite a bit that people do not feel a benefit from vigilance, but I suspect that I spend a lot more time spamming powers than most.