Sagamemnon

Have to disagree here. Mind is not the best at AOE control. You have 5 AOE controls but 2 are on really long timers. 1 is useless on teams.

Sorry but this has been debated to eternity and back. Mind has good AOE capabilities but it is not the best by a long shot. It has great tools and great damage.

Don't want to hijack this thread, but there is a great discussion on the matter of lock down power.

For the OP once you get your stride and learn how to switch mobs. You will feel obscenely powerful don't let how other sets appear dissuade you. You have a lot of wonderful tools it just takes some trial and error to figure out how they work for your style.

I agree that sonic can be light on power selection which grants you more flexibility with your primary. Slot up your sonic siphon. It will make your hard hitting attacks that much better and you'll find that enemies simply melt.

There is no such thing has a gimped controller pairing, on gimped thinking on how to bring it together.

The better question is why invite any other AT then these 2??? hehehe 4 doms & 4 trollers on a team!!! Who needs anything else?

Muwhahahhaahaha

Anyone else run into this problem? Did a manticore TF. First mish spawns are normal everything great. Last part of map BAM lvl 40 Elite Paragon Protectors in every mob. Some mobs had 2-4. It was a full team of 8

Thats right lvl 40s on a 30-35 TF!!! took us 1 hour to do first mish before GM had to complete it for us.

Each mish there after had 1 or 2 sporadically through out the map.

I actually agree with Talen on this.

Trollers are my favorite hero AT. (10 on my main hero server)
Doms are my favorite villain AT. (7 on my main villain server)

This allows me to make trollers to be on my villain server and doms on my hero server. Win/Win.

I don't think either AT has more value over the other tho. But I play for fun and not to Kill AV-X in 15 seconds solo while under constant debuff and no enhancements.

Mind gets the AOE sleep early. It is invaluable. You can sleep a mob then pick em off at your leisure. When you get terrify its containment AOE damage is perfect for this.

Sonic will help you overcome some of the later trapings. You get a really good -res power from start. Mind has some of the best single target damage capabilities. Sonic siphon also helps with those mobs that resist your main damage types (Smashing/Psi).

Sleep the mob. Hit one with your hold, sonic siphon, lift/mesmerize. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Teaming, your AOE sleep is largely useless. Terrify is even better on teams tho.

You don't much AOE control becuase you have 4 of the best single target controls. Your AOE is very late blooming and I can see the feeling of man that controller has better AOe controls but no other controller has the ability to single out a tough mob and make him your play thing.

Sleep (with good damage)
Confuse
Levitate (KU mitigates and does nice damage)
Hold

Those cover every situational mob in the game.
Someone has a really good guide on various tactics with mind. You should check it out.

I currently have a lvl 39 Dark/Rad and a 45 Rad/Dark. I made both at the same time. Theme wise one is a Seraphim the other is a Nepahlim.

Some points. My Dark/Rad has taken the 3rd damage badge by lvl 31. She is good on teams but with the toggles and AOE debuffs I draw a lot of aggro. Almost Dominator levels. A lot of fun to play tho.

My Rad/Dark holds her own solo and is way better on teams. She is also the most fun of the 2. Now that is just from my playstyle, which is very aggressive. With her I can stay next to the melee toons.

It is a matter of taste. /Rad is better for AV fights but I feel /Dark is just more versatile over all.

I'm not saying it is superior to /Rad. I'm just saying it provides a wider array of toys to cover most situations. It may not have the raw debuff power of /Rad but it does several things much better. Most of its power is also persistent were rads debuffs rely on you maintaining the toggles if that matters to you.

Dark/Rad does also offer a reason to pick up Dark Pit as you can stack the stun on top of choking cloud. Just figured I would throw that out as many people often skip it.

Of the 2 people on teams on have been more impressed with my Rad/Dark. It has better lock down capabilities and a more powerful heal (which does require a to hit check) and people notice those more then the debuffs usually.

You can't go wrong with either pairing.

Ymmv.

I have been musing that combo as well. The great thing about that pairing is Grav is a light set in the begining which allows you to slot up your fire attacks.

It will also allow you to grab more choices from your fire secondary. It also is a rare duck. I've seen so many Grav/Energy it is not funny.

Looks like a good theme, great match. Lifting people into the air then hitting em with fire priceless. I have a Grav/Thorn that duo's with a Fire/Them corr and it makes me giggle every time she hits them with a fireball in the air.

Give it a go. Check out Lilac's guide about the 2 sets. It will give you all the info you could ever need to pick powers according to your play style.

I think many people over state the whole GRAV pissing off a team mentality. Yeah it can but that is more a player fault then a GRAV fault.

Ran with a GRAV dom in the new SF last night. She was spot on with wormhole, dropping them right into the brute's lap.

Lift gets over looked frequently, mostly due to is low damage. But its a great mitigation tool that animates pretty fast.

One thing I've heard but yet to confirm is an interesting use of the dimension shift power. With the new changes to "phased" people being able to hit other phased people, you can shift a mob, then shift yourself and beat them while being untouched by anyone else.

Mind you if it works its only a nifty parlor trick but I imagine in the hands of the really creative it can produce some profound uses. Granted its only 30 seconds but a lot can be taken out in 30 seconds.

Can anyone confirm this? and does it work in Pvp.

[ QUOTE ]
One area of speculation based on the fundamental characteristics of how levels and money is decided, makes it sensible that one penalty that may exist for switching sides is a reduction back to level 1 and loss of all money. This is sensible when you think about what the levels are called and implied, for heroes levels are security levels (aka how much they establishment trusts you). It would not make sense for a villain who has become very notorious to immediately have the security level of one who has contributed to society as a pure blue-side. Same with money, money on hero side is Influence, (aka how much influence you have upon people based on actions), villains have infamy (how infamous they have become), if a villain goes blueside, then they may have to prove themselves as a good character. This system would make the switch a Pain, but yet still keep things flexible. And the process itself for redemption and falling from grace would be sensible that it would be very difficult and tough, such that maybe only high level char's can go through process of alignment change.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see your lvl as an indication of how much they trust or distrust you. That implies that a Lvl 50 has more trust then a lvl 5. When it really just means how high a threat they think you can be trusted to handle. It is a gauge of your power not how much they trust you, but rather what they trust you can handle.

I don't think that logic works. Becuase that means each time you swap, you would have to go back to lvl 1. That means lvling up a lot and constantly losing your enhancements.

Example-

Villain Lass is a lvl 50 MM. She works to become a hero BAM! she's a lvl 1 hero. (Since she has to prove her worth). She gets to lvl 20 and decides she wants to be bad. So she works to be a villain BAM! she's a lvl 1 villain.

Hence the whole point of the whole Alignment system. The idea being you are proving you want to become X by doing missions of X alignment. However many that may be will have to wait.

There is no justification for making a character lvl 1 simpily becuase they became a good or bad guy.

Use comics. Magneto has been an X-man. He didn't lose his magnetic abilities just because he is a good guy now. It didn't change his experience just which side he uses that experience for. He wasn't suddenly as weak as when he started his career as a villain.

Your lvls are not trust. They are your power and experience with them.

As far as currency goes, there are many forms of it. I can take Dollars to japan and convert it to Yen or vice versa, sometimes the dollar is stronger and others its not.

Now if it was AT swapping then yeah I could see having to start at lvl 1.

I think the problem (or cure) is with Went. I think it may be some kind of power suppression to prevent people in Wents from spamming powers (like AOE heals). When you get enough people in there doing all kinds of things it gets really annoying.

Tho the black market is far worse at times with this. Since you have all those PSW doms that fail to turn it off.

I noticed this effect on Boost Range on my Energy/Energy blaster. After WW it would no longer auto click, even after I left the zone. However hasten worked when I made that auto instead. Never went back into WW tho, so dunno if that woulda borked it as well.

Wormhole is definatly not a power to give up. It has a lot of "undocumented uses" especially on a dom. I watched a buddy wormhole the exposures out of a hami.

The KB is good for positioning. You just have to get used to the KB distance and learn how/where to position it.

Why is it that red side is always considered evil?
Why is it no one ever thinks that maybe some are just mercenaries?
Why is it every hero is a goody goody?
Maybe their blueside because it pays better?

Why do people want RP in a Game to limit their imaginations? Doesn't that just seem wrong.

I agree with someone else in this thread. Have people actually read the stories? Name me a patron arc where you don't betray them!! Yet they go "well recluse said!!" and still support you!! If they were truely evil, they would find a way to delete your toon, without recluse knowing, for what you did to them.

Why can't SoA go rogue? You forged a Destined One list!! I imagine at some point your like,
"Dam recluse I will never be good enough!!!"
"Screw you I'm going blue!! and coming back to spank you."
"AGAIN!!!"

Ever do Willy Wheeler arcs? Ace McKnight anyone?!!??!
He was a bad guy who was actually a longbow!! He was doing stuff for bad guys to hurt *cue dramatic music* Other bad guys!!

Why is such a traumatic experience if SoAs go blue? or peacebringers go red?

I say bring it on. I can't wait to see a full team of Veats blueside and an all kheldian LRSF!!!

Your grav/kin will be a feast. One of my favorite troller combos. I have commented on its versatility and power many a time.

I had no problems soloing at any point in my career. NONE.

Grav has the best solo damage power. Propel. People knock it, they turn their noses at it but make no mistake it is key. It also has a huge KB component that many people miss. So it does huge damage and acts a soft control by knocking your mob away. Since your immob doesn't prevent this you get extra mitigation.

Even the dreaded ruin mages were nothing. The good thing is that propel does huge damage with a long activation, in this case it works well for you low levels.

My encounters went something like this. Immob-propel.

By the time the ruin mage hit me with a hold propel was activating. I was held during the activation and he was dead soon after. If propel didn't defeat him he was knocked into a wall which gave me time to propel his [censored] again since his hold wares off, usually before he gets to his feet.

Seriously with just basic damage IOS at lvl 12.

Rad is definatly gonna be a beast. That being said don't feel as tho you can't make grav/kin work. It works really well. Just takes a different approach and is a breed you don't see very often.

Now again I have to state that propel is terrible on teams for the most part since they kills stuff fast. Unless your on a slow moving team.

Oh and Siphon Power makes propel that much more dangerous since it has huge damage it gets really good mileage from it.

Stick it out with the grav/kin and you will be rewarded. I am not gonna tell you it is the OMG combo of year but it is very effective. I enjoy it, ymmv.

In that regards.

1) Crush (6 Slots) & Transfusion (6 Slots)
2) Gravity Distortion (6 Slots)
4) Siphon Power (2 Slots)
6) Propel (6 Slots)
8) Hurdle
10) Hasten (2 Slots)
12) Siphon Speed (3 Slots)
14) SS
16) Health
18) Gravity Distortion Field (4 Slots)
20) Stamina (3 Slots)
22) Speed Boost
24) Grant Invisibility
26) Wormhole (6 Slots)
28) Invisibility
30) Phase Shift
32) Singularity (6 Slots)
35) Transference (6 Slots)
38) Fulcrum Shift (6 Slots)

Slotting is a matter of preference I won't get too far into that as tastes vary.

That gets you the powers you want. Makes you good on teams & Solo.

Very Dr. Strange-esque.

Hope this helps.

Ice/Ice is fantastic. However you have to accept one sure fire fact more so then any other dom.

YOU WILL DIE on teams. Seriously you draw aggro like no other dom ever could.

Your always in the middle. Even Arctic Air, Ice Slick will not save your bacon on large teams.

That being said its a helluva rush and ride and when you don't face plant you'll pat yourself.

Seriously I had a buddy create one after he saw mine on a team. He got his to 50 (Before AE and with no farms) but earned a lot of DEBT badges and DAMAGE badges

Those mobs remember who the reason for them being slowed was. They will thank you in kind.

With the overall damage buffs its should be even sicker and maybe a lot less face planting. Mines been at 35 (too many Alts) but I am soo looking forward to picking her back up once 15 drops.

Earth gets my vote for numerous reasons the best being -def. Seriously, your heal needs to hit to work. With all that -def it stands a much better chance of working, with less accuracy over all.

It also helps Fulcrum Shift, Siphon Speed, Siphon Power, and transference.

Ice does get AA, but its semi-reliable ( I have it on an Ice dom and a troller) its not as functional as it appears on paper.

Earth gets a longer lasting hold (best there is in a primary). It also gets a stun which can take out most mobs.

Siphon Power is great for low damage sets too. It helps pick up the pace a bit.

Siphon power speeds up all those long recharges so you will always have a mob-nuetering power available.

Neither is greatly superior but I think the -def helps out Kinetics in ways no other set really does. However Ice does play in melee more, which is why I think you see it more. Most Earthers like to keep their distance.

Some different point of views, Having an Earth/Therm buddy toon of my own.

I would not take stone cages at lvl 2. It draws way too much aggro and is too costly that low. I would take Stone Prison @ lvl 2 for some much needed damage.

Definatly drop Salt Crystals @ lvl 10. If you want I would grab your AOE immob if you really want it.

I did not take my shields until the 20s. The reason being that I find pre 20 they are not that vital, more so if your solo.

Grab your AOE heal @ lvl 4

If your not partial to SJ I would keep hurdle @ lvl 6, take quicksand @ lvl 8, hasten @ lvl 10, stalagmites @ 12 and SS @ lvl 14.

Grab health @ 16, then EQ @ 18, Stamina @ 20

That allows you some freedom. By the 20s you'll prolly be teaming more. If so your shields can be grabbed @ 22+24.

Your AOE Hold @ 26

I'm not a big fan of the AOE immob in earth, just a personal taste. I like the KD from earthquake and with good recharge it can be up very often.

After 26 the only earth power left that truely is needed is Poo Man. That leave 28/30 for personal choices.

Tho I strongly suggest Forge at 28 for teaming and for your pet.

Your 30s are really locked down. 32 Poo Man, 35 Heat Exhaustion, 38 Melt Armor.

Epics are a mixed bag each has its own niche.

Earth works thematically. Lotsa great synergy too.

Fire gives some good damage.

Ice has some fun powers.

Psi is rather meh.

Primal gives you some great END management. Which allows for spamming of heals. Plus Power Boost.

I would try to maximize your recharge over +damage. Recharge brings your heals & controls up faster. +Dam won't get you as much of a boost as you don't really have good damage. It will help but you but you won't see as much from it as some other sets.

Hope this gives you some alternative ideas to consider about how you can build your new troller.

Controls may be better support combos. Their buffs/debuffs/heals are not as potent as a defender. You also get them much later.

However controls lock down the battlefield while defender are blasting enemies.

If you want to blow stuff up while supporting, then defender wins.

That being said I think defenders can get a bum rap in game, if they are not a healing set. I have run with many Trick Arrows, Sonics, Force Fields, and many have horror stories about being kicked from teams or over looked.

I find that for most controllers people seem to disregard the secondary because they expect them to lock stuff down and see their secondary as weak.

Note: These are not my views but they are the views of many I have come across. Now the more experienced player will know exactly what that Trick Arrow is doing and not go "GET A HEALOR!!"

In the end its a matter of Support-Blasting or Control-Supporting. There is no bad secondary or primary only bad players. Yes some do things better and some have a higher learning curve but in general they all have their niche. Just a matter of finding a player who likes that style and making it shine.

I just posted a good combo for this.

Look at plant!!! Seriously!! Audrey is a decent pet now.

If however your not content on plant. Ice/Sonic is fun (have one at 20 partnered with a scrapper).

As much as it pains me to say this.

Plant, all the way. Seeds of Confusion will make posi a breeze. AOE confuse lvl 8. Good damage AOE immobilize. Seriously think about that.

Plant/Sonic, is really good

1) Strangler
1) Sonic Siphon (great -res)
2) Roots
4) Entangle (for damage)
6) Hurdle
8) Seeds of Confusion
10) Hasten
12) Users Choice
14) Super Speed

That right there will make soloing posi a breeze. If your rich and can afford a stealth IO for SS. With the stealth IO you can take tp ally at lvl 12. That will allow you and a buddy to whoop [censored] really quick.

The -res from siphon is an impressive 22%. That helps mobs rip themselves apart quicker.

If you got a buddy whose melee the -res aura from sonic helps even more for the synapse runs and beyond.

16) Disruption Field
18) Health
20) Stamina

People sleep on sonic. But it is seriously a set to be looked at. The shields are fantastic (unless you hate the grfx). Its not a healing set but you won't need a heal with it backing up plant. Plus you get a really good power in Sonic Dispersion. Add into that mix Liquefy, which is a great power for the later TFs.

Just a thought for you consider.

Shhhhh keep this to ourselves. If trick arrow gets discovered it will be mass produced. I like being the rare bird on a tf.

My mind/trick arrow is flat out fantastic. My earth/trick arrow is still in the fledgling stage but should be an absolute tf monster.

I just don't want people who don't like the set trying it. Then blaming the set for their poor play ability with it.

I feel bad for Trick Arrow defenders. They get shunned so many times. Every time I invite one to a TF, i always get a reply a kin to "I don't have a healing arrow". To which I always reply, I know and don't care, just get in here.

So for my fellow Trick Arrow players.

KEEP IT UNDER YOUR HATS!! hehehehe When one finds the Fountain of Gold, one does not tell the whole planet where that fountain is!!

Seriously tho, spread the word through the underground.

One question. Can you slot a karma in both hover and steamy mist for +8 KB protection? I don't recall ever seeing UNIQUE listed on karma. So I think the answer is yes but want to be sure.

Mind may not have the AOE capacity of Earth. It does however trump it in the damage capacity.

Levitate, Mesmerize, Terrify. I think its worth noting that terrify is one of the few decent damage AOE attacks in a controller primary.

On a side note, I believe Singularity is the single best pet at Lock Down. Which may also sway your vote. I think if you consider Singularity then Grav jumps up the ranks as a strong set for lock down.

Ah, you are correct. Thank you I am always getting those 3 mixed up.

Shows how often I make rads.

Earth/Trick Arrow, signed here.

Earth-
Aoe Stun
Aoe KD
Aoe Hold (that lasts a really good time)
Aoe Sleep
Aoe Immob
Aoe Slow

Single Target Hold
Single Target Immob

Thats 6 AOE powers, all good btw. Yes I think most people skip sleep. But that is a merit to strength of its other 4 AOE powers.

Trick Arrow
Single Target Immob
Single Target Hold

Aoe Slow
Aoe Hold
Aoe Knockdown
Aoe Sleep (tho not 100%) with damage debuff

Note I am only counting powers that constitute lock down. I consider sleep to be a good lock down power.

Also Earth has -DEF which contributes to team more so then most other secondary effects. -Rech is nice for long fights but if your team is hitting things easier, then they are doing more damage, which means stuff is eating carpet quicker.

Now that being said. Plant has a very strong contender in Seeds. Seeds is so good it borders on abusive. Its the sole reason many people even take plant. Its so good they gave plant Spirit Tree!!! I mean seriously, read that. SPIRIT TREE!!! That basically tells you cast seeds then cast spirit tree, pick fruit from tree while mobs destroy themselves. However against confuse resistant foes it sorta lacks. But hey those are few and far between. Plant also gets an Aoe Sleep, and carrion creepers to help lock things down.

Plant
Single Target Immob
Single Target Hold

Aoe Sleep
Aoe Immob
Aoe Confuse (Tho it is a cone)
Aoe Hold
Aoe Knockdown + (tho obscenely long recharge)

Not counting seeds, earth has better recharges on most of its powers, which I think nudges it ahead.

Mind
Single Target Hold
Single Target Immob
Single Target Confuse
Single Target Knock-up
Single Target Sleep

Aoe Sleep
Aoe Terrify +Damage
Aoe Hold
Aoe Confuse (Long Recharge tho)

Trick arrow simply gives better lock down then any other secondary. Read LOCK DOWN not debuffs.

Radiation only has 2 lock down powers. One of which is an aura but it is only Mag 1. The other is an additional Aoe hold. However they are both PBAOE. Rad also has a good slow, tho it is an anchor power.

Hope this helps.

I have a 44 Grav/Kin. I can give you some advice that worked for me. It however is my own playstyle preference. Some will agree, some will not.

I took propel and crush. Slotted both for damage. The reason i took propel is containment. With containment and slotted for damage it takes many things out with one bang. Propel is good damage for amount of end it cost as well. Now with Kin end isn't a problem once you get tranference but getting there it does help.

Example.
Crush- 30.6 Damage, 1.33 Sec Activation, 4 sec rech, 7.8 End
Propel- Damage 59.4, 3.5 Sec Activation, 8 Sec rech, 9.36 End

Casting crush 2x cost 15.6 End to get roughly the same damage. Crush is also DoT, were propel is frontloaded. So yeah crush can be spammed quicker but that damage still takes longer for all of it to register.

Yes propel is really long, but I think its worth it on a troller. Its not the most opitmal of powers but its not that bad when you factor everything in.

Propel is one of those love it or hate it powers. I love it. Its not an optimal power but it is a fun power solo. I find the activation time is trivial for me for the damage it does with contaiment. It all balances out in the end so I went with the power that I enjoy watching. The KB on it also a really good tool. The KU on lift doesn't always make for reliable mitigation as mobs sometimes land on their feet.

Wormhole is great solo. On teams you prolly won't get much use out of it. If they are killing things fast. It does help with herding, if thats your thing. You can drop a few mobs directly on that tank.

Singularity is great when slotted with damage. The thing that many people don't notice is that singularity has fast attacks and uses them but you don't it animate them. So you can see Poo man smashing stuff or jack slashing. The singularity just pulses and mobs fly up and away.

I kept siphon power. I do a lot of low level TFs with mine and the damage boost can be nice. More importanly it gimps their damage as well.

Siphon speed is a must and should be slotted with lotsa ACC and some good rech.

Stay by your singularity. It will keep those troublesome melee toons aways. You can always move in and use your heal on that held mob if you need, then back up to the singularity.

I enjoy my Grav/Kin a lot. Its not the quickest killing toon. Its not the flashiest toon. But she is all kinds of fun and very effective solo and on a team.

Your playstyle may dictate differently. Just find your own flow with the combo and don't listen to anything that detours you from enjoying your toon.

You may try it and hate it. But you should definatly give them all a try, and with dual builds you can. Everyone has their own playstyle and bias. Only you can decide whats best for you. I just wanna give you another perspective to consider.

Good luck and enjoy the ride, I did and still am.