Oedipus_Tex
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Posts
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Quote:What?Originally Posted by ketch
Let us not forget Ice Controllers who would no longer rely on Frostbite for containment, which effectively negates one of their best controls. -
Quote:Stuns?
Actually that IS the idea but it was extended to other mez powers such as sleep (some of which like Salt Crystals, Frozen Aura, and Flash Freeze) do put the target in a "container".
Flash? Blind? Char? Cinders? Dominate? Total Domination? EM Pulse?
Heck, Knockout Blow?
Containment doesn't mean "containment." It just means you are shooting at an enemy that's been partially disabled.
Remember, this is the game where someone can get hit by a truck and then you set them on fire and they are completely healed, and where you can microwave people back to life. I don't think an argument about "concept" really works here. -
What IS the concept of Containment? Certainly not being "contained" in anything.
Just exploring. -
Thoughts?
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I just assumed Ice Slick wasn't working because someone on the team was using cages. Enemy groups that resist Ice Slick completely are pretty rare. Sometimes there are 1 or 2 enemy types within a group that resist it though.
I will admit Ice Slick mostly sucks when you're teamed with a Fire or Plant Controller. Or even Earth Controllers, who seem willfully ignorant that spamming Stone Cages on top of a knockdown zone means enemies will stand up and shoot at you. It's one thing when enemies aren't able to hurt you, and something else entirely when the group is about to wipe and someone doesn't just throw out an AoE cage power, but constantly refreshes it in a bid to ensure nothing ever falls down. -
I still think this build could use some work. Here are some specific comments:
- Consider nixing some of the travel powers, unless you are taking them for concept reasons. Personally I would drop both Hover and Fly. Super Speed is useful for combining with Arctic Fog for PvE invisibility. Recall Friend is helpful for stealthing the team. Fly is useful for... looking like you are flying without a jet pack.
- Do NOT drop Ice Slick. Take it at as soon it is available. This is one of your bread and butter controls and you will be seriously gimped without it. I see someone recommended dropping it but IMO that would be a major mistake, on the order of a Force Field Defender skipping one of the ally shields.
- Shiver or Snow Storm, but not both. I personally prefer Shiver even though it requires more slotting and a to-hit check, because Snow Storm saps too much endurance and the fact that if you get mezzed, it detogs.
- Swap Arctic Air and Hasten. At the level you are taking Hasten right now you don't actually have any powers that need Hastening.
- Read the boards for how to slot Arctic Air. It needs to be frankenslotted for Confuse duration, endurance, the Contagious Confusion proc.
Hope that helps. -
The way to totally abuse Bonfire is to run office maps. When you see an enemy group standing in a conference room, throw the Bonfire right in the middle of the table. The area is impossible to escape for most enemies and they will be stuck to the wall for most of fight.
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Quote:I tried to answer this earlier, but my post was a little unclear.Originally Posted by BrandX
I think the question has been lost on the replies.
He was asking if anyone had tried to Stack WoC with Artic Air, to stack the confuses.
This is a question I too am interrested in hearing.
Yes, it stacks. But it's probably not worth it. Out of WoC you will get at best around a 3 second confuse every 4 seconds with a pretty low chance to hit. WoC with the Contagious Confusion is quite a bit better than that. But, Contagious Confusion is a set-unique, so you can slot it only one time anywhere in your build. To put the proc anywhere but Arctic Air would seriously gimp you. So AA + WoC is sadly not that great.
Where Ice Control might benefit from WoC would be from proc stacking, but it just seems like major proc overkill to me. The radius on WoC is only 8ft, close enough that you will get hit with melee attacks. If you are some kind of Controller-blapper who doesn't already have a Confuse power--a Fire Controller let's say--you might get some use out of it. Ice Controllers unfortunately don't benefit as much.
[Edit: Forgot to add that an Illusion or Mind Controller might have a use for WoC too, since it is non-notify. In theory you could stand invisibily next to a group of enemies you need to Confuse and stack your snipe-Confuses on the them. Why you would actually do this I have no idea, but on Task Forces sometimes my Mind Controller has won the day simpy by stealthing to the end of a mission and confusing the bosses until they kill each other. WoC would at least add some extra damage to that mix.] -
Anything that is not a simply an expansion of concepts already handled multiple times. Fire/Ice/Earth/Dark/Sonic/Electric I love you but enough is enough. I want powersets that allow me to create totally new character concepts. Shields, Pain, Dual Pistols and Demons got this idea and ran with it.
I also want to see things that are a little unusual. I have a feeling that if Kinetics hadn't shipped with the original game, people would reject it later for being too "out there."
To name sets I specifically want, Insect Control is way up on my list, because it's a concept completely unmilked so far. Ditto Water Control, and a Luck/Fortune buff set. I'd also really like to see an armor set based around Intangibility, but I can see how it's challenging.
For extreme out there concepts, I wish there was an armor set for Cloning. I'm sure its been discussed before, but basically give the character the ability to split off clones of himself/herself. For balance reasons these clones would probably be unable to use special abilities of the person creating them, and also probably be outside their control, unless we made this a Mastermind set. -
Quote:Yep, they do.
To the best of my knowledge, procs in "do not notify" powers still notify the target. -
I forgot to add one oddity about WoC. To my knowledge it is the only damage power in the game that doesn't notify enemies. So, in theory, you could stand around invisibly and slowly damage critters and they won't react. The damage is pathetic though (base 3.67 every 4 seconds), and it would take so long to kill an enemy this way that it hurts my head to think about.
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World of Confusion is trash for anything but slotting procs. The power pulses every 4 seconds and the base confusion is a pathetic base 1.5 second mag 2. You can slot it with Contagious Confusion, but since CC performs better slotted in Arctic Air for Ice, Seeds of Confusion for Plant, Confuse for Mind, or Deceive for Illusion, the control sets that could stack with it would largely be gimped to try. Of these sets, Ice probably benefits the most, but not really by a lot.
The one Control set that might see some benefit from WoC is Fire, simply because there is no better power to slot Contagious Confusion in, and you're likely to be in melee-ish range anyway. Earth or Gravity might also grab it as a way to fully slot the purple confuse set, which nets +10% Recharge and a huge +5 ranged defense. But IMO that's playing against the strengths of those sets. -
Most fun: Force Bubble. I could (and do) spend hours running around Steel Canyon with Super Speed flinging enemies all over the zone. It's the most bizarrely hilarious activity, even if totally pointless. I also use the power to play "minion hockey" in Atlas Park. The goal is to knock a minion through the "goal," the steps leading up to Miss Liberty where the two police drones are. A perfect shot and you can slam an enemy at hundreds of miles an hour straight past the drones. Personal best score: shooting a level 1 Hellion up the slope, over Miss Liberty's head, between Atlas' legs, and skating into a group of heroes assembling for a costume contest.
Ninja Run is probably number 2 for me.
Least fun: Is there a least fun? Maybe Entangling <Yawn> Arrow. -
It works, but it's extremely taxing on your endurance bar. You have to refresh the cages every 12 seconds to keep things from being thrown from the Bonfire. I gave up the tactic after a few dozen tries.
I feel Bonfire itself is an underrated power, though. When I play ranged squishies and the Fire Controller remembers to throw out a Bonfire, thats usually where I go stand. -
BTW, I noticed one secondary you haven't yet tried is Cold.
I have a 50 Mind/Cold Troller that I love love love. I hadn't really thought through the synergies before trying it, but I find the combo of Super Speed + Arctic Fog for invisibility combined with Mind's 3 snipe-mezzes to be really awesome. The cone fear benefits from being able to position yourself safely too. And, because of Heat Loss, I can keep Super Speed up indefinitely without taxing my endurance.
The "downside," I guess, is it's a very tight build, but I was still able to fit in most of the powers (the power I ended up skipping is the epic armor). The other thing is that it while provides great single target abilities from early on, you don't become a good AoE Controller until the 30s. But, wow, what a great one you unexpectedly blossom into. Don't give up until you've taken Mind to high levels (and ignore anyone who says Mass Confusion is worse than Seeds of Confusions, as they serve different functions).
One last thing. If you go Mind/Cold, consider the Primal APP for Power Boost. Both Mind and Cold benefit hugely from it. Specifically, Benumb pushes significant boundaries. -
Quote:I'm not an expert on thread scanning but I'm not certain I can buy the claim that no one has talked about Mind/TA or Illusion/TA in nearly six months. Partly because I have talked about. It's possible that I was wrong when I said that Trick Arrow is most commonly associated with Mind and Illusion on the boards; perhaps it was just stuck anecdotally in my mind because it was a board suggestion that created my Illusion/TA Controller (mothballed until he can be rerolled Illusion/Traps). Still, I think your scan of posts is somewhat misleading, as most of them are people asking "Will this combination work?" not exclaiming "Trick Arrow is so amazing!"
That goes all the way back to August, 18th of 2009 and not a single post title mentioning Ill/TA or Mind/TA.
Just for kicks, I decided to do a search for "Trick Arrow" on the Corruptor boards, and pulled up these posts from the past few months:
- Assault Rifle / Trick Arrow ?
- Archery/Trick Arrow Q.
- Arch/TA Advice needed
- Archery/Trick Arrow Corruptor
- Trick Arrow Yay!
- Arch/TA corrs! SQUEE!!
- This work? (First sentence: "I'm leveling up this Archery/TA..."
Also, rather pointedly:
- PGA in trick arrow - why is the damage debuff so low?
I didn't say it didn't combine, I said it didn't stack. There is a difference in terminology here and I apologize if it was misleading.Quote:Your contention that OSA doesn't combine well with any other control is likewise bogus.
This is a completely different argument than what was being discussed. The argument is not "Trick Arrow is super popular on Illusion Controllers," it's that "of Controllers playing Trick Arrow, Illusion is a more common primary." These are different claims. What you've actually just provided is evidence that Trick Arrow isn't a popular Controller secondary (which I would agree with), which calls into question the statement made by someone earlier that TA is "nearly overpowered" on Controllers.Quote:Even "being fair" and removing those threads from the list there are no threads that pair /TA with either Ill or mind going back 5 months. "Most" threads that offer up combinations for Ill reccomend /rad, /storm, or /FF mainly due to the synergies with PA or the potential for +rech from set bonuses or IOs.
If this was on Virtue and the guy had a bright red big bubble, I, too, have fallen victim to him. Like, seriously. How many times does the group have to wipe before you put bubbles on the team, and, like, actually turn on Dispersion Bubble ("it eats too much endurance when I'm trying to fly" is NOT going to cut it as ane excuse.)Quote:...a spectularly hideous TF that was lengthened to almost 3 times the amount of time it should have taken by a very poorly played Grav/FF. -
The thing is if you read the Controller boards you'll see that the two sets that TA is usually associated with are Mind and Illusion. Why? Not because the powers stack, but because they add things those power sets lack. Taking TA on a Controller for stacked mezz is 90% pointless because:
- The single target immob in all Control sets that have it is already mag 4, which will immob most bosses anyway, on top of doing damage and a debuff superior to Entangling Arrow.
- The need to hold bosses instantly is overstated. Controller single target holds already recharge in 8 seconds, 4 seconds once slotted, and the Controller won't have charged in with a hold at all, but with an AoE mezz. Instantly holding bosses is far more important on ATs like Blasters, Corruptors or Defenders who lack good defenses that are up every fight.
- Oil Slick Arrow doesn't stack with controls in any meaningful way. In fact bugs in pet AI make them run away from the slick once it's on fire. -
Quote:I should clarify. The Control aspects I was referring to are the Controller Primary sets, not Trick Arrow. I was replying to someone who said that Trick Arrow is "nearly overpowered" on a Controller, and my opinion is that it is not.
Oedipus,
I respectfully disagree that the Control aspects are meaningful enough to keep you alive. If all the powers were on 45 second timers they might be because you could stack all your big powers and make significant mitigation. But with many of the "control" powers up every third mob its just not fun and you don't feel like you contribute to the team like you should as a defender.
Mostly because of Plant and not so much because of TA. On the debuff side specifically, I hate to be bearer of bad news, but your Plant/TA isn't debuffing anywhere near the capacity of a Plant/Cold, Plant/Storm, or Plant/Radiation.Quote:My Plant/TA has so many different way to immobilize, hold, mez, and debuff enemies that it's hard NOT to be useful.
In the defense of people who primarily play Controllers (like, me) Controllers have not yet gained access to Traps or Dark Miasma. There was a really long period where Defender TA was considered just fine too. That era basically ended when Traps arrived and it was realized you could out debuff and control TA while simultaneously running around with mezz protection.Quote:I really don't want to hear any controllers opinions, at least in if they are saying that Trick Arrow is working. -
Just a note that the redraw issue is still present. Back Alley Brawler thought he had it fixed but there were issues with it, and he had to go back to the drawing board.
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Quote:I don't see this being the case at all. IMO the control powers fill in for some of TAs weaknesses and make it less lopsided, but it is still weaker than the other secondaries. The Control combinations that edge toward overpowered are the ones that award endurance, recharge, damage, and healing in one package: Kinetics and Radiation. If the Controller secondaries are participants in a high school prep rally, Trick Arrow is sitting under the bleachers with Sonic Resonance smoking cigarettes and complaining that life sucks.
HOWEVER when it is used as a controller secondary it is nearly overpowered. Controllers are control oriented. The additional controls make for an ubertroller. Since controllers also have buff/debuffs as a secondary the lower debuff values of TA are lost in the white out of the extra power provided by the control of TA. The lower buff numbers make almost no diference since the extra control gives you all the extra time and safety that the team needs to safely defeat a spawn. -
I hope I don't sound too harsh in my replies below. I just have a pretty strong opinion about TA and its shortcomings. Assorted replies below.
Quote:It does. What we are arguing is that it is worse at it than sets that both buff and debuff.TA debuffs, and everybody who plays the set knows this.
Not just not the not the best. One of the worst single target holds a squishy can take. Even the holds available to Blasters--including the ones in the only available through APPs--are better.Quote:TA has a single target hold (not the best ST hold, based on stats)...
I consider the recharge part of the stats, and the best thing I can say for EMP Arrow is that it doesn't totally suck. Controller AoE holds are kind of the same way.Quote:...and an AOE hold on long recharge that offers better stats than the AOE hold in most control primaries.
...on a base 180 second timer. This power is actually really cool, and frankly making the timer 120 or even 90 seconds would do a lot to fix this set. Right now TA is what Storm Summoning would be with Freezing Rain on a 2 minute timer.Quote:If also offers AOE knockdown through OSA...
Pretty much speaks for itself. It's the -damage component people are after anyway.Quote:...and an AOE sleep for minions through PGA (admittedly only as a 50% chance, mag 2, and short duration).
Already addressed elsewhere, but this power sucks. The only nice thing I can say about it is that the graphic is cool. I'm sure there's a worse Tier 1 power somewhere, but I'm unable to think of one offhand.Quote:It also has a single target immobilize in its tier one power. -
Quote:I totally forgot about that. Kind of brings you down to Earth when you realize you have to use powers at like, near-Defender damage values.
Finally, Repulsion Bomb. The damage is the same as Terrify, but all smashing. It's very useful when you run into psi-resistant mobs. However, a word of caution, the animation time is a bear, a smidge over three seconds. Also, it does not benefit from containment so Terrify will generally outdamage it. I found that once I had access to epics it quickly fell to disuse.
I still think it's better than Force Bubble or a Leadership power though. -
I'm posting on my lunch break. This isn't a perfect build but it's a start. It features capped Ranged Defense and +75% Recharge. A lot of the Recharge comes from Luck of the Gambler IOs, which are very expensive to purchase outright, but doable if you run Task Forces and gather merits. I think they cost around 220 merits each. Obtaining them could be a long term goal if you enjoy the character.
Specific differences between my build and yours are as follows:
- Suggest changing the Mind APP for Primal APP, mainly for Power Boost. Power Boost on a Mind Controller is disgustingly powerful. It will actually let you do a Mass Confusion that lasts 112 seconds, if Mids is to be believed. You can also Power Boost your shields if you want to. Also, by going with Primal you vary your damage type against anything resistant to mental damage.
- Changed Super Jump for Super Speed. Mind Control has three powers that are non-notify. To exploit this to its full potential, I find it helpful to have some form of stealth, which you can achieve with Super Speed plus the +Stealth Celerity IO in Sprint. You will now be able to run ahead of the team and prep enemies for their doom before the tank even takes one step toward them, in near total safety (as even if you screw up, your mezz protection and defense should see you through long enough to simply sleep them).
- Purpled out Confuse. It's a cheap purple set and the proc is pretty good. Same with Mass Hypnosis, even if the proc there isn't as great.
- Dropped a number of pool powers.
- I highly recommend taking Levitate. It's got pretty good damage, and is a great power to use on bosses you are trying to mezz. The pattern I use is Mezz > Levitate > Mezz. The knock up animation keeps them occupied while you wait for the second Mezz to stack, and it offers good damage. Levitate also fits well into your standard attack chain.
- Added in Repulsion Bomb. Slotted for damage it actually outdamages Terrify, plus it recharges faster. Not to mention the stun (not so great but we'll take it) and knockdown (a little better).
- Took Recall Friend because it's useful and it was an easy place to slot Zephyr for +defense
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Mind FF Suggest: Level 50 Mutation Controller
Primary Power Set: Mind Control
Secondary Power Set: Force Field
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Primal Forces Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Mesmerize -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(3), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(9), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(50)
Level 1: Personal Force Field -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 2: Levitate -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx:50(3), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg:50(9), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(40), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(46), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(48)
Level 4: Dominate -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx:50(5), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(5), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg:50(15), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(40), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(40)
Level 6: Confuse -- CoPers-Conf:50(A), CoPers-Conf/Rchg:50(7), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg:50(7), CoPers-Acc/Rchg:50(15), CoPers-Conf/EndRdx:50(34), CoPers-Conf%:50(39)
Level 8: Deflection Shield -- LkGmblr-Def:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(11), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(17)
Level 10: Insulation Shield -- LkGmblr-Def:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(11), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(17)
Level 12: Mass Hypnosis -- FtnHyp-Acc/Rchg:50(A), FtnHyp-Sleep/Rchg:50(13), FtnHyp-Sleep/EndRdx:50(13), FtnHyp-Plct%:50(37), FtnHyp-Acc/Sleep/Rchg:50(37)
Level 14: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 16: Health -- Heal-I:50(A)
Level 18: Total Domination -- Lock-Acc/Rchg:50(A), Lock-Rchg/Hold:50(19), Lock-%Hold:50(19), Lock-Acc/Hold:50(23), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold:50(23), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold:50(25)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod:50(21), EndMod-I:50(21)
Level 22: Dispersion Bubble -- LkGmblr-Def:50(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(31), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(31)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(25), RechRdx-I:50(29)
Level 26: Terrify -- Posi-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx:50(27), Posi-Acc/Dmg:50(27), Posi-Dmg/Rng:50(29), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(36), Abys-Acc/Fear/Rchg:50(39)
Level 28: Super Speed -- Zephyr-ResKB:50(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx:50(43)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Def:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(31), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(46)
Level 32: Mass Confusion -- Mlais-Acc/Rchg:50(A), Mlais-EndRdx/Conf:50(33), Mlais-Acc/EndRdx:50(33), Mlais-Acc/Conf/Rchg:50(33), Mlais-Conf/Rng:50(34), RechRdx-I:50(34)
Level 35: Repulsion Bomb -- Posi-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx:50(36), Posi-Dmg/Rchg:50(36), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(37), Posi-Dam%:50(39)
Level 38: Recall Friend -- Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx:50(A), Zephyr-ResKB:50(48)
Level 41: Power Blast -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx:50(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(42), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(43), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg:50(43)
Level 44: Energy Torrent -- Posi-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Posi-Dmg/Rchg:50(45), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), Posi-Dmg/Rng:50(45), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(46)
Level 47: Power Boost -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(48)
Level 49: Temp Invulnerability -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(50), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx:50(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clrty-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment -
The rules of the forum are you have to post your own build for us to mock before we can offer assistance, which we will then present by ignoring what you posted and saying "here's what I use on mine."
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Quote:This hasn't been my experience. It would be more true, to me, if the set didn't experience such significant downtime. Empathy rocks all of the other sets when its powers are up, but with two powers at base 500 second recharge, the shield on base 60 second recharge, and the Tier 9 at base 300, Empathy performs like a roller coaster in a game where we need a steam roller.
A single well-played and built Empath can give the team a level of mitigation that no other set can, (FF gives higher defense numbers but no +regen buffs or heals for those odd hits that get through).
It's a matter of opinion, but for team safety specifically I'd take a Controller with any secondary prior to an Empathy Defender. For hybrid mitigation/DPS, the Defender is just fine. But for some reason all of the Empathy Defenders I meet think they add more survival than Controllers (or even FF Defenders), which I have rarely actually witnessed.