No.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
knockdown is not essentially a mez, so how exactly would it trigger containment in the first place?
also, whats the point?
Someone wants flippy floppy powers to be more powerful.
Knockdown is really just weak knockback....if something is being knocked back its kind of hard to call them "contained".
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Knockdown doesn't fit the concept of Containment, and we don't really need the added damage. No.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Thoughts?
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What IS the concept of Containment? Certainly not being "contained" in anything.
Just exploring.
Actually that IS the idea but it was extended to other mez powers such as sleep (some of which like Salt Crystals, Frozen Aura, and Flash Freeze) do put the target in a "container".
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Stuns?| Actually that IS the idea but it was extended to other mez powers such as sleep (some of which like Salt Crystals, Frozen Aura, and Flash Freeze) do put the target in a "container". |
Flash? Blind? Char? Cinders? Dominate? Total Domination? EM Pulse?
Heck, Knockout Blow?
Containment doesn't mean "containment." It just means you are shooting at an enemy that's been partially disabled.
Remember, this is the game where someone can get hit by a truck and then you set them on fire and they are completely healed, and where you can microwave people back to life. I don't think an argument about "concept" really works here.
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Player concept and dev concept are 2 entirely different things. The devs tend to cling to their version of their concept even when mutiple players point out the non-sequitors and logical disconnects. States was always a good one to cling like a vise to his ideas (even the ridiculous). Posi does tend to listen to the player base (except about the market.) We don't really know yet which way War Witch will go.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Stuns?
Flash? Blind? Char? Cinders? Dominate? Total Domination? EM Pulse? Heck, Knockout Blow? Containment doesn't mean "containment." It just means you are shooting at an enemy that's been partially disabled. Remember, this is the game where someone can get hit by a truck and then you set them on fire and they are completely healed, and where you can microwave people back to life. I don't think an argument about "concept" really works here. |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Knockback is a mez effectively - it puts the character into a state where they can't do anything for a set period of time. The fact it also moves them around is incidental.
It's not outisde of concept either - you are generally more vulnerbale flailing helplessly through the air or having grvaity reversed on you, less likely to dodge a well-placed strike to a nerve point of vital organ or whatever. I've always thought this was the main idea behind Containment - its easier to hurt someone who can't fight back.
I just dont think it would really be that helpful to anyone. Any Controller who can KB targets can already hold or immobilise or stun them in an eye-blink, very possibly mass-immobilise them. There is no build where this would make a huge different to the play experience at all.
The biggest benefit I can think of would be Mind/FF opening with Repulsion Bomb (now reliably seting containment) and Terrify, which still isnt a great change.
Let us not forget Ice Controllers who would no longer rely on Frostbite for containment, which effectively negates one of their best controls.
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Look at it this way... Containment is essentially the ability to place our attacks for maximum effect when a target is not able to dodge properly due to being held or immobilized or whatever. It's probably hard to do that against someone who is bouncing around on the floor...
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Remember, this is the game where someone can get hit by a truck and then you set them on fire and they are completely healed, and where you can microwave people back to life. I don't think an argument about "concept" really works here.
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What?
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Originally Posted by ketch
Let us not forget Ice Controllers who would no longer rely on Frostbite for containment, which effectively negates one of their best controls.
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What Containment essentially is is a justification for a low damage Archetype to score extra damage. There is no grand concept afoot here.| Look at it this way... Containment is essentially the ability to place our attacks for maximum effect when a target is not able to dodge properly due to being held or immobilized or whatever. It's probably hard to do that against someone who is bouncing around on the floor... |
There are some very good arguments against Knockdown triggering Containment.
- It could be hard to implement
- It could be overpowered, because bosses tend to fall over easier than they are mezzed
- It could be irrelevant for some Control sets (IMO not a good argument though because some Control sets already benefit more from Containment than others)
But concept isn't one of them.
Again, just exploring, but a little surprised by the kneejerk reactions.
/em shakes head
It's a bad idea.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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My view of it, for what that is worth . . . |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
What IS the concept of Containment? Certainly not being "contained" in anything.
Just exploring. |
Hold, Sleep and Immob all keep the foe from moving, and thus unable to avoid the subsequent attack so the foe suffers extra damage. Stun is a bit more of a stretch, but it also involves the foe being unable to avoid the subsequent attack. Knockdown and even moreso, knockback involves the foe moving -- quite quickly in the case of knockback -- and either the foe is harder to hit or he has some ability to avoid the part of the attack to avoid the extra damage. Confuse also does not prevent the foe from avoiding the attack, even if it prevents a response, as the foe is confused into thinking that the attack came from his buddy.
But, all in all, it is an excuse to give more damage to controllers.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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As a response to DrMike,|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
What?
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
I just dont think it would really be that helpful to anyone. Any Controller who can KB targets can already hold or immobilise or stun them in an eye-blink, very possibly mass-immobilise them. There is no build where this would make a huge different to the play experience at all.
The biggest benefit I can think of would be Mind/FF opening with Repulsion Bomb (now reliably seting containment) and Terrify, which still isnt a great change. |
Really good point, ketch.
If anyone needs the extra damage, it's Ice Controllers.
If knockdown powers just neutralized AoE immobilizes, without adding containment, so that they ruined the AoE immobilizes for the players using them, that alone would be worth doing. 
Then I could spend a few years pretending I don't understand how it works while I keep using my knockdowns.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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I think the idea is that "hard" controls like Hold and Stun have long durations, during which you have plenty of time for Containment. Knockback is more momentary, and it's somewhat random about when it is in effect. It's even more random when you throw in ragdoll physics. Some sometimes you would end up overpowered when the odds were with you, and other times you'd find yourself almost never getting Containment from it.
And there are other effects that don't set Containment either, like Fear, Confuse, and Slow. And I don't think they should, for one thing, not all Controllers get access to them, and for another, they aren't really "hard" controls. They don't stop the foe from doing what it is doing, it just alters the AI in some way to make that harder. So again, it's not really total control, it's more random. (Confuse isn't random whether it takes effect, but you can't really control who he decides to attack. And Fear really is momentary)
I think ultimately to me, there are four effects that set Containment, and four that don't. That sounds pretty even. 
Thoughts?