New Dawn

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Well, on a large team I'm there's often a slim chance that there is a Controller or Defender, often negating any real need for Taunt.

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This often negates the need for a tanker too.

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Make the job easier for the Tanker (and the rest of team), definitely. Negate the 'need' for a Tanker? Not in my experience.

I've never been on a team where I didn't feel my Tankers have made a useful contribution. No matter how many heals, buffs, debuffs and control effects you have available, a Tanker is always handy.

Of course, my opinion is perhaps a little biased.

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I know this wasnt directed at me at all but when I say negate i mean make one less necessary, playstyle changes however, playing any other toon but my tank i feel a lot safer with a tanker. I do find mind controllers pretty tasty with there mass confusion. Slap that on and then what is the tank for? all the little things from different ATs can add up and making do without a tank can be done.

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Damaging taunt auras inflict damage which causes a mob to continue to have aggro on you after the actual taunt component has expired - if and only if you have inflicted the most damage to that mob. Since none of the damaging auras do much damage, this is rather unlikely in a teaming scenario.

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Sorry I don't buy that. Unless it has been changed since i6.
the reason I say this is because me and my fire-tank friend did a little experiment;
Could I pull agro with my katana/regen away from the tank if she had her fiery aura on. The answer was a resounding no.
I would strike. the mob would turn to me.
The aura would puff and the mob would, before hitting me, turn back to the tank. I find both fiery aura and mudputs to be extremely effective. Can't comment on the others.

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That is exactly the effect i see playing my firetanky and stonetanky without much in taunt durations, with my icetanker and invuln i havent seen it.

I have teamed with tankers without taunt and I am always having to be less dps with my blaster.

Secondary effects or primaries and secondaries of a tanker set plus playstyle can negate need for taunt in alot of circumstances as can dark defenders,rad defenders, trick archery defenders (ah hell they negate a need for the tank!). I'll always prefer a tanker on team and with taunt.

Some tanks may level to 50 with the same types of defenders on the team, missing game content, having some enemy to fear and yet rate themselves as tank, as for me I'll be rating the defender and the rest of the team. Some defenders are so good I even taunt +lvl AV's with my scrapper and sometimes I probably dont even need to do it.

I advise tankers to build for all situations as best they can. You out of anyone on team providing you are taking aggro will be -acc,-spd,-dam,-def,-end etc and should be able to play without saying things like "we NEED a kinetic defender" or "we NEED a dark defender" as having anyone in a team should do, but saying that I am "We dont want another tanker!" when i tank.

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Maybe I missed a meeting or something, but the Timebomb from the devices powerset seems to be fairly pointless to me.

You can't lay it whilst using invisibility, so unless someone ELSE can grant invis on you you can't lay it in the middle of a group and leg it. As it's a fixed 15 second timer before detonation, it's hard to see how you could lay it and then reliably get an opponent to come over and stand on/near it till it explodes. Even if you use caltrops/web grenade and a stopwatch, I dunno, to me it just seems way too fiddly to be of any real use. More so given that you can just use multiple Trip Mines to get a similar (but far more reliable) effect.

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too fiddly? cloak and superspeed, middle of group,time bomb, blam! shoot at whats left and have them chase you over your tripmines, too fiddly?

Also cloak and superspeed, middle of a group, timebomb, count ten seconds tripmine, double blam! pull anything left back to more tripmines.

Well dps wise (including actiontime and recharge) and risk v reward (AI predictability) i think its safe from nerfbat. It makes devices what it should be but these soloing techniques cant be used for every type of enemy.

As for AV's with a device blaster you can make a nice kickstart with stacked mines and timebomb and tanker/scrapper. Whether thats completely worth doing is a question as the team can pretty much do without the wait, but if you are waiting for people to arrive to mission lay the trap.

What many people dont know about trip mines is on missions like dreck before ED whilst a tanker is herding up 6-10 herds a devices blaster could be laying a stupid amount of mines, then disappear whilst the tanker herds the freaks beautifully on the mines. The blaster could come back and all the freaks would die. But the likes of nova or thunderous blast is way less work but the mines more aggro free. Autofire could cut down groups but possibly with loads of aggro
But now its a kind of meh thing to do as a tanker can now only herd so many, take so much and so now its quicker for the tanker to take on one group and the blaster to just open fire now.
What being away from mines is good for is providing you are not caught off guard and/or in an action time is it allows you to back off incase a stray comes along who could set all your mines off. Once hes left the mine field you go back to laying. Having to be close to your mines means you have the risks thats other blasters have with thunderous blasts etc - a shame i know.
If there was a change it was before i4 but for as long as i have known it has been the case.

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I've only been play a tanker for about a week but it seems that guantlet isn't very useful. Any foes you taunt with it get distracted very easily and go of, and most just ignore it compleatly.

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I think my personal gauntlet lasted 15 secs but it was a while ago. I tested it by turning my auras off, not using taunt and just hit something once whilst a energy blaster unleashed everything he had at it afterwards. I cant remember the level exactly of what they were but the higher the level you face the lower the duration will get, plus normally whatever enters my aura on missions will attack me whether i hit them or not. Personally i am happy with the gauntlet but i guess alot of people would agree on having more res etc.

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non-damaging component (I'm thinking Mud Pots here) are autohit, and thus more reliable for holding aggro than the damage auras that need to roll to-hit in order to taunt.

The best aggro-holding aura in the game is Chilling Embrace without question, with Mud Pots and Invincibility after that. Blazing Aura would be 4th on the list (as the largest damage aura).

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mudpots does damage. I'm sure. I see damage ticks in my mudpots.

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And if you read my message more carefully you'll note that I stated that Mud Pots has a Non-damaging *component* - which is a slow. At no point did I state that Mud Pots does no damage. Rather, it has a to-hit damaging component and (importantly) a seemingly auto-hit slow/taunt component. I have limited experience with Stone/ but Mud Pots certainly seems to work the way I've described and holds aggro very well over it's limited radius.

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i do apologise i read component as meaning power

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The one without any damage component is invincible

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Chilling Embrace inflicts no damage either.

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whilst you were writing this i clicked with what i put and changed that it was slip.

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I believe invincible to have faster ticks of taunt because anything within my invincible aura doesnt turn its back for a split anything whereas all other tanker auras can turn just before the next damage tick with taunt unslotted.

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This may well be a result of the relative level of enemies you were fighting - higher level enemies are taunted for less time on each "tick". Certainly, I have never noticed Chilling Embrace to be less effective than Invincibility in holding aggro - rather, as you note, the slow component seems to make it more effective if anything.

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I write fast go look at my tanks and make sure what i said was ok. I even write then post read then edit, most my posts are at 4am where its easier to get away with it. I am not sure it is down to level of enemies I was fighting because whilst playing my fire and stone against nothing out of the ordinary in level of enemies, enemies could turn in my aura which was nothing i had ever seen happen before on my invuln.

Post deleted by SHANNON

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non-damaging component (I'm thinking Mud Pots here) are autohit, and thus more reliable for holding aggro than the damage auras that need to roll to-hit in order to taunt.

The best aggro-holding aura in the game is Chilling Embrace without question, with Mud Pots and Invincibility after that. Blazing Aura would be 4th on the list (as the largest damage aura).

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mudpots does damage. I'm sure. I see damage ticks in my mudpots. The two without any damage component is invincible, and chilling embrace and i believe that invincible to have faster ticks of taunt. I believe invincible to have faster ticks of taunt because anything within my invincible aura doesnt turn its back for a split anything whereas all other tanker auras can turn just before the next damage tick with taunt unslotted. The tick time I have found with blazing aura and mudpots is about the same but the great thing about chilling embrace is the slow secondary so even if they were to about face they are too slow to do so.

not in reply:

Some groups are more spread than others and with ranged attacks awkward to herd. Combine that with team mates that attack a tad early, get within the perception range of straggler enemies or nearby groups you have a typical ingame scenario on outside maps. On an inside map 3 groups can be close enough for anyone of the three to see a member of team and a mass ambush can happen that no one can keep up with, well taunt can help to avoid all that.

Secondary effects of a tankers primaries and secondaries can combine with gauntlet to lessen the need for taunt but I still wouldnt make a tank without one it adds to my tanks independence to act like a tank to anything and not say things like "omg sapper! send the scrapper in" or "we need the blaster to pull here" or when someone says kite the AV for less damage I am not saying "I cant, I cant".

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If we enter a mob first or attack any of the enemies, the mob's attention will go to us anyway, so really we don't need taunt.

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Right up to the moment where someone else hits the mob with an AoE at which point most of the mob will turn away from the tank and start on the offending and distinctly more fragile toon.

Punchvoke only works on the enemy you're currently hitting.

My blaster alt is a PvP build, and has no AoEs so I generally aim for the tank's target. Unfortunately my controller isn't a PvP specialist and I have AoE holds which I daren't use unless there's a handy corner I can hide behind right after I fire it off. Unless the tank has some means of holding all the agro - be it taunt or fiery aura or whatnot.

I'd like to point out I'm lvling a tank myself and am planning on taking taunt at 22nd lvl.

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Punchvoke is not that good in spread groups, spread groups can end up being even more spread and splinter up due to team damage taunt. The aoe effect of a tankers aura isnt that big or of that great duration, which is why tankers that really like to keep hold of all the aggro hate knockbacks. Some groups are so spread and teams so pre-emptive (attack before tight herd up) I find myself moving towards the majority of numbers of enemy in close proximity to eachother to affect with my aura, using footstomp to affect whats just outside of my aura and taunt to affect whatever I miss, on pre-emptive teams I find myself having to attack less (unless footstomp) because I am constantly watching over the team for any aggro directed at them and using taunt. I dont think I am in the group must smash, I am in a group I must keep people from being hit.
Often I find that people effectively pass me by putting themselves closer to the enemies of another group, I am watching out for that too and that is also a reason i like to pull.

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I would be awkward and say that a tanks job is not to hold aggro but to keep aggro away from the rest of the team but that's another thread...

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If your not holding aggro someone else has it so your not keeping it from the rest of the team for me a tankers job is both just think of a tanker as a bodyguard.

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but ive noticed that with my single aoe attack that i got i can agro more then a tank with his taunt!!![glad i got dull pain]

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Your aoe attack can pull of a tanker whatevers outside his aura and whatevers not hit with taunt or enduring the taunt duration. Try using that aoe on a single target that the tank is constantly hitting nothing should come to you.
Scrapper taunt hits one target like snipe and like snipe can pull the rest of the group but the rest of the group remain untaunted despite coming for you.
Scrapper taunt is everybit as strong as tanker taunt on a single target and can pull off of a tanker. I dont suggest using it when a tanker is kiting an AV as it can cause a team wipe.

[ QUOTE ][*]Turn off the shields during travel. if you keep them on while youre doing an endurance draining travel power, you'll travel half the distance and most probably land in the middle of a mob where you could be one shotted due to the fall damage you get.

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lol firstly never let your endurance get "that" low, do that your okay

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Not directed at anyone specific but if you have "taunt" the USE IT. And if one of the squishies cries out for you to use it as their health plummets redward then don't ignore them and keep on scranking. That makes you a rubbish tank imho

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The higher level you face the lower the duration of taunt. Gauntlet has a lower duration than taunt I have found and has even less chance of hitting (especially when acc debuffed) gauntlet always ftw? imo no. The duration of taunt in your aura has a lower duration than taunt. Without taunt and people using knockbacks you are constantly needing to round up and use gauntlet costing endurance (that’s if you care about the rest of the team and have any end left). If the defender is dead we might all die and they can go down pretty fast (so i hear:P).
Sometimes in confined spaces (which if given a choice and opportunity I don’t get in as that’s not good tanking)If i am graphically blinded which is why i like people to target what hurts them so i can target taunt through them if need be(click on name and taunt).
Every toon of mine has to have atleast two "good" powers that can really save a team mate, even if it means having weaknesses.
Other people like defenders tend to kit themselves out mainly with primaries etc and leave themselves with poor self defence/soloability in order to help the team. I am only being fair in having taunt for extra aggro management, even if people think its overkill. Defenders can often be too busy concentrating on buffage to take in the whole scene and could run into trouble through no fault of their own (patrols) and they can die fairly quick.
At least taunt autohits, its guaranteed pve (unless fake nem with bubble up of course) and then i am like "dont make me chase you!"
Taunt costs no endurance which can help more towards team survivability and therefore my survivability even if i have no endurance (well i could be unstoppable for a reason and be sapped or just sapped). I think its good to keep people's toons alive when maybe just one person has made an easy mistake to make. But aggravating when I have told someone not to do something and they do it or when I dont expect a lvl 47 to make a mistake a lvl 6 would make.

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If you have an 8 man team on, say the Igneous missions in the Hollows, and a single tank... I'd certainly think twice (Three times even) about using it.

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Well cavern trials can be done with a single tank with no deaths needing to occur at all and a fight thru. Getting the team to cooperate with your sensible negotiating of the trial does matter as a complete idiot can’t always be saved. I would not dream of tanking cavern trial or positron without taunt neither. Some ambush points aren’t worth getting into and pulling and herding is part of being a tanker.

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It should also be noted the taunt does not always work, and from my experience many blasters, defenders, dont seem to understand that they can and do take the agro away from the tank with aoe then moan when they say so why didnt you taunt them.

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Granted non auto hit taunt can miss but autohit taunt never misses now either the duration of your taunt can run out or the bubbled up fake nem or av like nemesis rex or illusion mistress can be unaffected to name a few. But on the rest of the game 99.9999% of it taunt works!

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As for the one that didn't, many Tanks don't like to use it. There are other tools for Taunting in the Tank sets (PBAoE auras mainly, along with the 'punchvoke' effect of the attacks and Gauntlet) and some Tanks find that enough. Not saying I agree (Far from it, I personally wouldn't consider building a Tank without it), but some people certainly do.

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It wont always be enough attacks can be slowed, endurance can run out and accuracy can be debuffed and like I said duration time of gauntlet aint great and the higher level you face the weaker it gets. Not having taunt is creating a limitation in doing your job as a tanker imo.

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I went through 40 lvls with a fire tank who didn't use taunt. Didn't need it, her fiery aura was more than enough.
I think I'm irked for two reasons, the first being completely ignored by the offending tank when I tried to explain that if he taunted I could lock down most of the mob.
The second being watching the team fragment into little groups and have individual battles. At one point I was left with 2 bosses and an LT all to myself whilst the tanks messed about with some minions.

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In a panic situation taunt decently slotted can correct that all enemies eyes will be on the tanker and hopefully lack of cones and aoes permitting any healing AT can simply worry about the tanker. As a tanker its not good to create this situation, I have seen tankers walk into large rooms so obviously for all to see and bring half of what they cant handle with them.

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Yeah, at level 16 I wouldn't consider taking taunt, and if I had it would only use it if I was fully buffed by a defender (preferably 2).

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Not trying to be bigheaded or anything I have taken taunt at lvl 4 wet ice at 6 followed by chilling embrace at lvl 8 putting myself on the line as much as possible and trying to remain standing is the job. The best tankers should make themselves “the” most likely to go down first imo whilst the team do everything they can to save them. However with reality and inexperience good outcomes cant always be had and few people care to stop and rethink how things could of gone better. A tanker going down is and should be a rare sight and taking one for a normally good team is not a bad thing. I die, good team but bad tanking? or bad team with good tanking ? the pendulum does swing for everyone.

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There is also the issue that prior to 22, assuming you want a travel power and stamina and to pick up a single extra attack ( the level 4 one ) you have only 5 choices left. With Ice, Inv and Stone these pretty much have to be from your primary or you are compromising on defence. Only Fire actually has a real choice ( whether to take consume, burn, taunt or a third attack ).

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Yeah it’s a question of priorites for most tanks other than fire really I got my first travel power at level 30 on my invuln, now its respec’d in earlier but I have all that early stuff behind me anyway.

My must must haves are

Inv : Temporary Invulnerability , Dull Pain, Unyielding, Invincibility, Unstoppable
Fire : Fire Shield, Healing Flames, Plasma Shield, Blazing Aura, RotP
Ice : Frozen Armor, Chilling Embrace, Wet Ice, Hoarfrost, Glacial Armor, Hibernate
Stone : Rock Armor, Stone Skin, Earth's Embrace, Mud pots, Rooted, Crystal Armor, Brimstone Armor, Granite.

But I would not miss a primary anyway.

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If they take aggro away from you CE is nexty to useless cos the foes are already headed towards the squishy, to grab aggro away from squshy nothing can be compared to taunt.
I rolled a new tanker, an ice one, and I got Taunt at lvl 8(before the patch that switched the 3rd attack and taunt)and I've done fine up till now(lvl 21)without DOs and without SOs, simply because if you're taunting them, the buffer/debuffer/healer/whatever can focus on the foes around you or focus on healing you, hence more safety for all the team.

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Me and jiaozy did a nem mission together. Unkown to him. I was playing my blaster now he would herd up the nems into a nice tight bunch around him and taunt the furthest away, those just outside of his aura and I positioned myself to gain maximum coneage with my attacks Full Auto, Flamethrower and Buckshot. Now as I attacked 2 things can happen as my stealth unsuppresses; the snipers of other groups see me or one or two leaves the herd and comes to give me the smack down. I was safe with him as he only had to taunt my target (I target what comes for me to help) and “he never had to lose his herd”. With other tanks it could have been a question of do they have a ranged attack or not, and will it miss. The faster aggro is off me the sooner I get back to arresting and the less dead I am. Also with most other tanks i would of probably quit team. I could of easily of died even with jiaozy as with any tank had i not had the experience to know where to stand and when to attack. He was being a good tank and if i was complete idiot i would of been completely unsaveable which is why i dont even bother saving complete idiots.

[ QUOTE ][*]AoE's. As much as I'd like to be able to save you, if I'm tanking AoE capable mobs, and you stand next to me, you WILL get hurt. Don't tell me I'm not doing my job if you're in AoE radius of me while I'm working, and you plant.

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This is a common problem i feel. You should never hide behind a tanker or be next to one or you will get coned/aoed with everything.

[ QUOTE ][*]Herding. Sometimes the mobs don't follow you when you aggro them, through whatever means, but stay at range and shoot you from afar. Don't complain when I haven't been able to corral a bunch of attackers who are determined to stay at range into a nice neat nova-able group. The prime example being the Cabal, but there are others.

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Without something to get behind they wont group up near enough and unless you move away and unless they are still feeling the taunt they will follow you. Without positions to block yourself the best you can do is try to be the only one you are attacking.

[ QUOTE ][*]Malta. I am an Inv Tank. A solid hit from a sapper or two will toggle drop me. At that point I am jam, and useless as a tank. Accusing me of cowardice becuase I will not run into a mob which has more than one sapper without some kind of backup with me to take them out is just plain silly.

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Click unstoppable and wade on in! you may lose end but you only have to taunt! If you have it.


[ QUOTE ][*]Psi. Unless I am a stone tank, I have problems with Psi Damage. Do not expect me to be able to fend for myself properly against anything that has a massive psi-damage component.[*]Psi.

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Yeah!


All in all though some tanker melee sets do have other secondaries that make having taunt less of a necessity and a playstyle using the aura alone can be adopted but to cover the whole game and be a jack of all trades I wouldn’t make a tank without it.

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I played a lvl 30 ice/ice tank - (wont play again until scaling defence comes into play).

On up to 6 man teams, i could hold 90-100% of ALL aggro from team (a few exceptions - like the cabal). Blasters would be gleefully firing off snipes, never getting hit once, Bubblers would only bubble me, AoE going round off around all the densely packed mobs all falling over on my ice slide.

I had taunt + chilling embrace. Ice tanks truly are marvellous at holding aggro. Even if mobs do decide to run from the largest AoE auuto taunt, they are slowed and falling on ice slide when doing it.

Now granted, my build was for maximum protection - no offense at all, but ive never ever seen teams like that, when all other toons just never ever got ATTACKED let alone hit. That kinda tanking is a dying art, mainly cos of ED, but also cos tanks these days dont seem to get it... the more aggro they get the better the team. Ive met a few good tanks, but IMO nothing holds aggro like ice tanks.

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All tanks (built and played right) are capable of holding a certain number 16/17 -19 The problem is no matter how often you try to tell teams not to attack until you have consolidated aggro someone moves out front and tries to herd the whole mission(exaggerating obviously). Blasters chance a pull, controllers lay on controls as the enemy is running to you, scrappers play like scrankers and sometimes defenders play like 3rd rate why bother blasters.
Half the trouble is with people on the team. I have to ask myself whose side are they on? Because with any tanker you can make it so nobody else needs healing and its ideal if the defender only has to worry about you.

Taunt is an anti ambush tool and there to grab what isnt in your aura. Taunt hits 5 but more come running to you. As often as i try to explain the dont attack until they are actually in my aura it falls on deaf ears. Which is why people who continue initiating the battles sometimes gets watched by me with my aura turned off, "you pull it, you tank it".

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Incidentally, am I the only Stone tank out there slotting for Slow? It still seems a rather good effect to me.

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I slot 2 end, 1 slow, 3 taunt. it's always done a good job for me.

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3 taunt respect!

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Oh, one more thing - if you're Ice/Ice, you can drop an Ice Patch right before hibernating, and then even if your Taunt runs out, the mobs won't be going anywhere.

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i got an ice/ice with taunt slotted rather excessively cos i slow them and want them to remember me by the time they get to my herdpoint (ok if they get there). i also figured this would work well with hibernate. But what i havent even seen yet and prolly wont get to try out for a long while is frozen aura so i am just wondering how you see that as being effective apart from when soloing?

I must admit i thought it a great idea for a toon going from completely hard to completely soft.

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The only decent damage I have is mines/teleport and if they nerf that I'll definately **** off.

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With the risk versus reward factor imo it shouldnt be. There is a long action time to laying a mine, a fair recharge to the tripmine power and higher chance in the mine not being used. In teams it is often quicker not to bother with the power at all and no one is going around saying the AR/DEV blaster is a godlike pvp build. "Whilst laying his mines he was mullered by all the villains on the map". My mates stalker for one went completely undetected.

As for ignite i thought it was a bit of an unedgy power but on test using it in combination with webgrenade i think its a wicked power, must be great for pvp on any squishie you can immobilise.

i love my AR i am tempted to lose fitness pool altogether as my endurance only drops when i leave superjump on and fully kit my toon out with all the primaries and secondaries. The damage output aint great and the slash and lethal damagetypes widely resisted, long action times that commit you to a move but has good recharge capabilities.

i use follow and as i run up to them i slip down a hole into another mob, only in caves though. I find sb most unwelcomeable if there is somewhere to fall.

The backstory of all my toons are intertwined. One bio of one toon leads to the bio of another i'd have to unite them into one text and polish it off a bit.

my battle drones are huey,duey and luey
protector bots donald and daisy
and my assault bot is to be mickey

i dont know where i got those names from

are you phaseshifting still?

i put 3 defense slots in my empath slapped it on one of my fave firetanker mates, told team to make it so he is only one i need to heal, sent him in against +2 clockwork king spammed fort on him as soon as it recharged omg easy healing! +2 clockwork king was such a wuss!

i have seen that post i also have seen a post about all slash and lethal sets being a bit naff pve wise in comparison to other damage types due to what villains mainly resist. slash and lethal i believe is the most commonly resisted damage type.

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Fire is the best for maintaining agro without resorting to taunt, I really dont know where people find space for taunt these days

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taunt is a selfless power. i dont know why villainous brutes would care to take it. other than to build up extra fury. or maybe if they could of stopped their partners in crime from faceplanting they wouldnt of got faceplanted later themselves. Who knows! as a villain - who cares! i'll take it myself for pvp purposes for sure.

all the times my claw/sr has taken down a regen in a duel has been because i eluded alot and they didnt watch their endurance.