New Dawn

Ok thats probably the one to miss if ya had to pick one, i dont know if it was anybetter whether the whole set would be overbalanced overall but there is always that one power that you can pass on with little worries.

I basically didnt like the idea of a stalker but i am compelled to have atleast one of each AT to build up an idea of how all ATs can team with eachother so that with my more favoured ATs id understand other peoples toons more.

But I am finding something strangely and worryingly appealing about my stalker so i guess it was just the nature and actions of other peoples stalkers in pvp zones that put me off.

Whats the -end like on poisons poison trap?

Team should ideally be perception range of enemy behind herdpoint. Full cornered walls are better than columns as columns can split foes. People who may complain about the slowness of the tactic maybe the people who you keep having to tell to stay back thus slowing you down and everyone else and compromising you through extended fight duration so kick them .

Tight packed mobs means more are likely to be in aoe debuff zone (+ survivability and +team effectiveness) and be damaged or secondary effected by aoes and pbaoes and even the thinnest of cones can be more effective all in an area of taunt control producing an efficient and safer manner to arrest. (My trick archer often sees many scattered mobs and with the size of her debuff zones..thats not good)

People who use kbs to spread groups reduce the effectiveness of other peoples powers get them to kb to walls or objects and offer them range to do so. Controllers that aoe immob groups before they arrive at herdpoint are making the team less effective and have too much faith in how much taunt control you may of given and imo still need to learn stuff as they may have possibly just compromised team but usually themselves.

Use, if you have one. a multihit as a signal for ready to the team like footstomp as its a great gauntlet opener and provides extra consolidation. Taunt furthest away from you to keep mobs grouped as not all maybe able to be effected by your aura.

Direct cone attacks away from team as much as possible. Your a tank, no point in tanking or being super duperly armoured if you being hit as much or less as the team is, ideally the team dont really get hit at all and if they are going to get hit anyway then whats the point in you being there again?

To taunt and hide is faster herding than run in, run back and hide, range beats travel any day of the week unless you want more mobs then do a bit off both, sometimes a presence pull on some and a taunt on others is ample. But fast and simple is best, have a herdpoint before you herd, let people know it so they dont accidentally pass it and get aggro and mess up the whole point of herding. The more herd time you make then the less survivalibility you may have.

Running in pulling forward and hiding can be dangerous for you (perhaps an unexpected group around blind corner) and if you are due to that type of mob, depending on a defender, then depending on the type of defender, you may become a blocked target and/or it could be possibly dangerous for other members if they have to pass foes just to support you or be able to target main group around you or they could be late getting to the group around you.

Wherever your herdpoints are offer range as enemies aoe and pbaoe etc on you hopefully and if people have no choice but to be too close then thats not good.

All ranged attackers will herd to you if you have a good blockage point.

Thats my addition to your corner pull strategy, some may find it useful some may not but be aware of those that can cause slow effects on run speed on this. With new groups it pays to respect the enemy and be progressive.

Having foes in melee of you can increase your survivability no matter what type of tanker you are especially invulns though.

Not much for now on corner pulls cos i am mid game and so this is a quickie.

Edited extra:

Blaster fly by pulls and intercepts arent as good as a defenders debuff toggle fly by pull and intercepts but i prefer my tanks pulling as its more guaranteeable that either wont get aoe'd from being at herdpoint or hit pulling back to team but a whole load of effective mixes can be made up but the key thing is the "fly by" whereby you apply an effect after you have passed a corner to avoid alphas altogether.

http://www.nofuture.org.uk/cox/

and

http://sherksilver.coldfront.net/

for pve purposes you only need 45% to get critters to 5% tohit floor but there are def debuffs you may wish to allow for and you may want as much as poss for pvp purposes.

I think Mighty has said it all for me, it helps to not have to stop between doing groups on the run up before an AV who has arrows down as domination drops, its nice to have domination ready and arrows down. As far as GMs go i have never built up domination prior to one so i am more of an aggro magnet than controller. Soloing at times on certain missions i am thinking "hang on this is better than my brute" in the way my dom deals with EBs especially. i was holding +2 to me AVs on rsf today with my corrupters holds so i am like rar whatll it be like when my dom gets here.

I get both points, what lexce is saying and you syn, with lexce method its isnt a spread team its just the taunter(s) seperate from team i am guessing with the rest of the team altogether which is sometimes how i do things as my tankies especially with lusca. I'll get hit by 3 legs if necessary so that the teams dont get hit at all but with the closeness that some Heroes might be brought to (heavy taunt control, use of environment and aoe immobs) they can share a truck load of aoe debuffs unlike those lusca legs.

I wouldnt rule anyones method out for possibilities as i see potential in them but not with any given team and what matters most is completion (not fun ) so on that ya logically choose the right strategy.

The lowest end costing ranged attack (so not snipe) i think may make the best pulls, i dont know if anyone else has tried it, i could be talking balls but i am suspicious of it. My sonic doesnt have a snipe and i was thinking of turning shriek into one till i saw its end use but something like neutrino bolt would be best to test it with i dunno. But in order to keep aggro down it be nice for me to find out, just dont shoot the one in the middle.

My brute isnt high enough to try lexce's strategy but with the amount of rads in the vg i think i could do ok and i dont know anyother brutes that taunt.

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Might be a good idea. I don't have any plans for Caltrops either... hm.. might throw Acrobatics out too.

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Caltrops for me have been amazing, so much damage mitigation when i need it or others need it, so much time bought. I was wondering why i went /ninja thinking about /sr with aid self until i picked up caltrops at 24.

A power may be good for one and bad for another down to team dynamics or the sense of purpose. Plus if i played toons that were all the same and did things the same way or went unchallenged in anyway I'd be bored ****less. Its bad enough seeing same team strategies wherever ya go.

I like the ".." part of that hammerfall its just waiting for someone to list the eps of any toggle you can get as a brute and point out that in the beginning most people dont have stamina and so end recovery is bad and show the maths that its the attack chain thats heavy and again MWV down to the primaries you choose and how you slot in those early levels.

I seen tanks get overwhelmed because of stormies using gale to push mobs from 1 group 40ft into more mobs of another group. In-mission griefing i call it, i hope thats not you

Yep hecticness is great on villains for me, i dont expect people to be supportive of eachother or care about eachother that much cos they are evil and if anyone has a grudge against me and thinks "nah she isnt worth saving!" i am cool with that!.

On heroes i feel i have to try and be heroic. Heroes plan to do a job with minimal casualties their side. They look out for eachother because they care about eachother. Either way things are doable. People sometimes cooperate if a teamwipe happens but for me if someone goes down, its a wake up call to plan. In fact i'd much rather look at everyone in team and plan the first mob as though we already had a teamwipe and upon success play to that plan at speed (although i do like to chat) and avoid any casualties.

But with most players i dont see that. In pugs especially people will run in mash keys, play dead, get up run in, mash keys, play dead, and after a while someone leaves cos of the debt and someone else pipes up and says "i'll get my so and so which is about 3 levels higher" or someone says "it cant be done". Nobody looks at eachother and says "well how can we try and do this" and rise to the challenge as a team. Sometimes you even got someone saying "heal pls" to a sonic defender. I have been on so many pugs that have people not functioning with eachother well that it bores me now. Same old mistakes being made by different people that compromise eachother, different day, different team.
Some sg teams of so called good sgs dont vary much. Only thing that matters is prestige being earnt, inf and xp. The whole "doesnt matter who plants" is conceptually disagreeable with me and to run thru missions at high speed with a few casualties is challengeless but then again it also is once you have your perfect drill. The drill can change with different make ups. Thinking about it this game can be made from too easy to too hard for any toon with any build as it just comes down to team.

Likeminded people goto likeminded people and what everyone appreciates differs.

This is the longest debate i ever had, too long for me so i am gonna go for a long time from these boards cept to check on my stormie build.

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Thats like saying to me "screw your concept build and accept a build of my making".

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I'm not trying to force a build down your throat, frankly that would be rude and unneccesary.

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You were saying that if my tank is squishie i must be a bad tank. That is not the case. When people ask for suggestions on a build i give one. I may suggest tp self over superspeed for a stonetank but i do not say that they will be a bad tank. Fact is on teams the dynamics are either good or they are not. People are either supportive and cautious enough for eachother or they arent, sometimes you just cant save people from themselves. Many will stand in the wrong place at the wrong time when there is no reason to be there. The whole point of tanking is to get hit instead of others. I do that thanks, my first debt badge on my invuln was 41 and after 1100 hours she is maybe halfway towards the last one. I have tanked since live and only have to fear poor team dynamics and i only fear them ecause i hate other people getting debt. I get very very jealous of peoples healthbars moving and i like to consolidate aggro before anyone starts. My other tanks have yet to get a debt badge and at the current rate are doing better than what my invuln did but experience helps but anyway peoples power choices are their own i just look at the slots.

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You seem to value "concept" over "extreme performance". Fair enough.

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Extreme performance is no one elses healthbars moving. It
takes the whole team for that.

My build is all primaries and its enough for game content. As levels get higher they dont scale up that much. I like to play at whatever speed is necessary for me to try and ensure the safety of the team. Alot of people will attack a group no sooner as i have run into them let alone when i say ready. The type of player i am is one that when RV came out on test spent time playing with the AVs with various defenders or without (Filth was running around with his dominator every night at the time). Logging damage taken checking for range etc working out the best place for people to be standing so they dont get coned. How far back such and such may need to be so they dont get aoe'd. It put a range slot in my empaths build! I dont like to just run in and smack things. Sometimes the way to mitigate damage is just by not being in a certain area. On board games if ya ever played them (i havent) but ya get models and someone with a model may go to use a cone attack and they have to put a template down. Now some of the opponents models will be effected and some wont and some would be out of reach from the attack despite being in that direction. Some attacks are greater than others in area and damage. As a tanker this is what i take into consideration. When tanking AVs people dont have to get hit. There are so many options you can take and decisions you can make. I like being David to Goliath.

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I also did not quote multiple parts of your replies which is often percieved as a slightly offensive attempt to "rip the parent post to shreds".

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We dont know eachother. I quote just to show you and save you from looking the points i refer too. You could be gone 2 days and come back and may have to look at what i am trying to reply to whereas i just put it there so ya dont have to. In what ya said about aid self, it wasnt wrong but i didnt think i was being that ambiguous for you to misintepret that what i was saying, i was agreeing with you. Just the more foes around you the more chance of someone hitting in the interrupt time as its not synchronised swimming. of course def is important and as i said i'd have to have lots of def or an aoe secondary effect to but time. Without knowing the guys build i couldnt make a conclusive suggestion. The end bar is a second lifebar holding aid self down is something i havent ever done.

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Now if you genuinely feel harrassed by any of my posts then I'm sorry that you feel that way because it wasn't my intention. However I stand by every one of the facts I have given on defence and resistance stats.

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I can promise you that i can obtain these figures. I dont always fly back and forth to them. Sometimes i base things on memory and get a bit mixed up. It isnt hard to go thru post and double check what people say and come back with figures.

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It is firmly my view on tanking that you should not need to rely on outside buffs for the majority of your play. It is very risky and inherently makes your survivability unreliable, therefore I will not ever play a "team tanker" if I possess weak damage mitigation.

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I dont like to see defenders not in teams, i dont like to see any person with an AT ignored in what they can do. I play a team tanker and do fine. I just need to manage the direction of attacks, the amount of damage i have to bear against AVs can be mitigated through taunt. Ranged attacks are so much weaker than melee and if an AV is perma taunted then he cant attack anyone else which is good. If i am standing with the team and the AV aoes or cones he hits me and he hits the team. Through dynamics survivability can come, i dont see the point of a well built tank who can take it all with a defeated team. Different defenders work in different ways and most people go "we need a kin or get a rad" and whilst they are significantly better for dropping an AV, in terms of survivability versus the AV or in missions in general they dont have to be.

Here is where you possibly go for information.

http://www.nofuture.org.uk/cox/
http://www.nofuture.org.uk/coh/powers/categories.php
http://www.vidiotmaps.com/

Iakona and Arcanavilles posts are very helpful.

If you look here:

http://www.nofuture.org.uk/coh/power...s/Lord_Recluse

It gives his powers etc. When i looked there i thought thank heavens it didnt have how much damage he does with each attack as then my efforts would be a complete waste of time but it has info on stuff i couldnt possibly of found out for myself. I spend time on test playing with AVs getting hit to work them out find alternative methods to the norm. When people ask for a buff to this and that and get a reply back "we are not going to change that". I wonder why they wont change it and look for answers. It could be a complete waste of time but sometimes research is.

The research of people can be useful and harmful imo. Peoples builds get better which is good but some of the mysteriousness and challenge is lost. Part of the enjoyment can come from the learning curve. When the game becomes no longer challenging we get bored and leave. I like the official guide above all others and wont flatter myself by ever writing one.

If i am the only one getting hit then in terms of survivability the defenders are doing me a favour, i like to need them, i like to need everyone. I could go up in levels with some teams anyway but my taunt gets weaker in duration despite the 6 slots!

I am starting to like you again Maelwys.

I have had similar experiences to all of you. Itll be nice and i dont know if its already meant to be there but to have a streakbreaker on it so the chance of not lighting cant keep on going.

Also the problem with pets is not good depending on how close you are to next group. As a defender i dont call the shots on where fights take place. Half the time i dont even get a chance to throw in flash arrow for a pseudo weave power which i think the -per is great anyway as it should lower range.

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I have been reading this whole thread and now I am seriously wondering what this fuss is all about. I don´t think anyone would disagree that both Interrupt Duration and Endurance Reduction are valid slotting options for Aid Self.
And I think all of us know that it depends on the specific toon in question if you get more mileage from the former or the latter.
So, in my opinion, if a tanker is rarely interrupted because he has significant defense and/or some means to buy him the needed time window (AoE knockdown or disorient would spring to mind) he is better off with EndRdx as it helps regardless of being interrupted or not.
However, as soon as a tanker finds himself interrupted regularly during the 1 second interrupt time, things get really complicated mathematically speaking (as there are some unknown variables regarding available "time buying powers" and playstyle). In some cases Interrupt Duration might be better, in other cases Endurance Reduction might still be on top and there might even be some cases where Aid Self will add no survivability at all, because it turns out to be a huge waste of time and endurance (and slots).

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Thats good to me.

Without seeing the guys build i have made no suggestions at what is best. I have aid self and never held it down, it gets interrupted and i try again at a seemably more opportune moment. The end bar is my second life bar.

The interrupt on trip and timebomb is way worse than aid self giving one person chance to use 3 attacks and interrupt me. I think its about 4 secs. 1 second with 4 foes around me and 1 of them has a good chance compared to 1 foe. 0.5 sec and 8 foes around me and one of them has a really good chance compared to one foe. So if ya get me the more foes around ya the more ya may need interrupts. As the chance to be interrupted is increased.

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I was under the impression that Tankers are not a buff class.
They shouldn't have to do anything for defenders other than protect them from aggro

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Thats it too many dont protect defenders from aggro. My trick archer is better off with herders and what do i get in teams alot of the time a bunch of solo artists seeing to themselves or aggro dispersed all over the place.

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Probably not Hammer, and that's sad for a PvE tanker who claims to know what's best for their team.

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If my team dont get hit isnt that good?

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Firetanks get res to toxic from healing flames (its not as good), they have more health points and part of their toughness lies in their offensiveness (-fight duration, which is mitigation, if its down its down). They are conceptually meant to drop and rise again and make up more xp/time to balance the debt.


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Ah. That's your problem right there.

I was worried that you'd gone off the deep end when in fact you believe that tanks are meant to die.
That would certainly explain most of what you've said in this thread and the neighbouring "Aid Self" one.

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Tanks arent meant to be immortal and stop insinuating stuff and adding words that arent there!

Conceptually phoenixes are reborn after they die. Its great for reherding after defeat other tanks have to wait for a res, but ressing in front of an AV say is a dangerous thing to do as you can be insta dropped. i dont like debt badges on my other tanks but those debt badges have phoenixes on them. I will damn well get Exalted now. I'd still level as fast as my other tanks.

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The large bulk of the player base has this attitude “if i cant do it, no one can!” which is balls. What people dont say before making such remarks is “how?”. For me those kind of people dont deserve to know. Your one of them people.

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Unless I'm missing something... "How? If I can't do it, no one can!" doesn't make sense.

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Putting such an emphasis on tough and weave as a necessity to keep the team safe, it aint.

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Good Tanker = Survivability + Aggro Management.
You claim to know this, yet also claim that others should take care of the "survivability" part for you.

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Tanks arent supposed to be immortal and not all people are in perma granite making them being defeated less likely.

The most sickening sight i have seen in my time in game is a granite tanker standing in respec mission with the rest of the team of to hosp. He basically saw to his survivability and did little in the way of taunt control. A firetanker would of been so much better, he may of needed support but atleast it would of been him and just him that needed it.

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Max out your survivability, ramp up your aggro control and then take any buffs as icing on the cake. When a defender doesn't need to spend all their time buffing and healing your squishy behind, they can spend time increasing the damage output of the team instead.

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Thats like saying to me "screw your concept build and accept a build of my making".

I dont need too, never had. What defenders offer is good enough. If i added all that then i could have all foes hitting me and a defender who made their defender to play as one being a blaster. When i log on as one of my defenders i want to play as one. When tanks tank they can get all the aggro if i am not a necessity i will go find another team who needs me more. Some people appreciate being needed and seen as being effective. Stone tanks who say "get a kin" so they can be sb'd are no different to me at all. Except i dont say "we need a ... " I'll have anyone who wants to join. If i had to be specific i'd leave the game.

In teams too many defenders are ignored in terms of what they can offer and how they can offer it. They made a toon slotted their primaries and if the team doesnt need to make use of them, the team will play how they like and they wont really get to play as that defender. Journey is important. I point blank refuse to not be challenged into doing that and when someone comes into the team as a defender they'd be needed as one otherwise they may as well of made a blaster.

If an empath didnt have to heal me or buff me he mightnt have to do that to anyone and besides it isnt like i need a healbot as it is. With other defenders i could max out def only for what? whats that? all the tohit is floored by the defender? if your regularly teamed with one of anytype then picking certain extra powers can be a waste.

I like teams whereby everyone is a keyplayer, i get more joy out of the supporting unlike the many that are playing for the "kills". My scrappers have confront and has much greater moments keeping damage of a team against an AV or pulling a foe of someone who is in the red than anything else. Incase of heals not managing to keep up with damage on the team its a good idea to pull back bring the attacks away from the team to buy time.

First day of ED i went and done a 52 Neuron mission with no defeats with a team that worked well together. It was a great team, 99% of the time only i got hit.

With the innuendos of this post and other posts i feel harrassed i think you better drop it and start on someone else. Well no leave everyone alone!

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You can successfully use Aid Self in between the ticks of one DOT without using any interrupt enhancements.

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yes different powers have different tick rates tho so it all depends on that and your level of interrupt.

My knowledge of interrupts come from trip mines and timebomb go into a pvp match with me and i explain to you about the chance of being interrupted and uninterrupted that has nothing to do with the calculation within aid self.

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When you're interrupted you do NOT need to wait for it to come back up before you use it again.

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I wait for a likely opening between attacks, i have never hammered on it and am aware that you can do this, i just never thought anyone would. Under some DoTs or heavy fire the maximum of half a sec interrupt may not be enough or you could be just plain unlucky hence holding it down will end drain you.

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Your other quotes and comments directed at me have either been answered already or are irrelevant to the thread, so I won't attempt to answer them directly (judging from past experiences this might result in a counterpost so long that it causes the server to crash).

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Thats what i was finding from you, we are not necessarily saying anything different just interpreting things differently.

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If you get your mitigation from the team and a certain defender isn't available, how do you plan on tanking?

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By not using the "look at me i can do this" approach *runs into mob* at a junction where behind a blindspot are more mobs.

I have done the whole atta with a team saying to them "i will take the damage and so you wont need the insps you have for survivability providing we do things tactfully" we had no controller or defender and at such low levels there isnt all that in damage mitigation that a team can provide or i can for that matter. Well as it happens no one got defeated.

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Will there **always** be a support AT to save you, or would you be better off increasing your survivability?

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I actually find teams supporting eachother a thrill, teams that run ragged thru a mission of anything goes i dont enjoy, the level of survivability drops, the skill involved is all anout self, i have seen it all to often and it bores me. I have had fight pool and steamed missions very well to much of the enjoyment of people who base everything on the rate of xp. However there is a bit of roleplay in me and i dont see xp (although will prefer unyielding for best xp/time) but for me its not the levelling, powerchoices, any look at me show off moments its the playing a hero and heroes have weaknesses and not all weaknesses can be helped which is why support shouldnt be something to be ashamed of, support should be loved imo.

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This is what you have to weigh up. Are you responsible for your own aggro and survivability or do you want to always have to sponge off others, even when those others might not have much to give you?

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In a team we are responsible to eachother, we have eachother to blame, some people compromise people (lose fire imp chasing one enemy into another group that we wouldnt handle methods) and i dont like that. You could say i compromise people if i drop, if i am about to drop i often use the words "bad pull tactically retreat". I actually dont like seeing anyone get defeated it pains me deeply and those that know me know it.

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This topic is about Aid Self. When taken on a defence-based tank, Aid Self will greatly increase self-reliance.

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It does, what i am saying is you dont need it, sometimes it can act against you, doing other things could of been better and whatever concept you have doesnt mean failure.
I really dont like fight pool on my tanks i will take it when i run out of ideas. My firetank dont have it yet, she has acrobatics, i could of gone hover to be conceptual but i really couldnt be bothered with the problems associated with it. My firetank is fire/fire and spends way less time in groups than my others. I had each tanker on test same level and went to Dark Astoria and soloed mobs with each one. The hardest was the firetank, i kept respecin her in different ways and found offense to be abit of a babe, tactics needed to be slightly different with each tank.

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I think that the fact that so many tankers take it speaks for itself... team buffs are often unreliable.

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The way tanks often tank do little to help defenders, a tanker should provide the most easiest set up for a defender and many dont. Taking self buffs discourages them to need to. I wont do that, i like importance of other players and what they do. The defender is more to do with the player behind it as with all other toons and you must surely agree that sometimes its the player behind the build than the fotm build in pvp. I know very good ones. I talk from a point of whats potentially achieveable and have with some teams proven it. I like potential and i put alot of faith in people having decent builds and vigilance no matter how often i find its not the case.

Brawl is just smash and if you cant take brawl then your several levels too low as your blaster and its hardly worth a mention. Others have so little of it its not worth me double checking.

Firetanks get res to toxic from healing flames (its not as good), they have more health points and part of their toughness lies in their offensiveness (-fight duration, which is mitigation, if its down its down). They are conceptually meant to drop and rise again and make up more xp/time to balance the debt.

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they simply do not have that mitigation (though their aggro control is better when using Guantlet

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i like this, good aggro control frees up team to do what they do in terms of support.

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Damage mitigation can only “not be helped” if you gimp your build by not taking pains to increase your own survivability. If you constantly rely on team buffs to survive you are being detrimental to team performance and will struggle when those buffs are not available.

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I dont get the need for this as not all teams need a tanker, even 8 man ones with an AV sitting in the mission. The constant relying on team buffs doesnt always apply, have you tried basic builds? Many people level on them and there is not just one way of going about things.

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If you get your mitigation from the team and a sonic defender isn't available, how do you plan on absorbing those alpha strikes? You take your armor and run it, then use self-heals after taking a beating to get your green bar looking healthy again.

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Like i always do, i have only ever teamed with a sonic once and dropped by an alpha once on a firetank. Alphas (hit by whole group at once) dont need to happen. You can dissipate what comes to you and all the secondary effects in peoples attacks provide some survivability. The more damage dealers the less of a fight duration. The more controllers the more containment. The more secondary effects the less effective mobs are. At the very least if no one else is getting hit because i am as a tanker they can pass me their insps or scrappers can pull certain elements that i have nothing powerchoice wise that could of guaranteed protection from. Teams are meant to support eachother and not be a bunch of individuals randomly clicking and hoping. If your not supporting eachother its not really a team. You cant be in a team without getting some support.

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What happens if you try to take on a spawn that's too big for you to handle the alpha from as a Fire tanker?
Will there always be a controller to save your not-so-thick hide, or would you be better off running Tough for 25% more resistance and taking nearly half the damage you'd otherwise take?

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Thats happened once, once again alphas dont have to happen, the once could of been avoided had i pulled to a blocked target giving me less damage within a timespan to which i would of had a chance to use my heal. Once the team come into play all sorts of dissipating effects happen. As for AVs a firetanker i know with an 8 man team 1 defender managed a +3 babbage with no defeats. They were my tactics with a team that followed it through well especially and most importantly on timing. We had 3 of them in a row, the first wasnt perfect but the 2nd and 3rd was good enough.

The large bulk of the player base has this attitude “if i cant do it, no one can!” which is balls. What people dont say before making such remarks is “how?”. For me those kind of people dont deserve to know. Your one of them people.

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I know what I can handle in terms of mob type/size/level and I don't look to the team to help me with that. Of course they usually will provide some sort of mitigation but that just means I can tank more/higher levels than I can on my own, which is a bonus.

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All my tanks when soloing still herd, i dont do lower than unyielding atm, but they can herd because whats in the spawns are different to what will be on an 8 man team. When i solo malta i rely on knockout blow for a hold which can miss, now you could say get another hold from another epic but that too can miss but it can buy me running time before i get sapped to end drains i have no resistances too. I need support against end drains, i could pop blues, i may not get lucky, i could go unstoppable these are choices i have on a basic build.

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When I know I'm within my capabilities I'll often tell the empath not to worry about healing me unless in the red and to give Fort to someone who can use it more, like a blaster.

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With an empath in the team no one else needs to be getting hit but for anyone in the cone range (that if they wait should be pointing away from them at me) aoe range (which should be on me and not everyone has to be near me) or pbaoe range and no one can save people from themselves on that. Single target attacks should be with a patient team attacking me. There are so many teams that i have been on where only the tanker is getting hit. Thats good teaming. On lusca only the tanker actually needs to get hit, the rest dont have to be except for the minor DoT.

How is that done? Start with the end leg and kite it, be nearer to the next leg than the team and then the team moves in. What alot of tanks and teams do is tank runs up in melee range, team are next to him, when the leg hits him it hits the team, and if the team are behind him and far back the leg effectively is a cone attack and hits them. If you make it so those legs are directed away from the team they dont get hit just you do. Fort on a blaster then would improve their damage output. With a defender the team pretty much dont have to get hit, scrappers and blappers might, blappers can pull back and strike at range when needed with their defiance and scrappers well they cant be helped by me as a tanker when it comes to aoes and pbaoes unless i kite. Not always a need to kite but with single target healers its the best option. They cant quickly heal everyone up from a pbaoe or aoe and the only way for a tanker to stop that is to not allow it. The way hamidon is done is in some cases the best way.

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True. Tanks don't "need" the fighting pool.
But a scrapper doesn't "need" attacks. And an empath doesn't "need" heals.

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Primaries are to an AT better than their secondaries overall and the secondaries are better than the power pools overall. If a scrapper doesnt attack he is not scrapping. There is no law against not taking some attacks and choosing other powers similar with empaths but its a good idea to have just enough of whats needed.

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There's a difference between needing and not being able to routinely perform your team role adequately. As Sin says, I don't think a fire tanker could reliably tank for a large team without taking tough... they would certainly need considerably more support from other toons to do so.

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Tough is just smash and lethal, some missions are missing smash and lethal altogether. Firetanks are tanks without tough. You dont need tough, i have said balls to it atm with mine.

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Now certainly INV, Ice and Stone can tank in groups without the fighting pool, but they'll usually get more damage mitigation with the pool than without it (only exception: Stoner in Granite with Stone Skin doesn't get a benefit from Tough, only Weave). It's a tanker's traditional job in a team to be an aggro sponge and therefore more damage mitigation is a Good Thing (tm).

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Yes damage mitigation is a good thing and it comes in many forms. Armours not being the only one.

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Even WITH the fighting pool, I wouldn't like to see anything but Granite (or maybe a well-built INV) tanking the likes of Lusca without **major** support. That's the whole point of GMs.

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Firetanks are tougher than warshades and pbs, i tanked lusca with both tyvm. 1 empath is capable of keeping 1 regen scrapper alive.

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If you examine the Stone set, you'll find that when out of Granite armor it has got mediocre defenses. The point of taking the fighting pool on a Stoner would be to increase their defences when out of Granite, and be available for those rare occasions when you need more mitigation than Granite alone can offer.

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I get mitigation from the team, teams support eachother, damage mitigation often cant be helped. If i have all foes around me terrorised by a mind controller my armours start to do sod all.

The level of survivability a team can create for eachother is often untapped in alot of teams.

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go with concept first.

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When i first saw this post that was my first thought. People tend to be looking to be number 1 at something or getting something good for them or others as opposed to entering game with an idea to play as a superhero and run with it.

I have 50 toons with my altaholism (nearly 13*50's but 5 actual and so many so called gimped builds cos of the concepts i fancied (usually synergistic) but by playing them i learn about them and some of them have some lovely surprises. Playing so many toons makes me realise how much is actually ignored. For example some people forget they have a trick archer and not some kind of healer and play in a way thats ineffective for a trick archer to really benefit them (debuffs on unaggroed bring aggro to the trick archer who fai iirc incidentally isnt a tank , tank maging plus levels is possible but not with certain random movements of people).

i went there and left a message for you chi.

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I think you can lose end too despite being interrupted, but its m00t, as often by the time you can use it again end recovery takes away some of of it away if you have stamina.

[/ QUOTE ]If you're interrupted, you can use the power again immidiately. So if you're under fire, spamming an interruptable power can drain your whole END bar in a second. Endurance slotting in aid self is thus very useful.

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Yes but who in their right mind would sit there and keep spamming it without looking for ticks?

The power has to come back up. i tested it this morning, well i wasnt a spammer of it admittedly but everytime i felt a moment was right i went for it (which is something to try and look for).

Never said you shouldnt slot for endurance either, i said "i wouldnt" and thats one out of two misimplications i felt was placed on me.

keyquotes from myself:

"Mileages will vary per build and enemy faced as often damage over time can be effecting you."

"The end cost on invulns is nothing special but aid self does use alot tho"

Now i will quote Maelwys

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Name calling is not likely to make me believe that you have comprehended the facts.

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Point to what name calling please i cant find any. I have been at work since posting (well i had to goto town for the bank prior) hence my late reply.

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The BASE interrupt time on Aid Self is one second. This is not activation. This refers to a time window DURING the activation time- within which if you get affected by an enemy then the power will fail to work.

If you slot interrupt reductions into Aid Self, you will decrease the aforementioned time window. Therefore if you are recieving a constant stream of damage you will likely be able to use the power successfully more often.

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I know all this and this is why your repeating yourself for nothing, its why i said your making an argument out of nothing and no..

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The original poster wondered "I`m guessing this makes it possible to resist interrupts" which it doesn't. It doesn't allow you to "resist" interrupts at all. Your posts appear to suggest the contrary (you even stated that you were confused) and I attempted to clarify the issue.

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I havent said anything to the contrary, in your head i have but in fact havent.

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Endurance usage is fairly heavy on INV primary

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The above part confused me btw.

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The point is that in this instance, on an INV tanker it makes very, very little sense to attempt to reduce the interrupt time. You will almost never encounter a situation where it will make any difference to you because of Invincibility's defense buff.

INV already has endurance issues and you will certainly encounter endurance problems if you find yourself having to use the power regularly. Therefore End Reduction slotting is a good idea.

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I dont know what type of tanker this guy is which is why i would want to look at his build before suggestions.

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If something is barely worth having then rely on other things.

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Why rely on it? Because it's a tool that increases your survivability.

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It can cost you precious time in taunt control, tanking is not just about your survivability its about the teams survivability essentially within the first few moments of a fight but still till however long is needed. Trying to click a power like aid self when some taunt control is in order and a defender or controller has your back anyway is compromising.

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Survivability is what a tanker is all about. When played as the typical team role you are an aggro-magnet and every power that helps to keeps you alive and control aggro is worth taking.

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With a combined total of 1600 hours of tanking with 4 tanks let me say this "oh really?". More statements made to me about stuff i already know.

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Nope dont go to that extreme. How else will you deal with alphas?

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This is the very point I'm making.
Your survivability suffers when you don't take pains to keep yourself alive.

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If you need to rely on always having your precious buffers to do your job, then your tank is a BAD TANK.

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Tanks are about taunt control mainly and defenders cant do that. The defenders are a support AT there for a reason. Your tank cant take on everything in the entire game content without defense "sets". I dont care what you do you can get temp powers from warburg, a shivan from bloody bay, amy jonsson from croatoa, a warwolf pet and go and solo an AV with a granite tanker. You used debuffs and you have a buffer.

Now i know i could respec my tanks with fight pool and med pool and go about tanking with defenders alot less in mind and needing them a lot less, in fact not really needing them till i want to do an AV and i dont have the temp powers. But i dont do that, defenders are great, everything they can offer is valuable. What they bring to the team is valueable and i dont need all that extra stuff from the pools. They should due to good team dynamics be wasted power choices.

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That's not to say you won't have fun, but you won't perform anywhere near as well as a sturdy aggro-magnet.

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Aggro magnetism comes from taunt control thats my job, thats what tanks offer with enough survivability. No other AT does that and so have no chance in doing my job for me period. I have managed everything with a plain old build "with haste" and without being one of them tanks that likes certain defenders and more than one type neither. When it comes to defenders its the players behind them that matters and build isnt everything neither.

This has taken a bit of editing just to be as clear as i can be.

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Afaik you don't lose endurance if youre interrupted.


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You did last time I tried it on Red Noise (last Defiant Hamidon Raid).

IIRC it takes endurance as soon as you start the animation, not when the heal hits or you get interrupted.
I certainly remember mashing it in CoT maps and being stripped of endurance very quickly.

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I think you can lose end too despite being interrupted, but its m00t, as often by the time you can use it again end recovery takes away some of of it away if you have stamina. However, many outside effects can effect the outcome suggesting their maybe more than an aid self problem. I'd want to look at the whole build personally.

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The shorter the interrupt time the less of a window of opportunity there is for an attack to interrupt.


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This is Semantics.

Interrupt reduction slotting does not work like resistance by reducing the likelyhood of your being interrupted when you get hit. It is not a "-XX% chance to be interrupted"- it is a "shorten the time window during which you will be interrupted if hit".

If you're getting hit very rapidly (example: recieving more than one "damage over time" effects) there is virtually nothing you can do to prevent being interrupted and you'll waste more endurance trying.

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Maelwys i know about everything you are waffling on about repeating yourself. Making an argument out of nothing.

Interrupt time period 0 - 1 sec, if nothing hits you even a damage over time tick within that period the power will activate. How hard is that for you to understand that that is all i have said. Its got sweet FA to do with chance through its own calculation just chance from the time you activate it to what attacks are happening on you.

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You have people in the team that are there to support you, how about concentrating on supporting them and let them support you?


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What relevance does this have to slotting Aid Self? A defender won't care if you have it slotted for interrupts or endurance reduction.

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If something is barely worth having then rely on other things. Id never bother with aid self on anything with low def or without a an aoe secondary effect its like clutching at straws, grabbing at thin air when nothing is there at times when it would of been simpler to do something else.

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Usually they can increase your defence or endurance, or even throw you a heal...

It also assumes that you're teamed and have support toons in the team.

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Most likely you are, unless everyone else in the team is a scrapper and even then they can be supportive and well not even need you. You dont need aid self to solo. You dont need powerpool picks to get through the game. Sometimes a bit of tactical thought is a better choice but they dont supply people with that.

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Taken to the extreme it could mean that no tank should need anything other than aggro-grabbing powers, because the "support toons" will keep them alive.

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Nope dont go to that extreme. How else will you deal with alphas? Tanks take intial damage, gain taunt control so that other people can begin at minimal risk and everyone else pretty much takes over. All in a space of a few seconds.

I dont have tough or fitness on mine. Still got some levelling to do to see how she turns out but i am past the point of the moment where its normally a must have. You should look at the defenders especially and anyone else in the team and do whats best required for them to stand the best chance in supporting you. Teamwork is everything to me, running through missions with people not knowing if their next attack or whatever is going to bring them defeat i dont like but how ever hard ya may try people can mistime things and muck things up. The word 'ready' is rarely known in these parts.