Miladys_Knight

Player concept and dev concept are 2 entirely different things. The devs tend to cling to their version of their concept even when mutiple players point out the non-sequitors and logical disconnects. States was always a good one to cling like a vise to his ideas (even the ridiculous). Posi does tend to listen to the player base (except about the market.) We don't really know yet which way War Witch will go.

Hardly. Merely attempting to clarify the situation. I was presented with a misleading statement of the type that is X+Y always = Z. When the truth of the matter is that sometimes X+Y = Z but only if we omit B, C, and D and add in E.

Once you get to that point which isn't all that hard for many buffs sometimes needing only 1 or 2 buffers to cap it out (Forcefields and Kinetics being 2 excellent examples) There is absolutely no advantage to having a defender over another buffing AT and the defender inherent means that you can actually be at a disadvantage compared to another buffing AT. No matter what argument you present, that is not the place that the AT that is designed as the top support AT in the game should find themselves at.

I would venture to say that you are one of few. As you'll recall one of the reasons old defiance was changed was because it was counter productive. Current vigilance is the same. I can imagine Statesman saying something similar about vigilance as he did about defiance.

For Blasters, "just ask the defender not to heal you."

For Defenders, "just don't heal the blasters...."

and again you would be one of few.

Not really. Until you hit the damage cap 35% more damage is 35% more damage. It's not a dimishing return as it is for vigilance. With vigilance, the harder you work, the more experience you have, the more you develop your character with IOs, the less you get from your inherent. It is actually the perfect tool for leaving an AT at static levels of benefit. A very non-rewarding place to be and not the reason that most folks play CoX.

Against harder content you can't wipe whole spawns in the late game with just FSC+Fireball+teammate's contributions. ITF's are excellent examples of this. In most missions spawns are at +1 level anywhere from 33-50% of the time. Even setting difficulty at +2 will allow you to build up full defiance nearly every spawn.

A very hyperbolic arguement. Having a good kin on a team happens about as often as getting a consistant return from vigilance. (ie: rarely)

Except that it's not an exaggeration. You don't have to have massive set bonuses to get that kind of performance from IOs. Simple and cheap Franken slotting (or comparatively inexpensive uncommon sets like thunder strikes, doctored wounds, red fortunes, titanium coating, etc) could be done by everyone with only a small amount of effort. In many cases this is enough extra performance to make the difference in buff values nearly a non-factor. 3 sets of thunder strikes are not at all hard to come by for anyone making an even moderate effort on slotting IOs and that alone gives you excellent personal numbers on acc, dam, rech, and end for the power slotted with these sets but the defense set bonuses completely eliminate the difference between controller insulation shield + controller dispersion and defender insulation shield + defender dispersion when slotted to the ED soft cap.

That's not an outlier or a non-factor. That's easy to do and should be taken into consideration, not blithely ignored.

Except that you don't have to be super IOd to obviate defender levels of buffs. Uncommons and franken slotting are all that is needed to make controller or corruptor buffs adequate in places defender buffs were needed/desired previously.

Nor have I but to be honest you don't have to hit the hard cap on defense. Soft capping gives you 45% defense and it's possible to exceed that by a few percentage points. All you really need to make sure that you don't ever drop below 45% defense, even in a high defense debuffing situation like an ITF, even without any DDR is another 25ish defense. Once you get to that point you only take 5% total of all incoming damage. It's not that hard to survive against 3 or 4 +2 or +3 level 8 player spawns with that kind of mitigation especially since most ATs have some resistance under all that and the wedding band is a cheap and easy, endlessly renewable, accessable by all, way to get lots more.

You don't need a defender to get those values, an /FF controller can get your that, a widow or 2, or even 2 or 3 teamates running manuvers.

I play it all. My weekend SG typically picks oro arcs at random and the coalition and global channel I hang out in does Hami and ship raids 2-3 times a week (or more) and there's usually a shard TF at least once a month.

That aside I can see how the defender is getting dinged. IO sets, the seldom useful and conceptually backwards inherent, and Going Rogue on the horizon all taking their respective bites out of the defender AT. I believe that it's time for the most dev neglected AT to have an update.

What I mean by "even when RA is down" is that on a team of 2 or more, I don't need RA for myself at all. I cast it for the rest of the team.

My FF defender does have higher toggle costs but has much more extra recovery than is required to "make up the difference" and the blast sets and epics are identical.

The FF uses (and needs to use) Dark Consumption frequently. (It's on a base 360 second recharge as compared to RA's 500 second recharge) Had I built for +rech rather than +defense I would still bankrupt my self. I'd do it faster and still need Dark Consumption more often than it's available.

The Emp doesn't even need to have Dark Consumption in the build (except when soloing)

First your statement is a false extrapolation with a non-sequitor as a conclusion.

If playing a defender well means that your teammates never take any damage, because your teammates are heavily IO'd....

If playing a defender well means that your teammates never take any damage, but you can't defeat an AV because your damage won't over come their regen..........

If playing a defender well means that your teammates never take any damage, then the defender doesn't need a buff even though a Controller or Corruptor can do just as good or better a job AND contribute more to the team.......

The problem is the point at which no damage occurs. If all 3 ATs can do that but the Corruptor or Controller can contribute more to the team after that point is reached, then yes the defender needs changing since the other ATS in question actually do a better job, taken as a whole, in the team role that the devs have tailor made for the defender. Clearly the primary is not in need of a change but the secondary power set needs to be improved in this case.

Let's not make the mistake that a buff is what is being asked for. The needed change may be a buff in the end, it may not, but what is being asked for is for the inherent power to actually make sense.

Let's change the perspective on the issue shall we? Let's look at blasters for a second. How much sense would it make if the blaster inherent made it so that the faster your blaster defeats things (due either to increased player skill, higher character level, or to the slotting of beneficial IO set bonuses) the less overall benefit defiance gives. Clearly if you are defeating things that quickly and are still maintaining adequate health then you don't need all the extra damage and hence no change is required.

Vigilance is broken in just that way but in regards to endurance usage rather than damage dealing.... and yes, it needs fixing.

I'm not so certain about the claim that no defender benefits more from vigilance than another. I haven't run the numbers to check but from playing both:

My Emp/Dark/Dark doesn't run out of endurance unless he is solo even when RA is down. He's a high recharge build having AB set up for perma. I can't remember a time any where with in the last year that he was teamed that his end bar was down more than 25 endurance. He runs his epic armor, Tactics, Manuvers, and Assault. He has Stamina 3 slotted but doesn't have any of the Uniques in Health.

My FF/Dark/Dark is a high defense build. I don't have or run hasten and I have set bonuses that give me a total of 28% global recharge. I have health slotted with Miracle +, Miracle Heal, and Numina +/+. Thunderstrikes give me recovery bonuses, Gift of the Ancients in the grantable shields give me more recovery and increase my max end. I have stamina 4 slotted. 2 level 50 generic endmods, a level 50 performance shifter end mod and a level 25 performance shifter proc.

I run Dispersion, Manuvers, Assault, the Epic armor, and Hover. Even on a team of 8 after I've bubbled the team if they stay inside dispersion I can run through an entire bar of end just from blasting, drop in and use Dark Consumption, and empty out the bar again and finish the fight just floating in the air waiting for my end bar to recover. That's not a rare occurance that's a common occurance happening at least once in a typical defeat all mission and happening nearly every time in an AV fight or Multi EB fight that you can get on ITFs.

Since the folks I run with move at near top speed and typically at +4 mobs without the buffs from my defender I agree. It's also the reason that I only play my defenders now in certain special circumstances such as Hami and Ship raids. Most of the time I'm better off with a controller or a blaster since my actual contribution to the team with my defender is typically less than with one of my controllers or one of my blasters (especially in the case of my buffing defenders. Not so much with my debuffing defenders but most of the defenders I play are buff oriented.)

This is mainly due to the use of IO set bonuses with the players I typically run with. The defender buffs are typically overkill and corruptor or controller buffs are adequate even against +4 mobs.

Sadly it's not my defender that is allowing this but set bonuses and lower powered buffs from other buffing ATs instead. I wind up playing a toon that has high powered buffs wasted in overkill and low damage contribution. This is the reason that all my new buffing characters after GR comes out will be Corruptors. Adequate buffs, extra damage, and scourge. I may actually enjoy playing a buffing character again.

Perhaps, but maximum benefit comes from having an 8 man team with one or more heavily damaged/defeated teammates, something that typically happens only on a team that is composed of new or poor players. You can buff your inherent into oblivion and the more experienced you are and the more experienced your team is the less you get from your inherent. Hyperbolic or not that is exactly backwards of what I expect out of an inherent. It should be just as good at level 1 as at level 50, should be as good for a 60 month vet as it is for a 1 month vet, and it certainly shouldn't give me less benefit the better I do my job.

The maximum benefit is normally irrelevant but so are the mid and minimum levels of benefit. If you slot your defender so that you can perform without, or with few, endurance issues, whether you are on a 2 man team, or an 8 man team, all levels of benefit from vigilance are virtually irrelevant, which I believe is the point that Talionis sought to bring up with his OP.

Actually I believe that the issue is more one of those that can heal and choose not to for the sake of reduced endurance costs for themselves. While that may be the exact attitude you would expect from a Corruptor it is the exact opposite attitude you would expect from a Defender.

I believe the inherent should reward you for doing your job well, instead of giving you higher rewards for doing your job poorly.

This.

Also as far as slotting damage procs in Aura powers I wouldn't really reccomend it as you will probably be unhappy with the outcome. You'll average an extra 84 damage every minute. A single ED capped defender AoE attack will give you 65ish damage and apply it's secondary effect in just a couple of seconds.

The best place for procs is fast activating, fast recharging, low damage attacks.

I will be. Any new non-controller buffer/debuffer I create will be a redeemed corruptor unless the only place I can get the Primary/Secondary I want is as a defender (and I've all ready done all of those that I care to).

First on my list is a Fire/Dark.

That's certainly doable but could be fairly complex or have other implementation problems. I prefer simple solutions.

In the closed beta where defiance 2.0 was being tested my suggestion for defiance was a toggle. When it was on it gave the blaster 25% more damage and 25% more recovery and when it was off it gave the blaster mag 4 mez protection and 100% higher regen.

When a mez hit the toggle would drop (this was back when any mez, even a fraction of a second one still dropped toggles) and break the blaster out of it at least until another of the same type mez was stacked on it and the blaster was frozen in his tracks. Simple and I thought elegant.

The devs went the complicated route though and gave us what we currently have instead. Chances are they would do the complicaed thing again.

I'm sorry. I seem to have confused you. I was talking about a team, not a walking disaster area or 8 people soloing the same map at the same time.

They've made changes from time to time. I remember my first /TA controller got killed a few times by firing Flash arrow, while stealthed, inside perception range of the mobs. The devs changed that some time ago though.

Actually it does. You get the benefit for 15 seconds after you activate the toggle. So Dark defenders, Rads, FF etc. get that benefit every time they turn the toggle on. After it's on they can still activate other powers to stack the buffs and the 5% end reduction from activating other powers make the toggles cheaper to run.

Also granting status protection isn't the way to go. Taking the sleep hole out of FF/ or Sonic/ would run contrary to dev history. Adding status protection to vigilance provides no benefit to the FF/ or Sonic/ which all ready have grantable status protection that is useable on self. Vigilance needs to benefit all power sets at least equitably.

Actually it is a form of compensation for the buffer since most of the buffing sets have powers that they can't use while solo because they can't be used on the caster. Also some of the debuffing ATs have area targetted debuffs, like Disruption Arrow, Tar patch, Sleet, Freezing rain etc, that could be used this way.

For example Empathy's healing Aura with ED capped rech slotting and cast time is about 6 seconds. The best an empath could get from rocking the aura would be 2 buffs, maybe 3 on a high recharge build. So keep in mind while figuring that even buffers won't be easily able to maintain a full set of 5 buffs, and the resultant benefits outside of a combat type situation.

High end defender IO builds all ready are nasty. This doesn't make them that much nastier and still pales in comparison to a high end IO'd Scrapper, Brute, Tank, Dominator, or Blaster.

The problem is that there are 2 different types of defenders, buffers and debuffers. (H34l0rs are actually buffing defenders) the inherent needs to benefit all defender ATs equally or at least equitably. Current vigilance doesn't do that nor does your suggestion since FF/ and Sonic/ defenders get mez protection and grant it to their team.

I'll say the same thing that I have said before when this comes up. Vigilance is the quality or state of being wakeful and alert a degree of wakefulness or responsiveness to stimuli.

To me that means that it should work the same no matter how many teammates you have (actually it should work better on smaller teams where you have less to watch out for) or even if you have none at all.

Vigilance's benefit shouldn't be anything that would benefit one particular defender power set or other. With that in mind I have always said that vigilance should give the defender a 5% global reduction in endurance costs and a 5% increase in global recharge each time the defender activates a primary or secondary power. The vigilance buff should stack up to 5 times and each 5% buff should last for 10-15 seconds.

That doesn't give any particular defender Power set a distinct advantage from vigilance it's fairly even across the board. The more aware you are and the more you buff and blast the better and more vigilant a defender you are.

The net effect is that defender will get to use their high powered long recharge time buffs a little more often but with out increasing the buff values and making the buffs over powered. It means that the defender does a little more damage by being able to cycle their harder hitting blasts a little more often with out actually increasing the defender damage modifier or defender DPA. It adresses the defender DPE issue and best of all it works the same no matter what team size you are on (even solo!), no matter what type of slotting you have chosen be it, TOs, DOs, SOs, generic IOs, or IO sets, and it provides that reward for doing your job well instead of penalizing you for doing your job well and rewarding failure.

Not according to a certain corruptor that trolls the defender boards. According to him that's the ideal situation. You just use vengance on the lame-o that couldn't keep himself alive, have all the endurance you can burn, and boost the team's damage by more than the Leroy would have contributed. All while providing the team with extra defense and status protection.

Khelds have other advantages and personally I dislike stalkers intensely, besides which everyone knows that the "devs hate villians."

What I will say is the same thing that Castle has said before, anything that is a buff in "x" state is seen by the player base as a nerf while not in "x" state and powers/buffs of this type have been avoided for the most part by the devs.

Vigilence is a classic example of a power that needs changing due to that since the buff is only received by "reactive h34l0rs" and poorly played defenders. Playing a defender well costs you your buff from your inherent. It's the only AT where that is true.

EDIT - In all seriousness regarding Khelds, the kheld is a shape shifter. I would have tied the Kheld inherent to shape shifting (ie: a buff of some type when ever you change forms). The devs did that somewhat when they allowed a breakfree effect from switching into Dwarf.

The highlighted part of your post is the problem with vigilance. The defender has absolutely no control what so ever over their own inherent. That is one of the things that is so very annoying about it.

If you want to be "realistic" about it, a DEFENDER, that lets a teammate DIE, has failed at being vigilant and should actually get a penalty of some sort.

Vigilance needs to be decoupled from team size and team health and control of it needs to be put into the hands of the defender.

All a tank has to do to get benefit from their inherent is hit with an attack. It's easy to use and the benefit is linear.

All a scrapper has to do is hit wth an attack. It's easy to use and the benefit is consistant.

All a blaster has to do is attack. A nice attack chain can be planned so that the blaster gets maximum benefit from the inherent. There's a bit of thought involved and it's a nice change of pace from other inherents.

All a controller has to do is their job and control things. Containment damage occurs anytime a mob is contained and they actually benefit more when other controllers or team members are present and using controls on the mobs.

A defender on the other hand needs to be on a huge team and fail miserably at their intended team role for maximum benefit?!?!?!?! That's totally messed up.

Even "being fair" and removing those threads from the list there are no threads that pair /TA with either Ill or mind going back 5 months. "Most" threads that offer up combinations for Ill reccomend /rad, /storm, or /FF mainly due to the synergies with PA or the potential for +rech from set bonuses or IOs.

Grav as you says "seems" to be paired up most frequently with /TA but the thread titles going back 5 months don't seem to support that. My own personal observations don't support that either as I can't recall ever having teamed with a Grav/TA though I can remember a few Grav/Rads and a spectularly hideous TF that was lengthened to almost 3 times the amount of time it should have taken by a very poorly played Grav/FF.

On the other side of the coin I have teamed with several Earth/TAs, a few Plant/TAs and a Fire/TA that was extremely well played. My Ice/TA is the only one that I have seen to date though.