McBoo

Again I have to point out that the single target nature of this suggestion will invariably pull tankers away from their main role in the game. Forcing tankers to think in terms of single target damage will lead to "tanker-lock" and even more unflattering comparisons with brutes and scrappers. I am not against the idea of tweaking tankers to address any issues they may have but I believe that they can be better addressed by going more of an AoE/melee controller route.

Personally I like Sarrate's suggestion (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=144567) because it offers something for everyone.

I'm down with this! I've said for a while that a bubble tanker would be the business. Shield Defense may have stolen some of the thunder but I still think it's a great idea.

Bumping this thread for further discussion...

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How does it make them stand out from brutes and scrappers?


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Brutes get very high ST damage and very high AoE damage, but it's all back loaded DPS.

Scrappers get high ST damage and AoE damage, it's evenly loaded DPS with punctuated bursts.

Stalkers get very high ST front loaded burst damage as well as high evenly loaded DPS punctuated with bursts.

Tankers would get high ST damage, medium AoE damage, evenly loaded.


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So all melee archetypes are vanilla but they have different colored sprinkles? You failed to actually make tankers stand out in your example. Based on what you present they simply become another damage dealer. And, in your example above, tankers still wind up taking a back seat to scrappers and brutes. It's about time we started thinking outside the box. Sarrate has a rather interesting way of dealing with tanker issues.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=144567

While I personally believe that throwing a period at the end of your character's name shows a singular lack of creativity, the act does not break any rules.

That being said I completely understand the frustration of having that perfect concept and name only to be denied at character creation. So I would like to see CoH take a page out of CO's book and assign player name designators to the character names (i.e. Captain Spandex@McBoo, Captain Spandex@Dispari, etc.) that would be totally transparent in game so that no one misses out on being Captain Spandex

I like what you've done with the place. The Digests need some tweaking though, you folks are letting your code show.

Also, we have blue for heroes and red for villains. I'd like to put in a vote that green be added for rogues.

Yes! We are back! I like what they've done with the place!

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Most mace tanks would doubtless be giddy with some Thor-like alternates. Double handed over head Shatter please.

Better yet, enable auras on weapons (flaming swords, electric mace..), and the double handed over head Shatter. Thank you.

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Knowing BaBs, we would have to be astronomically lucky.

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You know, they should create a new Astronomically Lucky badge that is somehow tied to power customization.

I noted in the pictures that include color palettes that there appears to be a dark circle at both ends of the color spectrum. Does one of these represent a transparent option?

My birthday was on the 26th and a beta invite would make the perfect present! I'm just saying....

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As the title suggests, I see two main problems with Tankers:

1) Their endurance efficiency
2) They don't stack well on teams

Their damage is fine for soloing (while they have endurance) and a single one is useful to groups. The problem starts when multiple Tanks are in the same team. Now, what could be done to modify end efficiency while also making more than one attractive to a group?

An idea struck me today while reading another thread, have Tanks buff one another in some way. This wouldn't modify soloing / solo tanking, but would make multiple Tanks less of a turn off. That simple premise evolved into a form of "Tanker Tactics."

Short Version
The basic gist is that Tankers would have multiple (mutually exclusive) Tanker Tactics toggles available, each one would provide different benefits while other Tankers are around.

Gritty Details
The Tanker Tactics toggles would simply enable modes on the Tanker similar to how Kheldian Forms work (note the "Enable Bright Nova mode" line). This would flag the Tanker as being in a certain mode.

Tankers would also get an auto power like Kheldian Cosmic Balance that targets teammates, but each buff would check "if target is a Tanker" AND "if in Mode_Whatever."

With that framework in place, we can create whatever Tanker Tactics we want. For example, we could create a 'Tanker Tactic: Offense' which would set an offensive mode. The passive would then give Tankers a +X% damage buff for each Tanker in range.

Another idea I had was Tanker Tactic: Control, which would boost the control effects of their powers by Y%. (Could make this boost Taunt, as well, to help the "main tank" hold aggro.)

Where does endurance fit into this whole mess? Well, there would be a single Tanker Tactic that could be used solo and wasn't modified by the presence of other Tankers. All it would do is provide a static +Z% (I'm thinking somewhere between 10%-15%) end reduction. This Tactic would allow for Tankers to solo with fewer end concerns, but they could switch if off in a multiple Tanker team in favor of other benefits if they want.


(If so desired, you could create a 'Tanker Tactic: Debuff' that enables a "Mode_Debuff," then the passive enables a "Mode_Debuff_Enabled" when "Mode_Debuff" is active and a Tanker is in range. Then Tanker attacks could then, say, have a Regen debuff that only fires when "Mode_Debuff_Enabled" is active. That's getting pretty ugly, though. :P)

Potential Problems
<ul type="square">[*]Complexity, not to put too fine a point on it. It may not be the most intuitive for someone to pickup. ("I'm running TT: Offense, why aren't I dealing more damage" when solo, for example.) It might also hit servers a bit too hard.[*]Conceptually, I'm a little hard pressed to come up with a good reason for this to be added.[/list]
If I admit this concept has a couple failings, why post it? Two reasons:

1) People may be able to improve upon.
2) If the above isn't possible, then to generate ideas. I won't be heartbroken if this is never implemented, but it may turn the gears in someone else's head that will lead to a more elegant solution.

So what say you, the Tanker community?

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I personally like the idea, it provides some freedom of choice and does quite a good job of resolving the issues which you mention. Having said that I think that you will find that with this in place most folks will be building all tanker teams with everyone running their "Tanker Tactic Offense". I see this as a fairly significant stumbling block to your proposal.

Please bear in mind that I still believe it to be a good idea, I like all the options for different tactic toggles that you mention and if applied correctly this could make tankers more interesting to play and more unique among the melee archetypes. Your greatest hurdle Sarrate is the same one that all proposed systems have; the likelihood of exploit.

In order to minimize the exploits, I would suggest that the tanker toggles be assigned a team rank based on where the tankers fall numerically on the team.

1. Fire/Kin Controller
2. SD/SS Tanker (Tier I Tanker Tactic Control)
3. Elec/Elec Blaster
4. Rad/Energy Defender
5. Dark/Fire Scrapper
6. Invy/Axe Tanker (Tier II Tanker Tactic Offense)
7. Peacebringer
8. WP/Stone Tanker (Tier III Tanker Tactic Debuff)

So basically you assign a tactic to a given Tanker Tier, for lack of a better term, and multiple tankers can choose their role based on which tier they choose. In the case of an all tanker team or more tankers on a team then available tiers they still get the single tanker toggle choice.

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What's "Molecular" blast? Maybe you blast your enemies with super-dense molecules...something like...lead!

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I dunno, Kinetics just has such an emphasis on movement that reminds me of the Flash, and Flash sure does like to talk about molecules, so...Molecular Blast!

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Off the top of my head I would say that particle beams would make for a fairly impressive Molecular Blast set. They would be a good thematic match for Kinetics as well.

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I also don't know that simply turning off Mud Pots more often will help with overall endurance issues.

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If my stone tank turned off everything that slows him down (either through endurance or speed) between fights, he'd be full on endurance every fight simply from activation times.

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Then I guess I misunderstood the OP's complaint. I was under the impression that we were offering up advice on how to minimize endurance burn during a battle. As far as I know there is no way to slot for endurance recovery in the pre-Stamina levels.

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Slot your attacks before slotting anything else. Slot your attacks with endurance reductions before anything else. Turn off Mud Pots as often as possible.

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I agree that everyone should slot at least one endurance reduction enhancement in their attacks but I would slot attacks for accuracy first and then endurance reduction. A miss drops your endurance but not the mob's hit points.

I also don't know that simply turning off Mud Pots more often will help with overall endurance issues. Whether you are using it for the taunt, slow or extra damage you are going to have it running during a battle. You can certainly turn it off between battles but at that point your endurance burn is really a non-issue.

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Instead of giving them all out better general damage to every enemy con in the game like a Scrapper, which would clearly be unbalanced considering their survivability, how about giving them less obtrusive single target damage to some of the rarer cons, like Bosses, EBs, AVs and GMs?

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How does this help make tankers more effective when they are running solo


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It allows them more damage, which is the area Tankers suffer from the most solo.

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or address their endurance woes?


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Fewer attacks to defeat foes means more efficient endurance use.

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How does it make them stand out from brutes and scrappers?


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Brutes get very high ST damage and very high AoE damage, but it's all back loaded DPS.

Scrappers get high ST damage and AoE damage, it's evenly loaded DPS with punctuated bursts.

Stalkers get very high ST front loaded burst damage as well as high evenly loaded DPS punctuated with bursts.

Tankers would get high ST damage, medium AoE damage, evenly loaded.


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But only against bosses and above....

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I understand that complaint, it's been repeated many times over the years.


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That should be an indicator of something.

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It is, they are called pipe dreams.

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Instead of giving them all out better general damage to every enemy con in the game like a Scrapper, which would clearly be unbalanced considering their survivability, how about giving them less obtrusive single target damage to some of the rarer cons, like Bosses, EBs, AVs and GMs?

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How does this help make tankers more effective when they are running solo?

How does it address their endurance woes?

How does it make them stand out from brutes and scrappers?

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Tankers are the team powerhouse like Colossus, the Thing, etc. but they are filtered into a game, where all the characters must be balanced. That means the "tough guy" can't also be the "high damage" guy, but it doesn't make them any less powerful. It just means there's more to power than high damage numbers.

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Agreed! I say that an Intimidation bar be added to all mobs that is numerically equal to their health points. This bar would only be affected by controls, debuffs and taunt effects and would be a factor in defeating a mob.

For example, you have a mob with a health/intimidation value of 1000 points. You can defeat this mob by doing 1000 points of damage or scoring 1000 intimidation points or any combination of the two that totals 1000 points.

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Any chance of posting your build BlueBeguiler?

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Here goes.

Stone Armor
Stone Skin - 2x Dam Resist
Rock Armor - 2x Defense, 1x End Redux
Mud Pots - 2x End Redux, 1x Slow
Brimstone Armor - 1x Dam Resist

Dark Melee
Shadow Punch - 1x Damage, 1x Acc
Smite - 2x Damage, 1x Acc
Shadow Maul - 2x Damage, 1x Acc
Taunt - 1x Taunt

Note, I do have a free respec waiting (this character is an alt for fun, but I hate being clueless about any AT/class I play in any MMO).

Mostly play solo since it's hard to find a team at lower levels.

Any and all help is welcomed.

Thanks!

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Okay I ran this through Mids' and with DOs slotted in your current setup and running all armors plus Mud Pots your endurance burn is 1.07 pts/sec before any attacks are taken into consideration.

This is my personal opinion but I would drop Brimstone Armor, elemental damage is not all that prevalent anyway and in 38 levels of playing a Stone Armor tanker I've never actually needed Brimstone Armor. I also would replace the Slow DO in Mud Pots for another Endurance Reduction. This will bring your standing endurance burn down to 0.74 pts/sec. Of course if you hold off on Mud Pots until level 22 and take Rooted (single slotted for End Red) instead you can get your standing endurance burn down to 0.4 pts/sec while running Rock Armor and Rooted! This would mean you would have to use Taunt more often to control aggro but it doesn't cost any endurance.

As far as the attacks go you have little other choice without resorting to pool powers so I can only suggest you slot your attacks in the following order: accuracy, endurance reduction, damage, etc...

It's not a perfect solution but should ease some of your woes over the next 8 levels. Also I would highly suggest that you go out and download Mids' Hero Designer if you can. It's a great app for this kind of thing!

Also, I wouldn't burn a respec for this. Use your alternate build to try out a different power selection or better yet copy your character over to the Test server and play around with builds there.

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I understand the conceptual reasons for wanting higher single-target damage, but when it comes to separating Tankers from Scrappers and Brutes, I believe AoE is the way to go. The best example is already in the game: Combustion/Cremate.

Tankers are melee Controllers and I think that should be played up- their AoEs should hit more targets, possibly a have larger radius, and better mez/debuff effects (than Scrappers/Brutes.)

Not that I don't think the idea of "tagging" an enemy for extra damage is a bad one, I think it's neat. I'm just not sure if it's appropriate for Tankers in this game.

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Agreed... where do I sign?