Kruunch

Finite resources (or choosing the battles to fight).

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Also note, nowhere did I say in the original post Tankers are rolled to do damage, but that they are rolled in big part (when not by MMO players) by people that have an inspiration in Superwoman, Colosusette, The Thing With No Thing, etc.

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Have you considered that for women Superman, Colossus, and The Thing may not be the role models you make them out to be?

Not that I'm really sure what they have to do with your proposal, to be honest.

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Fixed.

Am I the only one who thinks Dual Blades should never have been a Tanker secondary?

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It sounds to me like he is fine with the current state of Tankers. Even though it looks like Going Rogue may make Tanks unnecessary because of the onslaught of brutes coming over.

Only time will tell. But if there something coming up for Tankers, just give us a hint or something.

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I have a sneaking suspicion "Group LF tanker" will not being going away once all those Brutes get over here

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Any chance of posting your build BlueBeguiler?

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Will do when I get home from work tonight.

Also, what does "frankentslotting" mean? (Been gone for a long time, still catching up on lingo )

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Sorry ... frankenslotting means mixing up IO sets to produce the enhancement effect you want, disregarding set bonuses.

In other words say you want Seismic Smash up as often as possible, to be as accurate as possible, to do as much damage as possible and cost the least amount of endurance it can ... this would be impossible to achieve all at the sametime with SOs. However by mix and matching different IO sets you can fairly easily (and more cheaply) achieve something like:

95% Damage
95% Accuracy
95% Recharge
75% Endurance

That's known as "frankenslotting".

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Yet perhaps the reverse is true. I've been playing shields for about three days. There's not much mystery to the set. Yet I run into willpower tankers (at 50!) that don't understand what their toggles do, dark scrappers (at 50!) that don't know obsidian shield doesn't protect from knockback when it says so right there, fire/ss tankers (at 50! with TONS of IO's!) that don't understand that their big +recharge/+dmg build is totally crap for handing 54 boss pounding as lead tank... etc etc etc.

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Keep rereading this until the light bulb goes off. Semantical misdirection bores me.

<QR>

One of the big misconceptions (I think) to playing this game is rolling up a Tanker and expecting to be Super Man or The Thing or Colossus.

This isn't City of Marvel or City of DC, but City of Heroes, and the game and context must be confined to that for purposes of role play / lore discussion.

For the same reason rolling a Wizard in EQ never produced Gandalf or Merlin.

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I also find the game-world justification somewhat problematic. Taunt is already a somewhat artificially-feeling power as is; I'm not sure I want to exacerbate that by making it more artificial and on top of that see it being used more frequently for reasons that do not relate to its primary purpose.

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Well, technically, taunt (at least the ST section) will change from "hey, yommaa!" to "hey, you better take me down cos I'm now going to kick bellow the waist"

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This reminds me of an Armenian cab driver who once cursed me out by yelling at the top of his lungs "I now make crap in your hands!".

The ensuing laughter kind of took the wind out of his sails

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Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Ice Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Earth Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blazing Aura -- (A)(21)(21)(23)(23)
Level 1: Frozen Fists -- (A)(9)(15)(45)
Level 2: Healing Flames -- (A)(3)(3)(17)(19)(19)
Level 4: Frost -- (A)(5)(5)(11)(11)(17)
Level 6: Fire Shield -- (A)(7)(7)(9)(45)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- (A)(45)
Level 10: Hurdle -- (A)
Level 12: Plasma Shield -- (A)(13)(13)(15)
Level 14: Super Jump -- (A)
Level 16: Health -- (A)(34)(34)(37)(40)(42)
Level 18: Boxing -- (A)
Level 20: Stamina -- (A)(42)(42)
Level 22: Ice Patch -- (A)
Level 24: Tough -- (A)(25)(25)(34)
Level 26: Weave -- (A)(27)(27)(33)
Level 28: Freezing Touch -- (A)(29)(29)(31)(31)(33)
Level 30: Burn -- (A)(31)(46)(48)(48)(50)
Level 32: Build Up -- (A)(33)(46)(46)
Level 35: Greater Ice Sword -- (A)(36)(36)(36)(37)(37)
Level 38: Frozen Aura -- (A)(39)(39)(39)(40)(40)
Level 41: Stone Prison -- (A)(48)(50)(50)
Level 44: Taunt -- (A)
Level 47: Quick Sand -- (A)
Level 49: Temperature Protection -- (A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- (A)(43)(43)(43)
Level 1: Sprint -- (A)
Level 2: Rest -- (A)
Level 1: Gauntlet



<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>| Copy &amp; Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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This is the build I am going for. I have most of the IO's already in storage. The reason I am going for the S/L defense is because many ranged attacks also have a S/L component. Dont forget the change to defense bonuses have both typed and positional now.

My billions reference is if you want purples, which wont improve my build much, if at all.

My spines/vuln tanks very well. It can cap S/L when surrounded and is at 36% with one mob. It does not have tough or weave. It does have Aid Self. (numbers are real close, I have not played it in a few weeks.)

But, as with all things. Opinions vary. What works best for you may not work best for everyone. The opportunity cost is also a variable. I have the IO's ready for this build. I am saving up to get IO's for other builds for other toons. My spines/vuln is a better farmer than my fire/ice. My fire/ice is my badge toon. With the better build I may want to play it more, but the other tanks and scrappers are more fun and not a one trick pony.

YMMV

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Not sure what your point here is.

If it is that S/L defense is better then Melee defense across the majority of the game, I would agree.

If it's that S/L defense is easier to build then Melee defense it isn't (considering KCs availability currently). Also building Melee defense will also give you access to higher accuracy and recharge rates via set bonuses (yours are currently sitting at 18% and 10% respectively on your wish build).

I don't include purples in my discussion of builds and expectations unless the topic specifically centers around them (I have yet to put a purple into a single build of mine for that matter).

Ok ... since you're obviously wanting a lesson in character building / playing (coulda just asked nicely) ...

I said the *most* amount of skill in this game is building your character. You don't build your character by copying another build ... but by understanding what the build does from experience.

Along those lines, the overwhelming vast majority of players who actually *build* their toons well (i.e. not just copy from the boards and throw a ton of influence at it) also tend to play their toons well (at least when focused). The whole time and effort thing. I've yet to meet a person who put that much time and effort into a really well built character, who didn't play well.

So they almost go hand in hand. The other big part to this equation is knowing what you're facing and how that will effect your build. That comes from experience and/or doing your homework. Finally, a smaller part to the equation is being able to handle the unexpected. I say small here because this game from a content perspective just doesn't throw a whole lot of curves at you.

If your assertion here is that the order in which you are mashing your buttons requires a certain amount of concentration on your part ... well ... (trying really hard to not offend you again) ... it shouldn't. Experience (part of that whole character building thing) will make going through the motions more of a reflexive act then a conscious one.

P.S. - Part of making a great build does include dipping into IOs yes. This should be taken as a given (again).

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Your ability play the tanker is one thing, how much influence is invested in it is another. This is not a skill gap issue.

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The largest amount of skill required in this game is building your character. "Well built" today means investing time and money into acquiring IOs. That should be a given ... if it isn't, then welcome to 2006.

BTW when you go into the water, you might get wet. Obvious but apparently that's what we're doing today.

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The rest of the earning ethics through your belief in capitalism isn't relevant in the least to the discussion.

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You get what you pay for. It is perfectly relevant. If you want to spend billions you get better IO's.


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Now we're up to billions?! You sure picked the right two people to merge together on your avatar to get that kind of inflation.

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And I think Kinetic Combats are better on a fire tank with Obliteration's.


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You would be incorrect (you'd also be mixing your positional and typed defenses). Forgetting for the moment that Kinetic Combats are harder to find right now, positional (melee) defense is easier to raise then typed (S/L) start from 0 (which is where a Fire Tanker starts). Also sets with positional defense tend to give better overall bonuses (not an exhaustive study ... just my general experience having built both).

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I will respec mine to 41%defense after I get bored with running with SO's on the second build. It wont be the best, but it is what I can afford at the moment.

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My Spines/Fire Scrapper can tank my L52 boss farm with 35% melee defense. He also cost 150 million to build (my most expensive to date). It took me all of 8 hours game time (a week irl) to earn the influence to build him.

If someone could give me the difference between that and the billions I'm supposedly spending, I'd appreciate it

Most Brutes I've seen make horrible Tanker substitutes ... mostly from the standpoint that they're built and played like Scrappers.

I've only seen a couple of Brutes really run well on a "tanking TFs" standpoint and both were built by people who had Tankers as their mains.

This is obviously very subjective but its been my experience to date.

As far as the ITF goes ... anything over an hour is a failure to me. Fastest ITF I've run is 37 minutes ... was with a Fire Tanker leading in fact.

*EDIT* The worst ITF I've been on was 1:47 and that was also with a Fire Tanker leading the way. Shrug.

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You didn't correct me ... you just illustrated that you don't know how to play a Fire Tanker in an ITF.

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Why do you quote the entire post for a pointless quip? If all you're going to do is throw around ad hominems while I correct you, at least remove the wall of text! I can ignore pettiness, but scrolling down a page of quote to get to it wastes my time.

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I figured by making you scroll I saved 1.7 people from dying in one of your ITFs

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Stone Armor/Dark Melee

So pretty much the next 8 levels will suck.

I can deal with that

Thanks for the input all.

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I don't know where people got the idea that Dark is endurance heavy. That's just silly.

*EVERY* Tanker with the exception of WP, deals with these issues through L20 (Stamina).

So yeah, at L20 get Stamina and your end woes will lessen by quite a bit. At L30 (or so) start frankentslotting your attacks and the rest of your end issues should disappear. Then you'll get Dark Consumption and heavy chaining single target attacks on a build with Hasten will most likely not even bother you much.

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my fire tank must be in a league of its own then *shrugs*

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with the amount of influence it would take to build it again, yes it is.

Mine will not be as good as yours because I do not have the time or influence. Dont misconstrue this hate because of a have/have not ordeal. I am very much a capitalist and believe you work for or towards what you have. You have earned your tank and its capabilities and I think it gives goals for those looking for better.

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Tons of purples and +recovery doesn't do much for his survivability.

BTW just to dispel the notion that it takes a ton of influence to build a toon ... the only expensive part to building a Fire Tanker's defense is the Obliterations, which don't cost hundreds of millions of influence.

*BUT* if you were set on a build that took 300 million influence to build, it would take the *average* player (any player really) about 20 hours game play (for some that's less then a week ... for the more casual players 2-3 weeks) on a less then optimal team to farm up that kind of influence (that's 15mil inf per hour btw).

The rest of the earning ethics through your belief in capitalism isn't relevant in the least to the discussion.

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You're being obtuse.

Of course I'm talking about IO'd sets. Anyone with even minor experience in tanking and the sets we're talking about should have understood that.


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Actually you were being obtuse in your statement, which is why I had to correct you. I eschew obfuscation, to steal a phrase. It is not a fair expectation that the average fire or dark tanker has hundreds of millions of influence in IO investment. You subjectively view that as the threshold for a well built tank, but my experience is that most people don't share your opinion - and people hardly have that expectation when looking for a tanker to run the ITF, or at least I've never seen "Looking for tanker for ITF - if you're fire or dark please have 30%+ smash/lethal defense!".

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And yes, Fire Tankers would need some type of support (I believe Dark can resist cap S/L or close to it so not as important for them), but in a full group, the chances of their being no Defenders or Controllers (or Corruptors, or MMs, or Doms) is fairly minimal.

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Dark and Fire both get to 70% S/L res with tough. I recently ran a 1:15 ITF at challenge level 4 with 2 corrs (kin and storm) and a 48 defender (bubbles) with 3 low level (37-45) shield brutes. (I was on a fire/invuln scrap). I think we ended up with ~50 deaths. Mostly experienced players (1 newbie, 2 semi newbies), 43% of the team on support characters, yet with all that "support" the shield brutes spent half their time flat on their back during mission 2 and 3. Making the assumption that just having a defender or two along = the right type of support is silly.

As much as I dislike empaths (simply from their tag as 'healer' rather than buffer), they're probably the single most useful powerset to pair with dark and fire for the ITF, with cold and FF right behind. Sonic and thermal are also both fantastic - 90% res is significantly less damage than 70% res and gives dark regen and healing flames more time to recover.

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Someone who's run the ITF a billion times on a Fire and Dark Tanker would know this ... just by purview of that statement.

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Which is exactly why I had to correct you. A leveling fire tanker with a solid build will do very poorly on the ITF without significant support, while solidly built sub-40 invulns and granites will do fine. People don't ask for a fire tanker with 300MM in IO's, they ask for a tanker. If you're the tanker in question, you should know what type of support you need to do well.

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You didn't correct me ... you just illustrated that you don't know how to play a Fire Tanker in an ITF

I don't think Gauntlet needs to be changed. If added damage is what you're after, I think these things should be addressed in the sets (i.e. Ice Melee).

Focused Accuracy ... meh.

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Fire and Dark Tankers do just fine in the ITF. Badly built Tankers of all varieties do not.

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Either your approximation of a well built tank is a ton of IO's or you're oblivious to what support does for you (my guess is the latter, given our discussions) while playing a fire or dark on the ITF.

Dark and Fire are resist based sets with no defense debuff resistance and low base defense. Even if you get them up to 45% S/L or melee (I've got builds planned for both of mine to hit 45% S/L defense) they suffer from cascading defense failure that makes standing in a crowd of 4-8 roman bosses for an extended period unsupported, well, an unwise endeavor. My mitigation route has been to bring oranges to cap my resists (the extra 20% reduces damage significantly and gives the team time to come bail me out and dark regen/healing flames time to refresh) and I tend to run on support heavy teams, so my tanks do fine... but neither can stand in a crowd of bosses and EB's for an extended period of time unsupported. Just because I run on teams that routinely pummel the ITF doesn't mean I'm oblivious to the mechanics involved.

My invulns (scrappers and brutes, mind you, all softcapped on the cheap to S/L) laugh at Cims, they're less dangerous than 54 boss farms (thnx for adding defense debuff resist to tough &amp; rpd!) ... but for a pure resist set like Fire or Dark, Cims will eat you alive by design. Go herd up the towers on a fire or dark (you know, drag 2-3 spawns into one location for efficient aoe) and show me how easy it is with no support or insps to hang out there for a minute or so

I have both sets of tanker and have run approximately a billion ITF's, which is my basis for disagreeing with "A well built fire or dark tanker will do just fine" ... no, they'll do fine with support, but they're just not designed to handle that type of punishment. It's sort of like suggesting invuln's a great set to kill the CWK with - there's no way to 'properly build' an invuln to handle it without ridiculous IO investment. We're not talking about faceplanting WP tankers that forget tough and weave, here - darks and fires don't have tools available to them to handle cascading defense failure plus extremely low defense before IO's, and that's by design. Get some help capping your defense (or invest very heavily to softcap yourself) and you're much safer, but still need to be on your toes for the cascade.

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You're being obtuse.

Of course I'm talking about IO'd sets. Anyone with even minor experience in tanking and the sets we're talking about should have understood that.

And yes, Fire Tankers would need some type of support (I believe Dark can resist cap S/L or close to it so not as important for them), but in a full group, the chances of their being no Defenders or Controllers (or Corruptors, or MMs, or Doms) is fairly minimal.

Someone who's run the ITF a billion times on a Fire and Dark Tanker would know this ... just by purview of that statement.

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Absolute madness. I took an Em/Ela brute to 50 with Aid Self, Stamina and fighting pool and it was the time of my redside life. If they hadn't nerfed Em I'd still be playing it.

I solo, duo, small teams, TF/SF, you name it.

Some stuff that needs refuting in this thread:
Grounded: Works fine on slopes and [censored], that got fixed. Rarely got KB'ed at all, usually only if leaping from one spawn to another when an ally was in need.
Aid Self: One interrupt was enough to fire this off nearly whenever I wanted, a second and I was firing it off during dots without a second thought. Once you get used to the timing you can stop, heal and start moving again while the effect finishes.
Teams: If you can get ice or ff shields you are a god.
CP: It's good, or would you like to see the screaming if it was removed from the APPs? It will come in at frickin' level 18. People take both Stamina and QR but THIS gets ridiculed?

Then again, this is the Tanker forum so we will whine and [censored] and moan and tell people who want to be positive to "wait and see" rather than the other way around. lmao

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CP wasn't being ridiculed ... but the fact that Tankers already get it as an APP was thought to mean that it might be replaced for ElA Tankers.

Yep, Mocking Beratement is a perfect substitute for Oblit or similar set. Nice change up.

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Never said this was the fastest or best way to level. Just a quick way to try out that tank build you came up with in Mids

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Awww...but it'd be funner to run them through the TFs

Sadly, the ITF has ruined me on some tankers *glares at DA &amp; FA* Love the TF so much, and I've yet to see a decent DA or FA tank survive that TF on their own.

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Fire and Dark Tankers do just fine in the ITF. Badly built Tankers of all varieties do not.

Oblits are better for Consume as they concentrate on Recharge (better stats too). Multistrikes are better for auras as they concentrate on Endurance.

Never said this was the fastest or best way to level. Just a quick way to try out that tank build you came up with in Mids