Grey Pilgrim

One note for people proposing ideas. Kheldians are not VEATs. Nor are they Kins. The devs aren't ever going to make them that way (cottage rule again), and it would be a terrible idea if they did do it. If you like VEATs, play a VEAT: making every other class into one is not a good thing, it makes the game bland and play the same.

Kheldians can be improved in ways that keep them unique and what they are. It is is possible. But it really hampers things when people keep having such unrealistic expectations for them.

One of the better ideas I saw in here that works within the constraints of the Kheldian AT would be lowering the def debuff and adding some resistance debuff (though people belittle that def debuff far too easily... I know I was able to focus less on accuracy for my PB for most of his powers, since I slotted for good accuracy with my openers, and relied on that def debuff to carry over for the other powers). So keep thinking along those lines, as well as keeping all approaches to Khelds open (human form only, dual, and tri forms).

I also wonder if some more things could happen if caps were instituted. If Human form had a lower resistance cap than Dwarf, could you give it some mez resistance and health? etc. Same thing for the cosmic balance modifiers, etc. No time to think about it more while at work, but just throwing it out there.

Better hope that character is more of an homage, but even then with a name like that, you're probably going to get generic'd at some point. Just to warn you.

I've done homages to characters like that before, but the name was different, and the look was similar because the villain wanted to look like a favorite character of theirs. That seems to be okay.

I think you jump higher than CJ with it, and it detoggles in combat anyway, so you wouldn't want to run it at that time anyway.

As I said before, I'm not sure why they made it exclusive with CJ, as you no one is going to want to use it in combat. Doesn't really add up, and limits how much it's going to help you travel a bit.

If you run a Manti, there will be more PPE's there for sure. Have fun with that. Might join in anyway depending on when you run it.

Are we at 35 or 6? I see people spread out over both, so I'm just curious.

Yeah, it has SJ values for PvP, if I read it right. So funny.

But at least Sprint stacks with it. Should be nice for my SR Scrapper, who is a Samurai of sorts. Linky for those who want it. Not sure how much or little I'll be using it, but it is fun.

Ah... sounds like I won't want the mutant pack, then (which is probably good... I now have 3 packs I would like to get). Don't really have an animal bent with any of my character ideas.

If you want to see picks and vids, go to my link in my other post. That's the NCSoft page, and they have quick vids of the emotes, costume changes, and Ninja run. And I do believe it is available today.

Wonder what the numbers are on Ninja run... and if it's mutually exclusive to sprint and/or combat jumping (and other travel sets).

*added*

Anyone know if you'll be able to pick the Martial Arts pack with the Architect Edition? The store just says Cyborg and Magic right now, which makes me wonder if it won't include the newer ones like Science and Martial Arts.

Part of me wants to say we already have too many martial arts costumes, but those parts will go well with other getups.

And those animations are awesome. Very Matrix-y for "bring it" and the pushups are just funny. Ninja Run will be nice, too... have to see if I can get out of travel power picks whenever I get this. Question is when. I'm going to pick up the Architect Edition to get my CDs up to date, and you get a booster pick with it (which I assume Martial Arts will be a part of). So now I have to decide if I want the Cyborg or Martial Arts one more.

Wonder what the heck they're going to do for the mutant one. That one seems difficult.

Man, busy point in the semester for a good thread to get going. Anyway, Joe basically said what I was arguing for in my long post, I just talked about a lot more to do it. I agree that something needs to happen, but a straight damage buff to human form isn't enough/isn't really addressing the root problem.

That's why I tried to mention more specific things in my post. There are clear problem powers for Peacebringers that could easily be tweaked, making them and the AT work more effectively. On top of wat I recommended earlier, I rather wonder if people would like having the buffs we earn from the team lowered, in return from a greater base power? I'm not sure how they would go about balancing that out, but that might help address the "solo versus teamed" disparity some.

I also would still really like to know what the reasoning is behind the long animation change to Nova or Dwarf. It's constantly pointed out, and really does hang things up for a shifting AT. If they don't want to do away with that, it would be nice if we could access some human form powers while in the forms, too.

So I guess that's what I'm arguing for: improvements that are going to tackle the more specific issues Peacebringers, and then Kheldians have.

I shall be there as well, sitting at 34. See you all there!

Victory Badges 2009 is the new one. Victory Badges filled up. That and Victory Forum should cover your bases.

Yeah, it is a little weird. Especially since the story reasoning for the costume at level 10 is that you want to look like a hero... Arachnos weapons are fairly obvious looking, and not good if you're trying to look like someone else. Something that would be a concern, considering how much backstabbing goes on redside.

I suppose I don't get access to the Vanguard Redding Rifle, either. Bummer, that thing looks awesome. I suppose there are some reasoning bits, as the Pummel and Stab animations would be tricky with those, but I'd still like it.

Ummmm, their workaround brings you up against another TF issue. If the person that gets the star is a lower level than the original leader, people get exemped down, but the mobs don't. That is a... bad solution. And I know I bugged this other TF problem, so I can't believe they suggested this. Basically, ring around the rosy with your leaders until the mission and levels are where they are supposed to be?

I agree that Peacebringers need a buff, but I don't think you're going in the right direction with a lot of this.

First of all, there are a few iffy premises in your post. According to you, Nova form and Dwarf form aren't really integral, so the solution is... to buff human form? Drop those forms and just focus on human? That seems backwards, and certainly not the direction the devs are going with the AT.

And it really does not follow that if Kheldians were really shapeshifters, they would have all the shapeshifting at level one. No AT is truly what it can be at level one, and they all develop differently. A low level blaster does not run the same as a high level blaster. And most people on the Tanker forums will tell you that Tanks don't really come in to their own until the 20s. Does that mean they're not supposed to be able to take damage well as an AT? No... and that's the premise of that point in your post. Also, something more minor: Kheldians already have slotting issues, so you want to exacerbate that by having ten powers to slot at level one? I don't. Power progression works okay for the forms. For a tri-form, it usually works to focus on a form at a time as you level up. By the time I have Nova to where it's decently slotted, Dwarf comes in, etc. That's pretty decent design, I would say (now if you want to change up some power orders for human form so it can work better at lower levels, that I could get behind, though it is harder to argue with the devs).

You're also making buffs to Dwarf, etc. seem too impossible... Dwarf form was buffed a good bit with the I13 changes, so it obviously can be done, if it is proven that it merits it. I would also agree with Muon that buffing the duration of Build-up for Peacebringers isn't necessarily breaking the cottage rule.

Another huge premise of your post is that Nova and Dwarf form are not integral. Just useful. In all honesty, that is how a shapeshifter AT should work. Usefulness in all areas, and you pick and choose what you want (either in your build, or as you're playing). But there is a leaning in your post that shows you don't really like the forms and rather would go without them, which is iffy as well (I would never talk about Nova and Dwarf as you do, as I use them all the time... they're integral to what I do with my triform). That's because people have different approaches to Kheldians, and they really should all work (human, bi-form, and tri-form). It really seems like the devs are okay with that, too: they improved all three forms with I13. So any changes should be made to work with that in mind.

So I agree that improvements need to be made, but not necessarily a straight buff to Human form for Peacebringers. In fact, I would say you are confusing two issues. 1) Peacebringer powers need some buffs to get them in line with Warshades. 2) The Kheldian AT has some continued wonkiness that needs improving to make them work better. And I don't think a straight buff to Peacebringer Human form will cut it, either. Here's my two cents on improvements for the two issues.

1) For Peacebringers, there are three main powers that need some tweaking (hopefully I'm not forgetting one). Photon Seekers could be okay for what they are if they had lower recharge. I can use them too little for what they do (they are a nice burst of damage, but it is random and uncontrollable, and in a small area).

Pulsar is far weaker than the Warshade's AOE control. It should be a guaranteed Mag 3 (like the Warshade), and maybe have its animation shaved a bit. Mobs still react instantly if you miss, so that's a long time where they can respond to you in melee range if this power misses them.

Build-up is an issue if you're going to use it in a form. I personally think formshifting should be made easier, but barring that, an easy solution would be to make PB's Build-up like Fiery Embrace. Increase the recharge and lengthen its duration (should buff all damage for 20 seconds, though). That's a fairly simple solution to that problem, that doesn't get into the AT issues of formshifting.

2) Which brings us to AT issues. How can we make the forms more usable, and keep human form viable? I suspect that the devs tried to make some things work for this, and the time/tech problem got in the way, but that is just speculation.

First of all, formshifting does allow you to be more adaptable. But current mechanics encourage and inhibit that. Why can we drop instantly to human form, but Nova and Dwarf take a few seconds? This animation time should be lowered dramatically. This alone would solve a lot of quibbles, I think (might not even need to change build up for Peacebringers if it is done).

Also, there are a lot of human form powers that being in the forms excludes you from. I would suggest that more of these powers should carry over to the forms, which would allow for the forms to be more viable, and for human form to work better as well. There's obviously a balance point in there somewhere, as things can't get too overpowered. But being able to use the human form heals in either Nova or Dwarf form would make them be more viable, but without making them overpowered, I think. Depending on the balance point, you might be able to give human form minor mez protection, because the forms would be able to do more things as well.

Though we might have to lower some capabilities for human form to get the mez protection. I don't know if this would come from the shields, or what.

I do wish we knew what the devs were trying to make happen and where they are at with it. Because I do think Kheldians need some adjustments, and Peacebringers need some powers tweaked. But we don't know what the devs thing, what they're working on, and what's on the back burner until after Going Rogue (as I don't realistically think any improvements to the AT overall are going to happen before this... maybe some Kheld powers, though).

I went on for forever, sorry. But it's a worthwhile discussion.

Yup, it was fun. Kind of annoying that the first one failed, but it worked out okay since we picked up the GM in Cap right afterwards as well. I picked up all the ToT badges except for the last two costume ones (I think I'm at 22... they and the Halloween salvage just do not want to fall for my villain) as well.

We moved on to trying to get Jack in Irons to spawn in Sharkhead (working with about 2 other teams... there were a lot of villains on last night), but we kept getting Eochai instead. I think I picked up 14 easy merits doing it, which was nice, but I'm still annoyed that I didn't get Jack. Oh well.

Thanks for putting things together, it was fun.

That's what I meant. If we start with a solid crew, picking up a few more will get the job done. My big banner attempt had one team formed pretty much when the enemies started spawning (so we had two at each banner). It took far too long for other people to join in, however. By the time we got the numbers, it wasn't enough: we ran out of time when the last banner was 95% dead.

And with that, I started up the team from scratch when the event was announced in Cap. If we start out with more, I think we can do it, especially if we draw in more from the channels, etc.

So, Bill... while you're playing through, you are limiting yourself to Human form only? That seems to be the case, and I want to be sure, as that really would explain how you can possibly say "horse manure," when I say I'm having an easy time in the early levels with my recent Warshade. Nova form really does make a difference, and it is part of the AT... it used to be the common advice to people going human only was to take Nova until somewhere in the 20s, as you would then have enough human form powers and slots to make it worthwhile. That seems to still be the case (I'm going Human/Dwarf with my Warshade, but I'm not going for that setup until later in the 20s). I would say going human form only for the lower levels is rather masochistic, and you're not proving much by saying it is difficult to be human form only in early levels, as you are ignoring a big part of how the AT was designed. Nova form DOES make things a lot easier in the early levels.

Interestingly, human form is stronger since the I13 changes, too, so buffing it even further requires showing Castle that he did not do enough with that (I don't know how much work he put into it, but he did have enough data to say that mez protection in human form would make it too powerful).

I think the problem that you, Obsidian, me, and most other Kheld players pick at in these forums is that there are discrepancies in how the AT works. I can honestly say if BAB and Castle were the ones who designed Kheldians from the ground up, they would work much better (Dual Blades, Willpower, VEATs, and Shields show that very well, to my mind). Form shifting does take too long, and there are far too many exclusionary powers between the forms (I13 fixes helped some with this... the inherent not working in the forms was an odd choice).

Because Warshades have long duration powers that work between the forms, they fit what the AT is supposed to do much better (i.e., a formshifter that can adapt to the situation). Build up for Peacebringers is always an issue, as switching to a form after eats into your time that you can use the power. It would make much more sense if the power could be used while in a form (same thing for clicks like Dull Pain, etc.), or at least had a longer duration. But that still brings back to the issue that formshifting takes longer than it should.

I don't think any of those changes would really overpower a formshifted Kheldian, either. Scrappers, etc. can hit Dull Pain without having to formshift first (or take the risk of being in human midfight). Same thing with Build Up and other powers (you could pick and choose what powers work in forms, maybe... but that might be hard from a tech standpoint, I don't know... but I don't know how overpowered it would be to allow things like Eclipse to be used while in a form... the attacks would be, but I don't know about the others). Anyway, there are other Peacebringer powers that are clearly not working as well as Warshades, and that is an issue, but probably above and beyond what I need to say.

I really would love to talk to Castle and co. about some things, as I often wonder about their approach. Do they honestly think Fiery Aura and Kheldians are fine after their tweaks in I13, or did that just get them to "good enough for now?" I know how any work requires letting go at some point and saying "good enough," (especially with the limited time they have to work on everything) but I do want to know if they think more work should be done at some point.

It sounds from Obsidian's post like they do have things they want to do, but ran into issues that would take too long to fix, so we have Khelds as they are now. Better than pre-I13, but probably with some more fixes needed. To wrap up, it would be far better to work as a group with the spirit of what the devs are trying to do (making Khelds work as formshifters), and argue that another look and more work sooner rather than later is merited.

Hope that all made sense. I don't think Kheldians are all a bed of roses or anything, as there are things I could pick out easily that would make them more appealing and work right. Same thing for Fiery Aura (but to a lesser extent than Kheldians). Kheldians are playable right now, but could use some work, to boil it down.

Yeah, it just seems kind of weird how big the difference is, since presumably the same people worked on the various arcs.

Bill, yeah, it is quite noticeable how different it is... I don't think the quants or voids my Warshade has faced feel any different than other mobs. The voids resist my damage a bit more, but that's it. Not hard to beat them at all. Whereas my PB at the start... well, it was insp up, hit build up, and pray I killed him before he killed me. Usually worked. It was easier the higher I got, but it was a bit iffy from about 5-12 or so.

I have a Peacebringer at level 40 that I rolled a LONG time ago... maybe 2 years ago (I have extreme altitis, and he's been played as much as most of my other characters... hence his only being 40 still). Anyway, I remember that it was a big deal when a Void showed up in a mission. I was even warned that I should avoid him because of how strong he was, etc.

I rolled a Warshade finally a month or so back, and no mentions of Voids have been made in the first two arcs (he's level 12 now)... yet Voids HAVE shown up in his missions. What's up with that? Just inconsistent writing, by not noting they would be there and to look out for them (or did I miss it somehow?)? I know these story arcs have different focuses, etc. (and I like it), it just seems odd that the PB arc would note them so strongly, and the WS one just ignores them entirely.