Gaidin
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:This.Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
For the record, however, the chain I used for BS was later in the thread shown to be a bad choice. BS DPS can certainly get higher than I reported, but it still won't get up there with the big boys.
It's not really a big deal. A BS/Shielder saturating AAO is going to push higher than my claws/sr will ever be able to touch.
BS/ doesn't suck at DPS, but it's not the best either. My wife's BS/Invul does 158 DPS using the HS>Hack>Disembowel>Hack>(gap) chain. Achille's Heel -Res and 5 Hecatomb(minus Dmg) in Hack, 6 set ToD in Disembowel, and 5 Armageddon set(minus Dmg) in HS, +8% global damage buff.
A BS/Shielder would have much better numbers with the same slotting, but a Shielder with Fire/ or DM/ is going to still beat BS/ numbers.
That being said, BS/ has a CRUNCH-factor that belies it's DPS.
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Gratz! Now go get more!
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Fire/SR.
For leveling, get Hasten at 6 and Quickness right after Stamina. Slot attacks for recharge over endurance. This allows for a very fast pace Blapper experience with the benefits of Mez protection and some Defense. You can pop purple insp to get softcap when you need it, allowing you to take on bosses and large groups with ease.
The ride from 1 to 50 on my Fire/SR was extremely quick, very fun, and fast paced. You'll want a respec after leveling. You can solo AVs without spending a ton of inf, and you will want to get Aid Self, especially if you're going for no temps/no insp.
My issue with Kat/WP is that softcapping non-positionals can get expensive. Kat/Regen is harder to recommend, as it really shines with +recharge, which is expensive. -
Quote:This.Originally Posted by Werner
Another vote for DM/SR. Still, Fire/SR might be a better general purpose build due to better AoE, so it may depend on how focused you want to be. Also, Fire/SR takes less recharge, and recharge is expensive, so budget may play a role as well.
My Fire/SR was my first AV-soloer oriented toon and I didn't have a ton of cash to start with. If inf is tight, go Fire/SR. If you have some fundage for +recharge, then go DM/SR, as DM's top attack chain includes SL so you can skip Aid Self and do more DPS. -
Quote:I am going for a DPS over survivability route with my new and shiney Kat/ElA. He's level 4, so young. After seeing some builds from others and tooling around with it, I don't see it being as survivable as Kat/DA, but it should be fun and not have end issues to worry about.Originally Posted by Werner
I suspect you'll see more of Electric Armor over the next few months. Even the soft-cap crowd can play, and probably with a practical build if they go with Katana or Broad Sword. I want to make a Katana/Electric myself, though I already have a couple things I'm leveling, so I'm not sure if I want another one at the moment.
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Quote:Only a few minor adjustments:Originally Posted by SpikyShane
Here's the build with the changes you suggested. How's it look? I still have perma-hasten which is sexy
- Swapped out the Heca: Damage in Smite for a Clouded Senses proc for more DPS
- Swapped out the Armageddon: Damage in SD for the Armageddon proc for more DPS
- since SL doesn't need any Recharge enhancement to run the attack chain, swapped out the Heal/End/Rech IO for a third Golgi for better End and Heal numbers
- swapped when you take Conserve Power and Weave - moved the 5 Red Fortunes from Lucky to Weave and put the three Gift of the Ancients in Lucky - this will give you slightly better end usage numbers and pad Melee and Ranged Def a bit more.
Everything else looks good.
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Quote:Meh. You're usually accurate, so I'm not too worried. Besides, I was so torn on which to make that I'm actually fine with leveling both. One of them being a Brute is good, as I've not played much redside except a Fire/Rad Corrupter which is stalled at 27. I'll eventually get both to 50 and I can see which has the upper hand.Originally Posted by Werner
Well... they look very similar on my rather cursory analysis, perhaps a 5% difference or less. I THINK Katana can come out ahead with the right build, but I haven't proved it, and I wouldn't bet the farm on it. In particular, I'd hate for you to start over with another build, only to find out later that I was wrong.
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Quote:That is terrible. I hope he gets banned. There is no excuse for such behaviour.Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
Werner, I was willing to let this go, but it's gotten to the point that he's now stalking me across the forums. Note the tags on each thread. Some of which I haven't even posted in.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=224008
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=223964
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=223894
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=223909
I suspect there are probably more.
This is a sign of a very mature poster obviously. He's been reported to the mods and I've washed my hands of the whole thing.
edit: I sent a message to the moderators. -
Quote:I Thought the 2-3x FU stacking would have made more of a difference than that. Thanks for the number crunching Werner. I am gloing to roll a Kat/Elec, but keep the claws/elec brute for concept fun. *wanders off pondering Kat/Elec character concept...*Originally Posted by Werner
Actually, Katana's top DPS is higher than Claws, but I figured the Follow Up stacking on Lightning Field would probably make up the difference and pull it slightly ahead.
Looking more closely, using my old Super Reflexes DPS template, Katana is pumping out 242 DPS while Claws languishes at 226 DPS. However, a different chain with 225 DPS keeps Follow Up triple stacked maybe 2/3 of the time. Let's say triple-stacked full time for our first pass, so 3*37.5%*12.5 = 14 damage per tick added by Follow Up, and ticks every 2 seconds. Nope, not going to be enough to make up the difference, and that was exaggerating the buff. Plus Katana has more -resistance going on. So on closer examination, I'm going to change my mind and say that I would expect Katana/Electric to be capable of higher top end DPS. -
Quote:I have a FM/SR at 50 and fully IOd and it was a blast to play from 1-50. Super fast recharging attacks with Hasten and Quickness coupled with the excellent damage from FM/ made for a very Blaster-like experience, but with some Def and Mez protection for the ride. Things died very quickly, so it made the early squishiness of /SR less of an issue.Originally Posted by Werner
One completely different possibility would be Fiery Melee/Super Reflexes. For all that the forums say that it's a great AV soloer on a budget, I have the feeling that not very many people actually play them. Kind of a shame, because it's a great AV soloer on a budget. I think it depends on how much you're willing to work for the rewards. Katana/Electric should be just as good, but will require more investment in both time and influence.
Me, I'd go Katana/Electric. I'm strongly considering starting one, actually. I probably won't turn it into an AV soloer, since I've got several of those already, and two are Katana, but I think it would be a fun toon to play.
At 50, it is capable of AV no temps/no insp soloing with no issue with Aid Self for when the RNG hates you. It does ~189 DPS with the Incin>GFS>Cremate chain and all around it's a solid toon. Also, while it is possible to build one cheaply and still solo AVs/Pylons, I put a lot more influence into it to make it as tough as I could... I will admit that I wish I had rolled a FM/Shield instead due to the DPS increase from AAO alone, not even considering the added HP and resists.
Kat/Elec lost in my debate to roll it or a Claws/Elec due to concept reasons. I came up with a Claws/ concept I liked a ton and rolled it as a Brute. I may still do a Kat/Elec at some point, as I think it would be a lot of fun to level. My goal for either build was to make it a damage monster, and sacrifice survivability to do so. I don't really know if Kat's top DPS chain + LF is more DPS than Claws/ top chain + Double FU LF, so I'm not sure if I made the right choice from a min/max standpoint.
If I had to pick a '"different" AV soloer, I'd probably try Kat/Elec or possibly Kat/DA. I know Werner and a few others have made Kat/DA more well known forum-wise, but it's still fairly uncommon in-game. -
Quote:Yes, I didn't take Leaping, I took the Fighting Pool. He gains far more by taking Weave and being able to slot the Steadfast in Tough than he would with just Combat Jumping. The S/L resists are always good for upping survivability too. He still has Aid Self in the build I posted, which is slotted better than his original build.Originally Posted by Elegost
This would require that he takes tough. Which means he'd have to drop leaping, since he wants medicine.
aside from that, jump kick instead of combat jumping? Not worth it. CJ is practically 3 free defense. Sting of the wasp is < gambler's cut, and if you build for some defense, then you can drop DA for flashing steel as well.
Also, I did take GC instead of SotW in the build, but neglected to say why. Thanks, Elegost. Also note that Fashing Steel is taken and slotted and not Jump Kick.
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Since you're 50, why not invest a very small amount into as little as 4 inexpensive IO sets and one Steadfast Protection +3% Def IO, which would allow you to be soft-capped to all positions? Bring soft-capped will increase your survivability immensely, as well as allow you to drop DA - which will increase your DPS significantly. I put this together real quick to demonstrate:
2 Multi Strike sets, 1 Gaussian's set, 1 Mako set, 1 Steadfast Prot IO: 46.1% Def to all positions.
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Quote:It will be nerfed, but Castle has not stated when. It will be awhile due to more preassing issues such as GR. Currently, teh damage is way higher than it should be, and the full damage is applied to the whole 20' radius, which is not what was intended. Here's the quote from Castle about it:Originally Posted by Borris_Black
EDIT : Didn't read that last post, is shield charge up for the dreaded nerf bat or speculation ?
Quote:Originally Posted by Castle
Good catch. I was looking at the original power, as I designed it, rather than the reworked version that was done later. For scrappers, it is scale 3.6 on the Minion_Pet table, which is a far cry from the scale 1.4 on the Minion_Pet table I originally designed for it. I vaguely remember someone (Synapse? Sunstorm? I'd have to dig into check in notes to see) asking me if they could update it to include AT Mods in the damage scales and saying yes.
Hmm...yeah, ok. I can very easily see what happened here.
Shield Charge when released was set for a scale 1.7 damage to all targets within 20' of impact, with 0.7 scale bonus within 3' of impact. When the change to allow AT scaling was made, the bonus damage was rolled into the overall damage, for a scale of 2.4 to all targets in a 20' radius. At the same time, instead of have Brutes getting a mod of 0.75 applied, they were treated as the base.
So, instead of:
Brutes 3' scale 1.8, 20' scale 1.275
Tankers 3' scale 2.04, 20' 1.445
Scrappers 3' scale 2.7, 20' scale 1.9125
We get:
Brute 20' scale 2.4
Tanker 20' scale 2.712
Scrapper 20' scale 3.6
That REALLY sucks. -
Quote:I haven't looked in-game, but Mids shows that the DDR in GC is not enhanceable with IOs or HOs.Originally Posted by Kractis_Sky
My /SD is currently capped (using HOs in BA and AD and run GC), but I've done so in a way that doesnt rely on putting any +def in GC because I thought it was not possible *anymore* to modify it (since i17). There is a good chance I'm wrong.
I use GC to get my DDR high enough to prevent cascading defense failure vs. Cims, Arachnos, and def debuffing AVs. Other than that, it's a great LotG +Recharge mule.
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Quote:Precisely. Endurance sustainability is key for no insp/no temps AV soloing, and without CP and PP it's just not possible to achieve on most high-end, high-recharge, softcapped /Shield builds. It might be possible using DC on DM/ builds, but I prefer to have SM for the added AoE, plus depending on using DC for endurance sustainability would reduce DPS.Originally Posted by BrokenPrey
Pretty much this. Shield Charge is up for every spawn, while I would love to have Fireball I didn't really build this toon to take down groups fast it was more to take down AV fast. So it was easy for me not to take fireball and take Conserve Power and Physical Perfection. Those two powers will help me more in an AV fight.
I might make a much less expensive second build with Fireball, but I've found that with saturated SD + AAO + SC everything dies instantly except Bosses, which are mopped up with a few attacks. Granted, once SC is nerfed this will change quite a lot and Fireball will become much more important for AoE damage than it currently is. -
Quote:I've been having a similar quandary about making a Claws/Elec Scrapper or Brute. Brute /Elec has the advantage of a higher resist cap and better resist base numbers, which is very tempting for an all-resist secondary. LF also has a Taunt factor, which would eliminate mobs running.Originally Posted by Nihilii
I think you'll do better damage on a scrapper.
Even just using BF -> AV, a brute needs 85-90% Fury to keep up. With the BF -> AS -> SS -> AS chain, the scrapper leaves the brute far behind.
I haven't bothered to check BF -> AS -> SS -> Gloom, but I doubt it'd be that great. Gloom does more damage than the second AS, but forces redraw and can't take a -res proc. It costs a sizeable amount of endurance as well, and the more you have to use Power Sink the less DPS you're going to deal.
That said, the above paragraph is mostly guesswork based on experience, and not actual experience.
My main issue is that Brute Claws/ has higher end cost and slower recharge, so I'm sure it would fall a good bit behind DPS-wise of a scrapper version. I looked at "The Results Are In..." thread, but Brute Claws/ isn't shown, so I don't know how much of a difference it would actually be.
DB/ doesn't have such a discrepancy for the recharge or end cost, and per "The Results Are In..", Scrapper DB comes in at 169.7 DPS/4.42, and Brute has 168.3 DPS/4.42 EPS. Both use BF>AS>SS>AS chain. Brute is calculated with 90% Fury, which on pylon runs or AV fights would be easily attainable. It's on teams where the difference would be most easily seen due to the shorter sustained combat, resulting in lower Fury.
Nihilli, any thoughts on Brute Claws attack chains and DPS? -
Quote:I can see DM/Elec being pretty beastly for damage as, with enough recharge, LF is going to be boosted by SD a majority of the time. Add that to DM's optimal attack chain and let the fun ensue. Should be a fun combo.Originally Posted by iBones
Alright guys, well, for the most part, Iv'e been messing around with DM/Elec and a Kat/Elec, and I have to say that the dm/elec is extremely fun and survivable.
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Quote:I'm with you on this regarding a toon built for soloing a pylon, including my own.Originally Posted by Chaos_String
That's the benchmark I'm usually after: DPS output in a solo combat situation.
That's my point. You would be using the pylon for what it does best - testing DPS. Werner didn't state "solo a pylon", he said,Quote:Originally Posted by Chaos_String
Edit: with a tank taunting, you're not necessarily measuring a build whose goal is DPS first and in which survivability is secondary. You're testing the build in a situation where DPS is everything and survivability is irrelevant. This is why I don't really find such a test useful. I want my scrappers to function not as damage-dealing primadonnas, but as self-sufficient units that can take on a variety of tasks with a minimum of support.
My counterpoint was in response to measuring DPS output, not specifically soloing AVs/pylons.Quote:Originally Posted by Werner
"Yeah, I wouldn't personally want to test DPS on a pylon with a tank taunting. "
Thus far, all of my scrappers are built to solo pylons/AVs and since their design goal was to have that level of survivability while dealing damage, then my DPS numbers should reflect time spent healing/clicking mez protection/etc.
However, if I wanted to test any archtype's build for damage output that doesn't focus on that level of survivability but rather depends on teammates/insp usage for such support, then I see no reason why a Tank taunting wouldn't be acceptable as a way to measure DPS output under control conditions.
An example would be a blaster trying to determine what damage he contributes to an AV fight. The blaster in question doesn't have capped def to Ranged, so he wouldn't survive against a pylon to check his DPS, but his team Tank/Defender controls aggro/buffs & heals him so that he can focus on damage. Having a Tank taunt the pylon wouldn't be much different than an AV fight on a team with a competent Tank/Defender. -
Quote:I have mixed feelings on this. If your build goal is to see how much DPS you can crank out and make survivability secondary, then I can see why a Tank's taunting would be both needed and acceptable given your goals. If you're someone who teams with a Tank and/or a dedicated healer and wants to see what kind of DPS you're contributing when you don't have aggro/need to use healing clicks, then I would accept usage of a taunting tank as acceptable as well.Originally Posted by Werner
Yeah, I wouldn't personally want to test DPS on a pylon with a tank taunting. I don't want to make the situation any more unrealistic than it already is. Staying alive is a realistic part of any scenario where applying your DPS comes into play, most specifically Archvillains. Most of them hit harder than a pylon, I'd say, so you want to at least be able to survive a pylon on your own. On the other hand, I don't see a realistic way to include healing into DPS calculations, so if I were trying to confirm my understanding of DPS, I'd want to do it with repeated runs with a taunting tank, or at least have a character that didn't need any active healing.
The first example is something I'd be ok with if I decide to make the Claws/Elec scrapper who would be built for maximum damage output first and survivability second, as I'd use it when teaming and not for AV soloing. This is if I don't roll the Kat/Elec, which is the other build I've been pondering per the "Best EA Primary" thread. I'm trying to nail down a character concept for either claws/ or kat/ before deciding.
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Quote:Interesting, I thought the margin between them would be wider. I'd still prefer Kat/ or DB/ over MA/ as the -Res procs will also help your teammates damage output. Yes, I know you don't know what this "teaming" thing is Werner. hehehe.Originally Posted by Werner
Taking massive recharge into account plus all procs in actual builds, I calculated these numbers:
243 DPS Katana/SR at +250% recharge
238 DPS Dual Blades/SR at +279% recharge
216 DPS Martial Arts/SR at +225% recharge
(Not endurance sustainable.)
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Quote:Of these, I'd go FM/Invul for what you stated.Originally Posted by 2Sly4U
out of these what would be best combo for solo/group i spend most of my time soloing and working in some groups
mains-
dark
fire
electric
secondaries-
invul
regen
not sure about other secondaries lol
I'm throwing /Regen out of the mix as per Cyber-naut's logic. /Regen is very active and requires good timing to make it as survivable as Invuln/ is inherently. /Regen also scales with +Recharge, which is expensive, and the use of it's various clicks lowers DPS. If you're new to scrapping, I'd go with a less active secondary for your first scrapper so that you can become one with your 'Scrapperlock'.
DM/Invul is going to be the most survivable due to Siphon Life and excellent at ST damage, but lacking in AoE, which is more valuable when teaming.
Elec/ is very AoE-centered and lacks in ST damage compared with DM/ or FM/, which you may find frustrating when soloing.
FM/ gets Fire Sword Circle, which is excellent AoE, and does excellent ST damage as well even without needing a ton of +Recharge. There's no mitigation in FM/, but Invuln/ does well at surviving, especially when you add in Tough and bulk up some Defense with pool powers and set bonuses. -
Quote:This...with a caveat. At low +recharge, MA/ has higher DPS that Kat/ and DB/...before procs.Originally Posted by BrokenPrey
That is in the results are in 2 where he had most attacks slotted with 1acc/1end-red/1rec-red/3dam. That is not a lot of rechagre so MA is better but when you start to put recharge in, Dual Blades and Katana blow pass MA and never looks back.
"The Results Are In...", the first thread, takes a flat 250% recharge into account for all attacks to create the highest DPS chains and, even considering this, MA/ does come in close to both Kat/ and DB/... but that is before you factor in the Achilles Heel -Res proc, which MA/ can't use. The gap becomes even wider if you include the FotG -Res proc.
Also, in response to Fire Wyvern: I never stated that Elec/ was either better or worse than MA/ for ST damage, though I believe that MA/ would have a ST DPS advantage which would be off-set by the fact that Elec's damage is far less resisted.
I was making an inference that since he was fine with a primary that both deals all lethal damage and cannot slot either -Res proc that he would likely be tolerant of Elec/'s lower ST damage when compared with Kat/ and DB/, though I had made the point that I was not as tolerant as per my described experiences and preferences.
As a side note, I believe Elec/ best ST chain should be CI>CB>JL>CB. It can be improved if you take Fireblast and use it in place of CB. I don't recall the actual DPS numbers at the moment. -
Quote:ha! So very true.Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Topic should be change to multi-billionaire boys/girls club ...
@ Sant and Broken Prey: good builds, but not having the Heca and Clouded Senses procs in Smite makes me like mine better. Ok... I admit to being jealous of you both having an actual travel power.
@ Broken Prey: your build has 85.8% DDR. Do you find you have any difficulties with Romans, or AVs that Defbuff?
@ Sant: your AD has 2 Membranes and 1 Enzyme. I see that this will get your DDR above 95% (98.5%), but that it gives you a larger gap where AD isn't double-stacked. Any issues with that?
Mine's at 93.9% DDR with 3 Membranes for comparison and I'm using the build I posted previously that can exemp to 27 and remain softcapped.
Also, I finished getting all the IOs for my build and once I ding 50 (hopesfully very shortly) I can slot my purples and give it a whirl on a pylon. -
Quote:I was wondering the same thing. All other attacks have 95%+ Acc vs. +4 without SD, but SD has 89.6% Acc. I was wondering how much that would affect DPS.Originally Posted by Santorican
How is your accuracy with Soul Drain? I've seen quiet a few people run GSFC in it with fear if it not being able to hit +3s and +4s with 95% acc... Whats your experience?
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Quote:The reason it's a rare combo on the forums is because a great majority of us forumites are into AV and Pylon soloing, which /Elec is not a great choice for due to it's lack of survivability. I've been debating starting a Claws/Elec simply because I think it would be a damage monster, but the lack of survivability is what has been stopping me.Originally Posted by iBones
The reason I'm playing a dm/elec, is because of how rare it is. Several weeks ago, I mentioned the combination on the forums, and why I felt it would be a great scrapper. I still have seen maybe one other of it's kind.