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The effects would be customized to the set, but with rules governing the basic strength and magnitudes of effects so there would be no massive amount of individual balancing involved. A system like this should be designed with a set of implementation rules first, and then applied to the powersets so things don't end up being haphazard.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Arcanaville, something like this would have to be very set specific, though, don't you tink?
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There was some discussion a few months ago about what the effects could be. Knockup for Energy, Sleep for Electric, etc. I also mentioned there were opportunities here to look at new ways to use debuffs as pseudo-mez. For example, drain has all sorts of problems in this game: its a bit too binary and the way critters use endurance make it often problematic. But an effect that isn't used in the game much is -MaxEnd. Debuffing the maxend of critters would mean that not only would their recovery drop, but they would burn up their endurance much quicker while attacking. In effect, we can limit the number of attacks they can use before they are incapable of attacking. Consider what a 10 second -80% maxend debuff would do to an Lt. They'd be down to only 30 end for 10 seconds, which means they would be able to attack maybe a couple of times and then be done. And that's *before* stacking other drain on them. Electric Blasters could make extremely good use of -maxend: it could be tailored to be their "pseudomez" particularly in combination with their intrinsic drains.
Or how about going the other way around. Suppose we (de)buff EndDiscount. All the critter's powers would then cost more endurance. If we triple end costs with a +200% endurance discount that would mean light attacks that had low costs to begin with could still be used, but while that effect was up its possible we could basically *shut off* all higher attacks on that critter for a short time. That could also be interesting.
There are a lot of opportunities here to make this work better than it has worked in the past.
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The goal is to be more effective. The most critical element of that is increased survivability. I believe that is something that can be objectively, quantifiably supported.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
(I don't think the goal here is to get more damage but to get more survivability.)
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But I believe the other deficit blasters have is that because the archetype hasn't been "protected" by the devs like the other archetypes have, Blasters haven't even been given the preeminent spot in getting the best, most interesting, and unambiguously highest levels of damage. We can't solve their survivability problems with straight damage buffs, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make blaster damage as strong as balance will allow, more interesting than it is now, and more effective overall.
I've said it many times, but no matter how many times I say it its still an amazing fact to me. Blasters do not have the highest melee damage modifier, they don't unambiguously have the highest ranged damage modifier, they don't have the most self damage buffs or the strongest self damage buffs, they arguably have only the second highest damage buffing inherent. Blaster ranged DPA is also not the highest (in fact, its embarrassing compared to melee offensive sets). People talk about how blasters have the best AoE, but that's a subjective statement. Objectively, the average blaster primary has less AoEs than the average melee offfensive set. And arguments that the ranged AoEs are "better" usually fail to account for the fact that melee archetypes engage targets in melee range and thus the way they leverage AoEs is different, invalidating much of those arguments.
It shouldn't be this hard to demonstrate Blaster offensive superiority: with no other powersets besides attack sets, their offensive superiority should be blatantly obvious. But instead, by every metric that can be examined directly, Blasters are *not* designed to be obviously superior. Not in damage modifiers, not in DPA, not in AoE, not in self buffs. It would be an *amazing* situation if the devs designed blasters to have less AoE attacks, lower DPA, lower damage self buffs, and lower damage modifiers and yet have them consistently end up dealing *significantly* more damage than all other archetypes. That would be a neat trick.
Regardless of whether Blasters *deal* more damage, they should blatantly obviously *appear* to be designed to deal more damage, and they don't. Its obvious they don't have control sets or buff/debuff sets or personal defense sets. It should be obvious that what's left is significantly superior to everyone else's offensive options. And they are not.
I don't need to have blasters deal massively more points of damage. But they should have far more interesting damage dealing tools than they do now. And if some of them increase blaster damage in the process, I don't think that's a problem if its only a moderate amount. When Dominators have 0.95 ranged and 1.05 melee modifiers, and Scrappers have a 1.125 modifier that they use for both melee and ranged attacks and have criticals on top of that, I don't think its mathematically possible that the current Blaster damage levels at 1.125 ranged modifier and 1.0 melee modifier could be at or near the maximum allowable.
Another way of putting this is this: I think Blasters deserve more whoa. When people roll controllers there's lots of opportunity to go "whoa, that's a lot of control." The same thing happens for scrappers, tankers, brutes, masterminds, dominators, and now even stalkers. But Blasters don't really do anything other archetypes can't: they don't have specifically unique offense, and all the get is offense. They need more offense that makes players go "whoa: I didn't know blasters could do that." In my opinion, other archetypes have more whoa.
Whatever happens to them, I told the devs that one of the things I'm going to be judging blaster improvements on is this metric: the change should make me go "whoa." If its just behind the scenes numerical tweaks and some nifty but unimpressive even if useful gizmos, I will consider the changes incomplete. I think this is as much of the problem as anything else. Its not just a matter of making the numbers work out. That is a necessary but not sufficient requirement. Blasters also need to be fun to play, and part of that is making sure they have enough whoa.
Basically, blaster changes need to do this:
When the rest of the team looks like that when you're on your blaster, that's a success.
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Fair enough, although I still don't think I agree with the ST bonus damage under that road-map either. I certainly would not be amazed about a blaster getting a damage proc against critters that have no one standing by them.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
When the rest of the team looks like that when you're on your blaster, that's a success.
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Tossing spaghetti to the wall this crossed my mind reading your post:
What about a mechanic that not only adds splash mez to all single target blaster attacks with a low hit cap (5?) but also if every single attack did splash or piercing damage?
I note piercing simply because it is not very thematic for every bullet and arrow to detonate on impact.
Actually... I guess the "splash mez" and splash damage both would have to be on the same area schema (cone or target aoe.)
When Dual Pistol came out this was not possible, but I noticed playing Titan Weapon Tank that now the target of a cone can have special effects applied only to it (Bruise.)
So...
Archery, Assault Rifle and Dual Pistols (perhaps also Beam Rifle) can be piercing based while the rest are all splash on hit... bonus points if all affected foes by the splash effects get a big text pop-pup like Pierce or Detonation respectively.
That may, from a third point of view, be a bit more "WOA what you just did there?!"
BTW, may have already been brought up loads of times but this is my personal wishlist for other blaster nuisances (imho):
- I'd love to have all ranged attacks range normalized with perhaps a bonus over other ATs (all but snipes that is.) Currently having any attack have a short range sort of simply limits all my attack's to that minimum.
- I would love to see a much shorter animation time for snipes (all ATs) (it's OK to retain interrupt, BTW can we have interrupted attacks just do partial damage now?)
- Remove nuke's crashes and lower recharge to be in line with Rain of Arrows (All ATs)
- Turn ST immobs AoE (5 max)
- Make all armors in the blaster Ancillary Powersets add mez protection (hold/stun/immob.)
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Ill let you know once I figure out why im supposed to be so horribly horribly broken...
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Originally Posted by Dz131
Well has it?
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The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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I agree with these posts except for the AoE immobilize.. thats a sure fire way to get a blaster killed.. |
Originally Posted by Starsman
Fair enough, although I still don't think I agree with the ST bonus damage under that road-map either. I certainly would not be amazed about a blaster getting a damage proc against critters that have no one standing by them.
Tossing spaghetti to the wall this crossed my mind reading your post: What about a mechanic that not only adds splash mez to all single target blaster attacks with a low hit cap (5?) but also if every single attack did splash or piercing damage? I note piercing simply because it is not very thematic for every bullet and arrow to detonate on impact. Actually... I guess the "splash mez" and splash damage both would have to be on the same area schema (cone or target aoe.) When Dual Pistol came out this was not possible, but I noticed playing Titan Weapon Tank that now the target of a cone can have special effects applied only to it (Bruise.) So... Archery, Assault Rifle and Dual Pistols (perhaps also Beam Rifle) can be piercing based while the rest are all splash on hit... bonus points if all affected foes by the splash effects get a big text pop-pup like Pierce or Detonation respectively. That may, from a third point of view, be a bit more "WOA what you just did there?!" BTW, may have already been brought up loads of times but this is my personal wishlist for other blaster nuisances (imho):
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Also Blasters are never going to get mez protection.. sorry... 8 years it aint happened yet.. not gonna happen.. if Blasters get it then EVERY squishie is going to want it and at that point you might as well remove mez from the game.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Ok first of all I am not here to ruffle anyone's feathers (ok maybe a little)...
Let me just say that my first toon 6 years ago was a fire/fire blaster and I play her every day still. She has NO problem with survivability against anyone. That being said, yes I do die sometimes. Playing her is the most fun I have with any toon!
I think what most of you critics need to look at with the blaster set is the player controlling them. I have come to believe that this game is not only based on your power choices, slotting, and enhancement choices but also the player behind the toon.
I started this game solo'ing my toon up to 50 for the most part. I like to team and find that my fire/fire blaster brings a ton of damage to any team that I join and that I am an important part of the team.
My fire/fire blaster can do speed runs of every tf (and not die), she can also do most trials and not die, my blaster has duo'd or solo'd most tf (MO style) and had a great time doing it!
I am not trying to toot my own horn here because there are much better player than me around but all I am saying is that sometimes people who complain about AT's need to realize that maybe just maybe it is not the toon but the player that makes the toon weak. You need to find the AT that works for you and obviously for you extreme critics of an AT that a lot of people love blasters are not for you!
That is all...Have a nice day 
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How would that be? An AoE immob would keep more foes at range. It's not like the ST immob does not alert others in the spawn.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
I agree with these posts except for the AoE immobilize.. thats a sure fire way to get a blaster killed..
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| Also Blasters are never going to get mez protection.. sorry... 8 years it aint happened yet.. not gonna happen.. if Blasters get it then EVERY squishie is going to want it and at that point you might as well remove mez from the game. |
But on a serious note, for one I'm not saying it has to be huge Mez Protection. Can be something small, like what you get from Acrobatics for KB prot without any resistance. For seconds: blasters once nearly got mez prot with one epic but i got removed over concerns that it would be the only way to get mez prot as a blaster, and therefore it would be a requirement to get that specific ancillary set over all others. Don't remember the exact power, just recall Arcanaville talking about it.
Insightful as always, Arcanaville.
Here are some things that might add the "whoa" factor:
1. Blaster snipes (and only Blaster snipes) should defeat an even con minion without BU or Aim. Add the same Critical percentages that Scrappers have, increasing with rank so there is a small chance of doing double damage on a Lt or Boss. I'm thinking "Act of Valor" sniper shots - that guy was amazing.
2. All nukes ranged and crashless. Adjust damage accordingly, but the suicide run or need to be invisible to be effective has GOT to go.
3. Clear, obvious increase in ranged damage. Right now its hard to tell the difference between my Corruptors and Blasters in terms of ranged damage. Add Assault and the difference is even less because the Blaster bonus from Assault is so small. As I review this, adding Scrapper Critical chances to Blaster ranged attacks (maybe at half the percentage chance) might really add to the AT.
4. Better secondaries. How about Trick Arrow that is single target or small group debuff? An uninterrupted heal in Devices? Something where attacking contributes to the team and the support ATs don't have to babysit you.
My personal view is that the movie version of Iron Man is the best definition for Blasters as the game is today.
I like your test of how the revision will be complete. I'm less of a numbers person, but here's my test: if a Scrapper can jump into a given group, beat them from melee and emerge ready for the next group, I want to be able to do the exact same thing from range.
Ideally, the tank will die precisely as everyone else starts fighting, allowing aggro to be spread evenly among the blaster. -seebs, "How to Suck at CoH/CoV" Guide
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Based on my discussions with the devs, I believe there exists a possibility that a "whoa" is coming for blasters. Not the one I might have made, and not one everyone would agree is a whoa, and only a medium sized whoa and not a mega whoa, and not in the immediate future, but a whoa nevertheless.|
Originally Posted by Stealth_Bomber
Here are some things that might add the "whoa" factor:
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Of course, as a complete nobody with no authority to make forward-looking statements, no one should presume anything I say accurately represents future dev plans nor a guarantee that any prediction will come to pass in any reasonable timeframe. The secretary has disavowed me. Its also possible I have a serious head injury and hackers have taken over my account and this is improperly translated from its original Minoan Linear A. Offer void in Delaware.
The devs have been paying attention, though, and they haven't forgotten about us. Of that I can say with certainty.
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I hate to burst your bubble but Iron Man is not a blaster. He can shoot blasts.. that doesnt make him a blaster. Iron Man can utilize his armor to make himself as strong as Thor for a if he chose to do so. He can also take incredible amounts of damage. |
Originally Posted by Stealth_Bomber
Insightful as always, Arcanaville.
My personal view is that the movie version of Iron Man is the best definition for Blasters as the game is today. |
Did you see him herding in the movie.. that sir is not a blaster..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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No, but I did see him pulling |
Originally Posted by Airhammer
Did you see him herding in the movie.. that sir is not a blaster..
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Moreover, the MOVIE version of Iron Man, as Stealth_Bomber specified, has only moderate durability (note how he ends almost every major fight with his armor severely damaged), but lots of "whoa" attacks. Mapping movie characters to game archetypes is fuzzy business, but he could reasonably be interpreted as a blaster. Heck, Avengers had a cinematic version of the "anyone got a wakie?" moment, with Iron Man the faceplanted one. (Hulk combined three reds.)
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I agree that you cannot map movies to games.. Iron Man to me is a bad example if you want to use try to type a Blaster... To me is more like a Corruptor with some Melee attacks. |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
No, but I did see him pulling
Moreover, the MOVIE version of Iron Man, as Stealth_Bomber specified, has only moderate durability (note how he ends almost every major fight with his armor severely damaged), but lots of "whoa" attacks. Mapping movie characters to game archetypes is fuzzy business, but he could reasonably be interpreted as a blaster. Heck, Avengers had a cinematic version of the "anyone got a wakie?" moment, with Iron Man the faceplanted one. (Hulk combined three reds.) |
Now Human Torch.. PURE blaster..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
We already have an AT that's like Corruptors with melee attacks but no buff/debuff/support powers. We call them Blasters.
IMO, Iron Man (movie or otherwise) doesn't fit even remotely well into any archetype. Blaster is much closer than Corruptor, though.
Iron Man may not be completely analogious to blasters in game as is currently, but I think the point still stands. Iron man has far more blasts than anything, no buffs/debuffs, little in the way of support and a smattering of melee. What seperates him from our blasters is his survivability. Though you could say his utilizing his armour to become as strong as thor as popping a few lucks and sturdys, or turning on a 'god mode' power from an APP and going and round mobs up.
I think though, if you are insisting that it's 'baked into his AT' then why can't our blasters be a little more survivable too? Ok, maybe not uber tank survivable, just more.
Oh, and personally, I see Human Torch as more of a corruptor type, after all, he can control any fire he see's and can form it into shapes which gives him more of a support element that blasters lack.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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Human Torch can't be a blaster. When I watch the movies I want him to die, but he never does.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
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My Blasters do not die all over the place..
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Human Torch can't be a blaster. When I watch the movies I want him to die, but he never does.
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The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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So he's a human form Peacebringer.
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Originally Posted by St_Angelius
Iron man has far more blasts than anything, no buffs/debuffs, little in the way of support and a smattering of melee. What seperates him from our blasters is his survivability...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Following those breadcrumbs led me to my splash/concentration idea:
1. Add a splash counter-mez effect to all blaster single target attacks (at least the ranged attacks) similar to Impact. Effects would be designed to only affect the target for a very short amount of time, i.e. on a timescale of about 4 seconds at most, and generally affect targets a short radius away (about 8 feet or so). The effect would be customized to be thematically appropriate to the powerset. The concept is that Blaster single target attacks are powerful enough to "splash" effects on nearby targets which will interfere with their ability to return fire. 2. Add a second effect to those same attacks such that if there are no enemies nearby the target of the attack, the target of the attack is hit by bonus damage. The concept is that when a blaster is literally attacking only one target, they can focus their attack on that target, concentrating its effects and generating more damage. In effect all blaster attacks become AoEs, its just that some of them will be AoE damage attacks, and some will be AoE mitigation attacks that deal damage only to the central target. Propel provides some guidance here. It still takes single target ranged sets. Also, you don't really want short duration counter-mez effects to be slottable anyway: they are going to be designed to have a particular duration for balance purposes. (Also, I have a sneaking suspicion the devs stole my splash idea for propel in the first place). In my case, every powerset would be getting more control, and every powerset would be getting more single target damage. No set would be getting worse in any way, and no set would have an AoE advantage. Since AoEs do not get splash/concentrate, sets with more AoEs get less of this mitigation effect. Sets with less get more. Single target attacks become more competitive with AoEs because they have stronger mitigation and deal more damage in the single target case. Its more likely the chance would compress the range of blaster performance, and not exaggerate deficiencies. |
This sounds great! (There's my $0.02)
HUMAN EAT
Arcanaville, something like this would have to be very set specific, though, don't you tink?
I mean, for some sets stuns may make much more sense, for others holds, for others perhaps fear or a kind of Knock Down over time effect.
Not that I find that a counter but as mentioned, maybe asking devs to do this kind of change may be unrealistic due to implementation time.
I guess I'll take your word about the engine's ability to do an AoE mez or a ST damage bonus, but not sure I agree with that logic. I may agree more with an stronger ST mez if there is no AoE splash than with bonus damage (I don't think the goal here is to get more damage but to get more survivability.)