Blasters and mez - Are we going about it wrong?
Hyperbolic lack of reason, Nether. I expect better from you.
The only thing I'll add is that the suggestions and observations I mentioned are a far far cry from LRN 2 Play. |
here's the quote again:
One of the biggest problems people have with Blaster Secondaries is... they don't use them. Usually because they want to stay at range. And they claim something is wrong with Blasters because either a) they're not benefiting from their secondaries or b) their secondaries force them into range (and they don't seem to be able to handle being in and out of range). |
THEY can't "handle" close range.
If it walks like a duck, etc.
In any case blasters need help and people will continue playing other, better engineered ATs in preference until they get it. What shape it takes is irrelevant provided their survivability and playability issues are addressed.
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My City Was Gone
The secondaries aren't the sole problem for Blasters, IMO. Like I said, it's a lot of little points that add up but secondaries is one of those points.
It's not that the secondaries aren't good, they're just not good enough (IMO). I'd think the closest analog to secondary effectiveness that ranks as good as Blasters is Tankers. Tankers' secondary (melee) while not great, it's still very good and it's hard to argue they're less than that. Not only that, they actually *have* a wide variety of them so if one doesn't suit you, there's most likely another that will do so better.
Blaster Secondaries:
So the first point of issue, is the number of them. There's only 7. Even Doms have more secondaries (1 more). It's less likely that, if one secondary doesn't fit, that another one will barring conceptual element. A mini-point within this point is that the secondaries vary in their application. Some are melee or damage focused, others are mitigation focused and others some mix of utility with something like control, some are ranged some are PBAoE, buff and/or damage with the extreme outlier being /devices as it's a tangent to straight damage.
I don't feel there should be anything to fix this except add more secondaries. Go ahead and vary them, make a secondary that focuses primarily on buff and control, one on utility only, another on purely damage, etc. But there definitely should be more of a focus on secondaries for Blasters as well as Dominators.
I think the second and main point of issue with the secondaries is they don't go far enough. Compared, again, to Tankers who aren't particularly savvy with their melee secondary compared to other damage focused ATs, they still get good aggro management from their secondaries (Taunt is tailor made for Tankers + Gauntlet shoots their aggro above others on a straight-by-the-numbers standpoint) and they still get things awesome like Arc of Destruction, Rage+Footstomp, Martial Arts Storm Kick adds defense to all for them, Power Siphon buffs damage a lot, Fault is a horrendously good mitigation tool...there's highlights in practically all their secondaries. I guess there's also Defender's blast secondary not being that well off but that may have part to do with how blast sets are made-up. For Blaster secondaries, only some have premiere highlights and it usually amounts to sub-par or menial effects like Build Up, Drain Psyche on a moderately low HP scale, Power Boost on effects and defense that again is on a low scale, Hotfeet which is horrendously endurance intensive, etc.
To minimize the need to formulate secondaries, just go through every secondary and when you'd say "Eeeehh, I think that's good enough for them" go in and bump it a little more anyway. Blasters ain't got much else choice so why not make what rag-tag powers they do get into something *really* nice?
Devices...
-I'd say Web Grenade, Targeting Drone, Taser (if you buff Blaster's control mod) and Caltrops are fine.
-Smoke Grenade could use some boosts. Make it into a Blinding Powder Clone, except not a cone and probably without the confuse.
-Trip Mine, speed up its animation. Not going to talk about Time Bomb...
-Gun Drone...why is this thing so clunky? Why is it so expensive and take so much time for a pet with a limited duration? Is it equivalent to some of the tier 9s others get?
Dark Manipulation...
-I have no experience with it, but I it has one flaw I can see that is shared by ever secondary with a certain kind of power...Why is Death Shroud 8ft radius? It should be 15-20ft radius. I don't care, cap it at 10 foes but you should need to be standing right next to something.
Energy Manipulation...
-I think EM is fine, frankly. Not because it's melee focused or utility focused but because it's versatile. If you want to do melee, you can tailor choose which powers emphasize that, or if you want range, you can keep to powers that benefit you better. If anything were changed, I'd probably change one of the powers into a pseudo-ranged power like Stun or Power Thrust so that it keeps to that versatility.
Electric Manipulation...
-The best secondary for Blasters, IMO. For straight up content, it's got melee dmg, it's got debuff and control, and Lightning Field is 20ft radius. If blaster control mods were upped, I feel the secondary would be fine with perhaps some adjustments to utility...adding some +End to self would add variety.
Fire Manipulation...
-It tries. If Blasters weren't plauged by other little problems, this secondary would probably be the best overall for damage...but Burn is slow and close ranged, Consume is long recharging for its utility, Blazing aura is pitiful for damage, and auras as a whole shut off from being mezzed. There's no way around that unless you have mez protection...or if the devs changed it so toggles specifically don't drop for blasters (only suppress).
-The set itself is probably enough to deal damage...you probably wouldn't even need a primary. I could see 1 or 2 powers being modified to add either utility or buff instead of damage to vary this set but it doesn't quite need it.
Ice Manipulation...
-One of my favorite secondaries because it gives Blasters what they need, control and mitigation. It doesn't, however, provide a lot of damage, just Frozen Fist, Ice Sword and Freezing Touch.
-Either add more damage or add more utility or add more control.
-Several of the powers animate too slow...Ice Patch, Shiver, Chilling Embrace, Frozen Aura...for doing no damage and having limited utility and control, it's hard to justify their speed of use.
Mental Manipulation...
-Another I have limited experience with. Drain Psyche is probably too powerful. Fix the debuff on it and perhaps add boost other effects like the stun chance on Psi Shockwave, buff Scare, along with boosting World of Confusion to 15-20ft and I'd think you'd have a better balance vs the set leaning heavily on Psy Scream, Drain Psyche and Psi Shockwave.

Just a few comments on the two secondaries I'm well versed in-
Devices...
-I'd say Web Grenade, Targeting Drone, Taser (if you buff Blaster's control mod) and Caltrops are fine. -Smoke Grenade could use some boosts. Make it into a Blinding Powder Clone, except not a cone and probably without the confuse. -Trip Mine, speed up its animation. Not going to talk about Time Bomb... -Gun Drone...why is this thing so clunky? Why is it so expensive and take so much time for a pet with a limited duration? Is it equivalent to some of the tier 9s others get? |
Targeting Drone's big draw back in the day was allowing you to go crazy slotting damage, which made it great for the binary world of SOs. ED & IOs have seriously eroded its utility. The +per is nice, but.....
Taser stinks, but for an ar/dev like me it's useful for stacking with Beanbag.
Trip Mines are okay for people who don't mind the playstyle they impose. The fact that they don't benefit from Targeting Drone's +acc is shameful.
Smoke Grenade is junk, Time Bomb is junk, Gun Drone is SUPER junk, although it gives a decent bump to Defiance- still not worth the interminable activation time.
Ice Manipulation... -One of my favorite secondaries because it gives Blasters what they need, control and mitigation. It doesn't, however, provide a lot of damage, just Frozen Fist, Ice Sword and Freezing Touch. -Either add more damage or add more utility or add more control. -Several of the powers animate too slow...Ice Patch, Shiver, Chilling Embrace, Frozen Aura...for doing no damage and having limited utility and control, it's hard to justify their speed of use. |
A couple powers could use tweaks, but for the most part it keeps you safe while you lay waste with your primary.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
I'll let others debate about the effectiveness of the secondary but it seems silly to me to proclaim that every secondary except Ice sucks and that if you are good with other secondaries or enjoy them its because you like to play things that are crap.
I just find that comment distasteful and insulting.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
I'll let others debate about the effectiveness of the secondary but it seems silly to me to proclaim that every secondary except Ice sucks and that if you are good with other secondaries or enjoy them its because you like to play things that are crap.
I just find that comment distasteful and insulting. |
Blaster secondaries, on another hand, vary a lot and maybe as much as Corruptors...but in a different way. Corruptors' secondaries vary a lot but are tailor built to work in conjunction to blast sets because that is what they are more often paired with.
Blaster secondaries have one specific counter-point in how they work with primaries and that generally lends to melee range or long range. That's a difference I feel should remain, which may not mesh with some primaries or playstyles but it's *going* to cause problems overall. You can just look at the auras and already tell it's a major problem because they're so close range, they don't do all that much damage *AND* they shut off if you get mezzed which is more likely to happen in melee.
But yeah, this isn't a thread about Blaster secondaries (is it?). It's about mez. I feel Blasters (and Defenders and Controllers and Corruptors) should have an answer to mez. It doesn't have to be melee protection worthy, but there has to be *something* there they can take advantage of. It'd be like, if Melee ATs were all short-range and all could *NOT* choose flight, super speed, super jump or teleport and could only rely on sprint and combat jumping so if foes decide to fly and plink at them or run, they have *no* answer except to sprint. That'd certainly be a weakness to melees but even *then* they have other avenues to exploit like AI, LoS or moderate range in their attack sets.
Basically, point to a situation where melees have *no* answer to at all. I honestly can't think of one.
Arcana's idea about the triggering mez resistance with attacks should probably translate to all blasts. Being able to basically shoot at foes and build up mez resistance (probably have to adjust mez resistance caps if needed) wouldn't make mez a non-issue, but if it'd make getting mezzed mid-combat only a moderate annoyance instead of a death sentence, I feel that'd be enough...and with Blaster's ability to shoot while mezzed, it'd give them a more pronounced advantage for relying on offensive tactics (as they should).

I'll let others debate about the effectiveness of the secondary but it seems silly to me to proclaim that every secondary except Ice sucks and that if you are good with other secondaries or enjoy them its because you like to play things that are crap.
I just find that comment distasteful and insulting. |
Feel free to sprinkle a handful of IMHO's over my posts in this thread if that helps your indigestion.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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A lot of the Blaster secondaries are pretty bad. They don't offer enough mitigation or protection for you to feel confident when you jump into melee.
I think there's only a few Blaster Secondaries that actually mix well with the AT or the Primary of Blasters.