A reminder:
This thread is for discussion regarding the mechanical changes proposed by Synapse. All other discussion will be strictly moderated.
Thanks
-Z
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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Yo I didn't know kinetics defenders were procs.|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
You get less of a bonus from having a kinetic defender on your team if you have Musculature slotted.
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I mean yeah, there's a chance they won't speed boost you, but cmon.
Not to mention you'll get less of a bonus with Spiritual as well since recharge buffs drop off after a certain points, but hey.
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I am not saying the procs should work worse than now in AoEs, but I am saying they should not work even better.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This seems silly to me. It's like claiming that we should not allow any more critical-style effects that work on AoEs, or that no future effects like Build Up or Aim should buff AoEs.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Procs are simply a limited critical. I don't see a reason to single them out as some attempt to balance AoEs in this game when, in the scope of effects that apply to AoE, they are possibly the least powerful in general.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
They cannot change from flat rate to PPM without buffing procs in some AoEs, unless they do, in fact, nerf procs in AoEs period. It's inherent in the very point of using PPM mechanics that there will be powers where the proc chance to go off is higher.
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Hey, my fire blaster has 2 procs in Fireball, 1 each in FSC, BA, and Hot Feet. I'll get all kinds of benefit if procs in AoEs get buffed. I have 2 in Flares (which stands a good chance of seeing a reduction, but I have only 40% rech in it, so maybe not too bad), 1 each in Ring of Fire, Fire Sword, and Blaze (which may get hit because I have little global recharge (32.5%), but 90% slotted recharge).
There is a certain irony in the fact that I skipped out on Hasten and other global recharge because I have a large number of attacks and slotted for recharge, and now I will lose out a bit from people who have way better builds with much more recharge than I, but they got that recharge globally.
I do not think it is silly to be cautious about how procs work in AoEs. It should be thoroughly examined and considered. They should certainly not get buffed as an unintended change and they should not get buffed after one afternoon of working on a formula and then figuring, "Ah, that won't be so bad." (Not that I expect that in any way, we have a lot of time before I24, and plenty of time to work out kinks). If after review someone chooses to buff procs in AoEs, sure thing (and buff defenders too).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I'm not sure how this change will effect my Defensive Sweep power on my Brute - It's got one Armageddon Acc/Rech, and 5 damage procs (Armageddon, Obliteration, Eradication, Scirocco's Dervish, and Perfect Zinger). I use it as filler for my Single Target attack chain and for random damage as an aoe (but Whirling Smash and Arc of Destruction more than cover that aspect). I'm hoping it wont be too badly affected, but I'll just slot some damage enhancements in place of all the procs.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Undoubtedly.|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
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More importantly: I'm at work right now so my access is restricted, but when I get home later I am going to verify whether or not Recharge Speed benefits suffer exponential decreases as more is accumulated (the first +100% gives more of a reduction than the +100% that follows it), seeing how as I don't remember this off-hand.
If this is the case, I cannot stress deeply enough how impacting these changes will affect builds.
First and foremost, it will penalize players with very high global recharge values who used Enhancement Boosters in Enhancements that boost Recharge, because the net benefit from their Recharge Enhancement values will be minimal after 180+%, which is easy to do with set bonuses, Hasten, and one SO Enhancement. In other words, In an attack like Knockout Blow, attempting to add a 30% Recharge Enhancement on a build with roughly 140% global recharge and 60% standard recharge is going to see several points lost on their proc percentage in exchange for a mere .7 or so or a second of additional recharge. This means that Global Recharge benefits still heavily alter min-maxing on builds by rendering Recharge Enhancements toxic in comparison.
I'll elaborate on this further once I have some hard numbers in front of me, but seeing as how I've been -thankfully- wrong about some bad situations quite a bit as of late, maybe I'm getting flustered over nothing. I would actually very much appreciate it if someone could prove this theory wrong.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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Perhaps the better way to handle the min/max caps is simply to bound the part of the formula where the recharge+cast time goes. Everything under 3 seconds acts like 3 and everything over 45 seconds acts like 45, for example.|
Originally Posted by Synapse
3) Procs will have a maximum chance to trigger. I'm leaning toward 90-95%. There will be a minimum chance to proc equal to 5 plus 1.5 per PPM. Only the most extreme instances of very low recharge, cast time and area factor will cause this to occur.
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Originally Posted by Synapse
5) The formula will treat Area Factor differently. Instead of simply using the flat Area Factor of the power, it will use 1 plus 75% of the difference between 1 and its actual AF.
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Originally Posted by Synapse
As many of you have mentioned it seems odd to penalize players' proc chances for strengthening their builds with global recharge. So, only recharge modification from enhancements and enhancement-like effects (like Alpha Slot effects) will modify proc chance.
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There is a part of me that thinks the global recharge in the build should count (if recharge is going to count at all). The massive benefits high recharge builds have far outweigh the minor reduction in proc rate; plus it gives a build choice. I can build for more recharge to get attack C back faster and/or to get heal x back faster and or control y back faster, but I may lose a few percentage points on the chance to proc in attack z. Which is more valuable to me?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Easier math version:|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I'm just estimating here, but it should still be capped proc chance up to somewhere around 40% rchg.
Just to list the most common slottings of BU/Aim to put it in comparison: 2 Rectified Reticle (S/L bonus) ----------------------16% rchg 2 Rectified Reticle (S/L bonus)+lvl 50 rchg IO --- 58.4% rchg 3 Gaussian incl proc (HP bonus) -------------------- 53% rchg 6 Gaussins (positional bonuses) ------------------- 73.78% rchg 2 Adjusted Targetting (dmg bonus) --------------- 68.9% rchg All of that is not much higher than 40% and should retain very high proc chance on the BU proc. |
100% is pretty much the most you can slot into a power (barring Alpha). 100% recharge drops a 90s power to 45s. 45s is 75% of 60s, so BU with 100% recharge has a 75% proc rate (assuming 1 PPM).
I don't have a computer with Mids' at hand right now, but I'm pretty sure that 6-slotting 50+5 common IOs and a T4 Alpha is going to get somewhere around 140% recharge. That gives a 40s recharge. 40s is 66.7% of 60s, so a 1 PPM proc in BU should never drop below 66.7%
@Roderick
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Yeah, I was thinking maybe allow all forms of recharge to work, but cap it at 100% enhancement (then my Spiritual/Agility toons wouldn't get hit for the full 125% recharge value).
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
On the other hand, global recharge already has huge benefits; so why does someone with 30% recharge slotted and 170% global recharge deserve more procs than someone with 70% recharge slotted but only 30% global recharge? It seems a case of letting the rich get richer while the middle class stays stuck (or loses ground). It may be the only mechanical way to handle it due to outside buffs and due to the very good points about building for large amounts of global recharge due to other facets of your build, but this way may be just as unfair to possibly more people.
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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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One thing to keep in mind with that particular proc is that (as far as I can tell anyway), it can only activate once per activation. So it isn't very good for AoEs. In single-target attacks I've found it fires quite often. (The dom proc was similar, but I heard something about it being changed to be non-pathetic in AoEs. Haven't tested it though.)|
Originally Posted by firespray
I'm not sure to be honest. I haven't actually used the PPM procs other than the chance for fury proc in footstomp. I don't know what the PPM on that one is, but it doesn't seem to go off hardly at all. Maybe the numbers I posted above are the total chance to proc, though if they are, I'm not sure how it decides which target to proc against. If that's the case, then if you're hitting more than just a couple targets, those are pretty hefty nerfs.
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I'm a bit unhappy about what this looks like it'll do to procs in control set's AoE immobilizes. Let's see if I have this right... Take Chain Fences, assume it's enhanced to a 4 second recharge time, and a Positron's Blast proc.
(4+1.17) * (3 * 1.25) / 60 / (1 + .75 * (.15*30) ) = 0.07
That's actually low enough to run into the proc floor Synapse suggested, I think. Of course, my Elec/Rad controller doesn't have that much recharge in Chain Fences yet. 6 is probably closer. Still... ow. Remi's nowhere near being the king of damage as it is, so that'd definitely hurt.
SBE procs currently live aren't worse than the flat version for most AoE damage powers, since the AoE mod isn't near as big a number as some people seem to expect. Looks to me like that'll still be true in a lot of cases here. But that huge radius combined with a short recharge really hurts...
-Morgan.
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Well said. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
On the other hand, global recharge already has huge benefits; so why does someone with 30% recharge slotted and 170% global recharge deserve more procs than someone with 70% recharge slotted but only 30% global recharge? It seems a case of letting the rich get richer while the middle class stays stuck (or loses ground).
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Also, per my previous post above, I don't currently have the means of verifying whether Recharge buffs provide diminishing returns (as memory fails me at the moment), but if they do, it will mean that those with high Global Recharge benefits will be seeing toxicity in Enhancement Recharge values, which also makes Enhancement Boosted IOs with a Recharge component dangerous to min-maxed builds.
I'm surprised no one else caught this, or maybe I'm just going crazy.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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Would it be possible to have procs that affect the player ignore the AoE factor? If I understand correctly the reason the AoE factor exists is to keep a proc from firing too often against a group of enemies. That makes sense, it's the reason why flat % procs are so good in AoEs currently.|
Originally Posted by Synapse
ACK! You're right. Sorry about that. Foot Stomp's area factor is 3.25 not 2.5. These are the actual values for Foot Stomp with Force Feedback slotted.
CURRENT PPMs Foot Stomp Base Recharge: 20 seconds Cast Time: 2.1 seconds Area Factor: 3.25 Force Feedback Proc IO Chance: 10% PPM: 1.5 Proc Chance: 15.8% PROPOSED PPMs Foot Stomp Base Recharge: 20 seconds Cast Time: 2.1 seconds Area Factor: 2.5 Force Feedback Proc PPM: 1.875 0% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 24% 33% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 18.6% 66% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 15.4 100% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 13.2% PPM: The above values are assuming we apply a 25% bonus to existing PPMs. |
However a self-buff proc, like force feedback's +recharge for example, never has a chance to hit more than 1 target, so the AoE factor seems like an unnecessary detriment to the proc chance. Or am I missing something here?
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The formula for actual recharge is Base Recharge / (1 + ΣRecharge Increase) where Base Recharge is a value in seconds and ΣRecharge Increase is the decimal sum of all recharge modifiers such as enhancements, buffs, and debuffs.|
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
I don't currently have the means of verifying whether Recharge buffs provide diminishing returns (as memory fails me at the moment), but if they do, it will mean that those with high Global Recharge benefits will be seeing toxicity in Enhancement Recharge values, which also makes Enhancement Boosted IOs with a Recharge component dangerous to min-maxed builds.
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In short, yes, the more recharge you have, the less each percentage point is worth.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
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I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
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Oh. Crap. |
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
The formula for actual recharge is Base Recharge / (1 + ΣRecharge Increase) where Base Recharge is a value in seconds and ΣRecharge Increase is the decimal sum of all recharge modifiers such as enhancements, buffs, and debuffs.
In short, yes, the more recharge you have, the less each percentage point is worth. |
Thank you for clarifying.
I am going to have to put down some examples when I get home later to try and make it clear to everyone how troubling this is. Entire percentages for proc activation will be lost for gains that amount to less than a second from recharge enhancements in several powers on a build with very high global recharge rates. I only hope this concern isn't lost on the rest of the community.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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Forced Feedback DOES have a chance to hit more than one enemy, it just won't stack. That's why everyone put it into Footstomp, you get more chances of it occurring. So AOE Factor should probably count here.|
Originally Posted by Zaloopa
Would it be possible to have procs that affect the player ignore the AoE factor? If I understand correctly the reason the AoE factor exists is to keep a proc from firing too often against a group of enemies. That makes sense, it's the reason why flat % procs are so good in AoEs currently.
However a self-buff proc, like force feedback's +recharge for example, never has a chance to hit more than 1 target, so the AoE factor seems like an unnecessary detriment to the proc chance. Or am I missing something here? |
However your point does stand in another case, the Gaussian Chance for Build-Up in Soul Drain, as far as I know that ignores the number of people hit and just makes one roll when the power is triggered (because only one target is ever affected by the ToHit buff, you). So AOE Factor probably shouldn't count here I guess (so it works the same way in Aim, Build-Up and Soul Drain).
So here's my question. I have Lockdown (currently 15%, I'm assuming that becomes a 2.5 PPM) and the Controller proc (currently 4 PPM, assume that becomes 5 I guess?) slotted into Distortion Field (Activation Time 1 second, AOE 20 foot). What are the proc rates on that and how often will they be checked?
Now that I think about it, virtually no one else here seems to notice or care about the diminishing returns concern with recharge speed... which means very few people would actually catch on to this nerf and modify their builds to circumvent the symptoms... and just like the PvP changes in I13, what nerfs others more than it nerfs me is arguably a buff.
An EXPENSIVE buff that made me waste money not only on SBEs but also on Enhancement Boosters spent on Recharge Enhancements (which will need to be replaced due to aforementioned Recharge Toxicity), but a buff no less.
I could take advantage of this oversight.
Synapse! I think I've changed my mind. Push forward your current proposal. My glorious destiny awaits, and not even Arcanaville can stop it now!
No seriously, I can take advantage of this. I could be running around with an extra 5-10% more proc activation rate than the rest of the player base at a cost of less than .3 or .4 seconds of recharge per power. I will have to replace a sizable portion of my IOs recharge enhancements (especially some my purples) with non-Enhancement Boosted versions, but after going through it in my head I am pretty sure I could bend this formula to suit my power-gaming desires.
The complainers got their way, but I still came out laughing in the end. MUAHAHAHA!! 
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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While it is a potential issue (that was brought up WAY upthread), it's not that hard to rectify - slot less recharge. The global recharge in the power won't factor into the proc calculation, and if adding a 50+5 Recharge IO only takes 2 seconds off the power, but reduces the proc rate by 10%, slot something else that benefits you more.|
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
Oh. Crap.
Thank you for clarifying. I am going to have to put down some examples when I get home later to try and make it clear to everyone how troubling this is. Entire percentages for proc activation will be lost for gains that amount to less than a second from recharge enhancements in several powers on a build with very high global recharge rates. I only hope this concern isn't lost on the rest of the community. |
EDIT: I somehow missed your reply where you came to the same conclusion as I just posted. The thing is, you aren't all that unique for noticing this. People noticed the same thing in the first few posts after Synapse's revised proposal, and said "well, I can just slot less recharge and let global recharge speed me up, and get a higher proc chance".
The only reason nobody else was worried about your "recharge toxicity" is because everyone was already over it BEFORE you flipped your lid.
@Roderick
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I must have missed that part. |
Originally Posted by Roderick
While it is a potential issue (that was brought up WAY upthread), it's not that hard to rectify - slot less recharge. The global recharge in the power won't factor into the proc calculation, and if adding a 50+5 Recharge IO only takes 2 seconds off the power, but reduces the proc rate by 10%, slot something else that benefits you more.
EDIT: I somehow missed your reply where you came to the same conclusion as I just posted. The thing is, you aren't all that unique for noticing this. People noticed the same thing in the first few posts after Synapse's revised proposal, and said "well, I can just slot less recharge and let global recharge speed me up, and get a higher proc chance". The only reason nobody else was worried about your "recharge toxicity" is because everyone was already over it BEFORE you flipped your lid. |
But I'm actually not lying - I really can't lose in this scenario. This is very advantageous for me, but wildly expensive for everyone else. Either changes will be made to resolve recharge toxicity or I can take advantage of my massive global recharge buffs and settle on a loss on my Enhancement Boosters to re-purchase key IOs to maximize proc chance with very literally split-second opportunity cost.
The latter option just happens to hurt a lot of people's builds in the process, but being sympathetic wasn't exactly helping my case anyway. If others' end-game builds suffer as a result, then c'est la vie.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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Well, synapse did point out that in many cases this would end up being a buff to the proc rate from what we have now. I'm still just now sure whether the numbers for the % chance to trigger for AoE PPM procs is per target or not. I'm hoping it is, because otherwise the numbers we were shown mean a pretty significant nerf to proc chances in AoE powers when fighting a lot of enemies. And personally I'd rather see a buff than a nerf any day.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I am going to guess that this behavior is unintended and will be reduced. There is, as far as I can tell, no good reason to buff AoEs from the flat chance procs. I'd much rather have a slight reduction in the AoE proc rate than any increase.
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How would this work with the Achilles Heel proc in Sleet and the Dominator ATO proc in, say, Dominate or Char?
My head hurts from reading this thread all the way through So many numbers!
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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All you need to understand is this: |
Originally Posted by EU_Damz
My head hurts from reading this thread all the way through
So many numbers! |
Global Recharge bonuses and Hasten = Good
Recharge Enhancements and Alpha slots with Recharge component = Bad
...in so far as the proposed PPM proc formula works, anyway.
So if you use a proc-heavy build with IO set bonuses, don't use Enhancement Boosters on any of the IOs that have a recharge component in your attack powers, and pick as many without the recharge component as possible. Recharge enhancement values (including those from certain trees for the Alpha slot) are toxic towards proc activation rates, but global bonuses and Hasten do not affect them.
If you were like me and used Enhancement Boosters on everything, including the aforementioned enhancements with a recharge component, then buying replacements to capitalize on this formula is going to hurt your virtual (or if you buy replacements from the Paragon Market, your literal) wallet.
Come to think of it, that last bit is almost suspiciously too convenient of an option in addressing this scenario...
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
So by dramatically changing these products we've paid for you've basically executed a bait and switch.
I know the EULA says gameplay may change etc... but come on! People bought procs precisely because of how they worked and now you're basically taking a product they bought and breaking it. I'm sorry but that just doesn't fall under your "right to change the game". Not when people like me have spent dollars specifically for something that works a certain way. If this goes live I'll send petition after petition to have the procs I bought returned and my points refunded and I will continue to do so until I am reimbursed for the fraud you are trying to commit. And fraud it is. In fact I think I'll start sending petitions now because I will not be taken advantage of in this manner. You cannot sell me a product that functions one way and then "firmware" it into something else entirely. You cannot justify it as "broken" because then you're admitting you sold me a faulty product. I'm not saying you can't make the change but I'll be damned if you can get away with denying me a refund on a product I paid for that you broke. |
i agree, they need to think more carefully about what they are selling and how it works. if they are turning this game in to "city of us selling you expensive stuff " they need to be more responsible for what they are selling and make sure it works in a way that means it doesnt need any adjustments. or intergrate a service which allows people to refund its not enough to say (ALL SALES ARE FINAL)
ps if they re final leave the stuff already purchased alone or you run the risk of paying customers not buying your stuff in future because its not safe. and im sure the last few updates and powersets have really benfited from the revenue we are providing, which is why you slap a special "discount" on the market when ever something new is out.
"an eye for an eye can only lead to blindness"
"am i a clown for wearing a smile...or are you a fool to try and stop me?"
Degzy_G ProductionZ inc
I agree with a lot of the sentiment in this thread.
Bait and (mostly?) switch.
Explain clearly why the old style is abusable. WHY is this change necessary. You hinted at there being an abuse related reason behind this push. Put it out there and tell us all.
You have people spending real money on things, and you are being neither open nor honest with the player base.
What is wrong with the old way of doing things? If you are going to throw out hints, put it on the table.
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Hew in drag baby
While I understand the need to tweak and fix things that are broken or out of whack, these particular changes in planning made me angry enough to finally register on the forum, just to post this.
I've bought PP for the exact purpose of getting market procs, BECAUSE they were guaranteed to fire on slow recharge heavy hitters. I wouldn't pay for something I can easily craft in game. Now you're going to change procs in a way that makes bought and crafted ones identical, making my purchases worthless... and making recharge bonuses less of a bonus and more of a penalty in the process.
This is wrong. I've paid for products that you're going to radically alter, for the worse. I don't want 90% chance (or who knows how much less), I PAID for 100% chance.
The current way works fine. Crafted procs are good for fast recharge powers, store-bought ones are an attractive option for slow recharge ones. The slow stuff is still, y'know, slow, so it's not like the advantage is earth-shattering. Don't try to fix what isn't broken.
Re-think this, please. It's a bad idea, all in all.
This is basically the same thing as if Musculature affected the damage of any procs in a negative or positive way.