The ATO proc for Brutes is worthless

Now this...I like this. The proc currently isn't worth it.

Under +damage buffs Scrappers always out damage Brutes.

There was a point under the old Damage cap that fulcrum shift would allow a Brute to do more than a Scrapper.

But for every other time in the game, under +damage buffs, the Scrapper wins - and the old Brute damage cap is gone.



Also, the old reasons for Fury being changed have nothing to do with a new proc.

This proc should add something to the Brute AT.

Tankers are about to get much tougher from their proc, Scrappers are going to increase their DPS & random burst damage from theirs and the Brute proc is apparently doing nothing at all.

Well, then, you should campaign against the Devs, to get that unjust change to fury fixed immediately.

Good luck!

I didn't see anywhere that Deus said it was unjust for Brutes to do less damage than Scrappers. He simply stated the fact that they did, as they should to compensate for their improved toughness and aggro capabilities. And if they're already where they should be, why do they need to get a dud ATO proc?

Pretty much this.

I agree, was on an UG Trial last night and I could always hit 80 fury so fast... I don't see any use for this proc except maybe PVP (And I am guessing here because I don't PVP)

I see it as a commentary on what archetypes need any kind of help or special benefits.

Heroes, Villains ♦ Reviews ♦ Retrospect

The proc helped me boost to 85% Fury...which still isn't much.

You think my StJ/SD Scrapper that can CU for 800-1K damage with T4 musculature while solo before criticals needs more special benefits?

Sure, I'll buy that. More please.

I don't see how that is possible but let me ask a few questions:

1) What condition was it under?

2) How many attacks per second were you using?

3) How many enemies were attacking you?

4) What type of enemies were attacking you?

Both me and Arcanaville proved this is numerically impossible without having a lot of enemies attack you.

At 80 fury you generate .25 FPS if you were generating 1 attack PER SECOND. This is extremely high for a Brute and most sets cannot achieve this. Assuming this proc that would mean you would generate only .271 FPS. In order to get 85% fury you need to be generating .4475 fury per second.

This means you need a full group of mobs attacking you, and this proc does not effect incoming attacks only attacks made by you.

Essentially, it wasn't the proc that achieved what you did but the group of mobs attacking you which has no correlation to the proc.

Based on your post, did you ignore all the numbers? This proc won't help you get from 75-80 fury (And this can already be achieved) the majority of fury generation from going from 75-80 is from enemy attacks which has no effect by this proc.

Even if you were generating 1 attack per second, which the majority of sets cannot do due to animation times, you would be generating 1.125 FPS or about 1.2 with the proc.

Assuming you would be being attacked by 16 enemies that also generate 1 attack per second they would be generating approximately 8.3 FPS for you... nearly 800% more.

If this is how it works, this proc should be fine, shouldn't it? Maybe I'm missing something.

You're missing 2 important parts of my post. I probably wasnt clear.

one) I aint really happy about the whole changes to Brutes period, and this aint making me happy either.

two) I think of this as a bread crumb, but I'm happy for crumbs. The reason I'm happy is it is at least an indication that the Devs think Brutes deserve crumbs. It could be they want to put us on a stricter calorie loss diet instead.

But to sum it up, this Proc will be worthless on my high end brutes. I run invulnerability Brutes, I build them to take everything but Psi or multiple (like3+) AV agro pretty easily. Not saying I'm all that, its not that hard with a Invbul Brute. But it is pertinent because my Fury bar seriously does not need the bread crumb help offered by this proc, and I understand that.

But, again, it is nice to at least see the Devs being willing to give Brutes this Proc. Although, sometimes the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing in the worlds these things are made. There is always a call to nerf Brutes moah, and this little bread crumb is no guarantee that isnt right around the corner.

wow, now I'm not happy again. I'm gonna not read anything in here for a few days.

Lets look at a table of how much fury you generate per attack, ignoring the minmax complexity for a second (its not important in this area of fury) for the case of Fury ranging from 75 to 90:

Suppose you are hovering around 80 Fury. Each of your attacks is generating 0.5 fury per attack. Keep in mind Fury decays by 0.75 per second while under attack (2/sec when not being attacked). Notice that if you manage to temporarily edge Fury to 81%, your generated fury per attack drops to about 0.45. A similar drop happens for fury generated by incoming attacks. Its that drop that brings you back down. If you drop below 80 your fury generated rises, and if you rise above it drops. This is true for any fury value: there's nothing special about 80, I just picked it because it starts to get close to the limit of what people tend to see.

So the question is what does the Fury boosting proc do? Answer: column two is the fury generated under the ATIO proc, and column three is the fury generated under the superior version. Notice that under the standard proc, your generated fury does rise. But the effect depends on how much fury you tend to generate by default. If you normally hover around 80, then the proc means you should rise a bit. But by the time you reach 81 fury, the fury you generate per attack has already dropped to lower than you used to generate before the proc. And that means the proc will, if the situation is identical, increase your maximum fury from 80 to something a bit less than 81 - keep in mind the fury you generate from incoming attacks will also drop, and the proc doesn't work on those.

The Superior version increases generated fury more, but still by the time you are a hair over 81 your generated fury drops to about what it was before the proc. So *if* you tend to hover around 80, the proc will increase you to something around 80 point something, and the superior proc to 81 point almost nothing.

Notice if you tend to hover lower than that, the proc will boost you more. Here's the table at lower fury levels:

It could be worth up to several points of Fury if you naturally sustain lower levels of fury. But since Fury generation diminishes as actual fury rises, boosting it by a percentage does less and less as your actual fury is higher.

It would be sort of like giving you a +5% damage strength buff that was subject to ED. If your attacks are not slotted to the ED soft cap, like say at lower levels, that boost is significant. But at higher levels with ED in play, that same boost is not as significant because its being diminished by ED. Its the same basic principle.


WARNING: these tables only reflect fury generated by attacking. They do not include the effects of fury generation by being attacked. As a result, and because the proc does not affect Fury generated by being attacked, the actual benefit of the ATIO will be less than these tables imply. They are only meant to be a point of reference.


Also, one other thing. There are people who claim to be able to sustain 90 fury. Short of a bug, that's unlikely. Suppose these people are able to sustain an attack chain of 1 attack per second (factoring in arcanatime, since the server does). That's pretty fast. That would generate about 0.125 fury per second. Since the decay rate is 0.75, such a brute would have to generate 0.625 fury from incoming attacks. Incoming attacks generate half the fury attacking does per attack. So that means the brute would have to be attacked 10 times per second constantly. That's kind of a lot, especially when you consider that if you're generating one attack per second, you'd be killing off your sources of incoming attacks very quickly, and that at level 50 ten attacks per second is over a thousand dps of incoming damage.

Its not impossible to *reach* 90 fury, its just that your generated fury when you get there should drop to the point where you come back down again. To reach it and stay there is the hard part, and to average 90 requires being able to sustain *higher* levels than 90 to counterbalance the times when you are under 90, even if you do not count the time spent out of combat.

I was wondering when anyone would actually read my post lol. It's been a bit over a week so I don't remember the specifics. I will jump on beta as soon as I can to give you more info.

EDIT: Now correct me if I'm wrong ok?

Here's the Info

Council Mission, -1/+8, StJ/SD Brute Level 50

I fully slotted Initial Strike with the entire Brute ATIO set. I spammed it as much as I could so I could try to trigger the proc. I also used other attacks while the power was recharging. My Recharge for Initial Strike is 1.53 seconds...hasten was running so that brings the recharge down to 1.13 and the cast time for Initial Strike is 0.8 seconds.

Sorry I'm not the best at math AND I'm not good at counting my attacks per second...well not with a Melee toon that is. Here's a pic also.

The issue is not that getting to 85% fury is impossible, the issue is to what degree the proc itself is getting you there. If an actual in-game test can conclusively show that the ATIO increases maximum sustainable fury from 80% to 85%, that would point to a serious bug in the way the game engine itself handles fury. Its numerically impossible for the ATIO to have that effect if the game engine did what the designed behavior of fury implies.

As I always say, reality trumps calculations, but are you certain this is an apples to apples comparison between the same situation with and without the ATIO?

To be honest I can't say that it is...I am not sure what to make of it myself. I'm going to jump back on beta and see if I'm able to achieve 85% Fury without using Initial Strike. I agree with you as well actually. I have a feeling that the proc is not doing much at all and that Initial Strike is doing a heck of a job with fury generation.

EDIT: I'm stumped I was able to reach 85% Fury w/o Using Initial Strike! *Throws Papers in the air* well there goes my theories back to the drawing board I guess. The Proc is no good!

Oh! I didn't know that Hope! I didn't read it much when I slotted it. Hrmm.

I was able to reach 85% with the Proc unslotted...*sigh*

Well I know you reached this but I was going to point out based on the screenshot alone you have at least 12 enemies attacking you.

No calculator by my side but I would say about 70-80% of your fury generated is coming from their attacks and not your own.

Best way of saying it, also given the fact *EVERY* brute has brawl there is no reason to ever have spaces in your attack chain and its free on endurance.