The exact science is hidden, but from what we can determine the Devs have changed everything about a character's build, so that as soon as you step into a PvP zone you have no idea how to run your own 50. there are theories it is because 3 Devs are manic PvPers and this gives them an incredible advantage. Others say Devs just hate on PvP as a lunch table hobby, implementing whatever screwy things they can think of while eating hot pockets each day. No one really knows for sure.
That's probably a question better posted in the PvP forums.
Some of what you mention seems "off" if not wildly inaccurate...
What I know is different is:
* To Hit vs Players is 50% (not 75% like PvE NPCs).
* DR and Elusivity significantly effect Defense and Resistance (reduces them)
* Suppression occurs for a LOT of things, particularly Buffs
* Holds work quite differently.
I don't recall exact details on most of those things - preferring the far more
practical (and much easier) approach of simply learning what works on my toon,
and what doesn't 
Also, I have no idea how iStuff behaves as I typically PvP in Siren's where none
of that even applies.
In arena matches, the organizer can set many of the attributes.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Hm, I see.
I was just wondering why it is. I've been working on a perma lightform build in mids, and from what I can see, thus far, the science works in PvE. it's almost complete, having achieved the majority of expected effects, and it looks ready to go when finished. However, Mids also states that recharge time is untouched in PvP. I assumed for a program that's been working for a very long time, along side one of the oldest MMOs out there, it would have been able to identify this if such a debuff was intended and present.
Quote:
Well, the history of those decisions is rather sordid...|
Originally Posted by ArticulateT
Hm, I see.
I was just wondering why it is. I've been working on a perma lightform build in mids, and from what I can see, thus far, the science works in PvE. it's almost complete, having achieved the majority of expected effects, and it looks ready to go when finished. However, Mids also states that recharge time is untouched in PvP. I assumed for a program that's been working for a very long time, along side one of the oldest MMOs out there, it would have been able to identify this if such a debuff was intended and present. |
In the first place, the game *never* had PvP when it was released.
Consequently, little thought was given to what would happen when one player
used his powers on another player... In the Beginning, Balance was non existant.
Obviously, that lead to a lot of changes...
Unfortunately, there were two problems. The first is that The Game Engine
didn't/doesn't handle some PvP-ish things very well (ie. mezzes comes to mind).
The second problem, and it's a doozy, is that many (if not most) players
were perfectly happy *without* PvP in the game, and when devs started
changing their characters for a reason that was pointless to them, murderous
screams arose.
That lead to a lot of things working differently in PvP than they do in PvE.
Additionally, most of those changes were made by devs who had minimal PvP
experience in the context of their game, and who themselves (as far as I know)
were also not good, or particularly active PvPer's.
Then somewhere along the line, someone got a burr up their behind in a seriously
misguided fit of trying to make PvP palatable for all of the players who didn't
want it in the first place -- and they then decided to revamp the entire system.
To make it worse, their first action was to blatantly ignore everything the people
who actually *did* PvP suggested -- thus was born I-13.
If anything, this widened the gap between the way things work in PvE and the
way they do in PvP...
Not only did this NOT entice Little Johnny to jump onto the PvP bandwagon, it
pretty much also guaranteed he'd never figure out how it works even if he did.
On top of that, it seriously peeved the actual PvPer's off to the point where
many of them left, and iirc got at least one Game/Forum rep fired.
...and that, Virginia, is how we got a PvP system that nobody likes, only
a small handful of people bother with, and fewer still truly understand all
the nuances of how it *actually* functions (apart from "abysmally")...
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
And now I understand. Thank you! Now, I must go back to mids, and silently cry over the work that seems to have gone to waste. :P
I liked it when it was Rock/Paper/Scissors.
When they first introduced it in Issue 4 with the Arenas people weren't pleased with;
Travel powers used in combat. Tough to fight someone with Super Speed if they won't get within range of your melee attacks except in passing. Characters with Fly were penalized when they used their travel power.
Mez powers. Not really a fun fight if you are immobilized during the bulk of it by a controller who was use to locking down entire rooms.
Tank Vs Scrapper fights were more about endurance battles since either side couldn't damage the other enough to matter.
Sometimes it was fun, sometimes you felt like the pudgy kid in dodgeball. But this was in a somewhat controlled venue. When Issue 6 came out and we had PvP zones, well then it became the classic gank fest of many on one/few.
Balance is overrated. Someone with a Defender will always have a tough time versus a Scrapper or a Brute. I would never expect the Invisible Woman to take on the Hulk and win as often as she lost.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
Quote:
That's actually not true. |
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Balance is overrated. Someone with a Defender will always have a tough time versus a Scrapper or a Brute.
|
Granted it will depend on specific sets, but a Rad Emission Defender will make short work of any Scrapper or Brute that lacks a ranged mez.
The Defender will never close to melee range and will debuff the Scrapper or Brute into a kitten, because without a ranged mez the melee toon has no way of shutting off the Rad toggles. If the Defender's secondary happens to be Psychic Blast it gets even uglier, because any heal powers the melee toon has will never recharge fast enough to keep them alive.
Basically, if you're playing a Scrapper with no ranged mez and a Rad Defender drops it's toggles on you, you have 2 choices: Run away or die. It's pretty rare for the melee toon to win in that situation.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
As ClawsandEffect already mentioned Rad/Psy Defenders used to routinely wipe the floor with Scrappers and Brutes. Actually, almost every other non-melee AT could do that, but several Defender combos were especially potent against most other ATs 1v1. Defenders were often one of the most desired ATs on teams as well, but there was a certain amount of rock-paper-scissors to the balance between ATs and sets. At least under the old system.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Balance is overrated. Someone with a Defender will always have a tough time versus a Scrapper or a Brute. I would never expect the Invisible Woman to take on the Hulk and win as often as she lost.
|
The newer system seems to have actually reduced viability of most ATs to the point that it seems most of the time the advice is either Blasters or Stalkers if you want to be effective solo and possibly a Corruptor if you plan to team. Although it's been a while since i did much venturing into PvP zones, so i may be out of date in regards to what ATs are considered worthwhile.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
From what I understand, you can make any AT work, it's just specific power sets that are more desirable. |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
The newer system seems to have actually reduced viability of most ATs to the point that it seems most of the time the advice is either Blasters or Stalkers if you want to be effective solo and possibly a Corruptor if you plan to team. Although it's been a while since i did much venturing into PvP zones, so i may be out of date in regards to what ATs are considered worthwhile.
|
But definitely in a 1v1 situation, pretty much any melee AT is at a disadvantage against a ranged one. It's much easier to kite than it is to close with someone who's kiting. The kiting person can keep attacking, while the melee AT is only going to get one or two attacks off before they have to chase them down again.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Okay, not a great example but you understand my point. One on One PvP doesn't need to be balance so any AT, any combo of power sets, can win half their matches.
The last round of PvP changes altered powers and effects to such an extent that everyone might as well play the same generic character. Of course that's before you take into account players with purpled out characters.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
Quote:
For the most part, I'd say this is simply not true.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
From what I understand, you can make any AT work, it's just specific power sets that are more desirable.
|
Some AT's can do more or less ok (maybe even good), particularly Stalkers
and Blasters, but plenty are simply not useful, and a few are completely
worthless.
A perfect example for you... Burn Aura/Ice Melee Tank.
In PvE, nearly indestructible - it can tank Lusca for cryin' out loud.
In PvP - It might be able to bushwhack an 8yr old, with learning deficiencies,
on his first day in zone...
Why?
Ice Patch - worthless. SuperSpeeding, SuperJumpers completely ignore it
(and in zone, about 80% of players have both).
Burn - Even a moron knows not to stand in it.
Blazing Aura - mostly worthless. Nobody will stay in it either. It *can*
break a Stalker's hide (about 50/50 actually, due to Stalker AoE def in Hide)
Healing Flames - mostly worthless. First heal is good - it goes downhill from there - quickly.
Holds - worthless - they last about 2 secs (if that) from a Tank. Never bothered
to actually measure it because they're useless...
Basically, he doesn't have a useful power in PvP - this is (by far) the most worthless
PvP toon I have - despite being demigod-like in PvE...
In short, that toon cannot kill anyone in a PvP zone.
I'm betting he's not the only AT with issues like that - he's just one that I have
practical experience/knowledge of...
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Quote:
But that's an example of one particular powerset combination, and is not representative of the entire AT. |
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
For the most part, I'd say this is simply not true.
Some AT's can do more or less ok (maybe even good), particularly Stalkers and Blasters, but plenty are simply not useful, and a few are completely worthless. A perfect example for you... Burn Aura/Ice Melee Tank. In PvE, nearly indestructible - it can tank Lusca for cryin' out loud. In PvP - It might be able to bushwhack an 8yr old, with learning deficiencies, on his first day in zone... Why? Ice Patch - worthless. SuperSpeeding, SuperJumpers completely ignore it (and in zone, about 80% of players have both). Burn - Even a moron knows not to stand in it. Blazing Aura - mostly worthless. Nobody will stay in it either. It *can* break a Stalker's hide (about 50/50 actually, due to Stalker AoE def in Hide) Healing Flames - mostly worthless. First heal is good - it goes downhill from there - quickly. Holds - worthless - they last about 2 secs (if that) from a Tank. Never bothered to actually measure it because they're useless... Basically, he doesn't have a useful power in PvP - this is (by far) the most worthless PvP toon I have - despite being demigod-like in PvE... In short, that toon cannot kill anyone in a PvP zone. I'm betting he's not the only AT with issues like that - he's just one that I have practical experience/knowledge of... Regards, 4 |
Just because your Fire/Ice tank is no good in PvP, it does not automatically mean that ALL tanks suck in PvP. A Fire/SS/Earth tank is actually pretty good.
I specifically mentioned power set differences for a reason. It applies to every AT.
A Psi/EM blaster is awesome in PvP. A Dual Pistols/Ice, not so much. They're both blasters, but the power sets chosen make all the difference between whether they're going to rock or suck in PvP.
Similarly, a Regen scrapper will be significantly better in PvP than a Willpower scrapper. The self-heals make the difference there. Willpower's reliance on resistance, defense and regeneration make it awesome in PvE, but in PvP the defense and regeneration might as well not even be there because of the emphasis on accuracy and the likelyhood of being killed in seconds flat, long before your regeneration has a chance to heal you.
That's what I meant about any AT being viable, but specific power set choices make the difference.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ArticulateT
I'm sure this question's been asked before, but I just have to know, since it's really driving me nuts here.
In pvp, what are the exact buffs and debuffs that are applied to the character? I know there's a boost to damage and damage resistance, but I've never read anything about a random debuff to defence and recharge time that seems to keep cropping up. I ask because I've recently been working on a build that has a big focus on recharge time. At its current state, I can achieve (just) perma hasten, and have had perma essence boost and inner light working rather well. However, when I step into the arena, or into a pvp zone, those bonuses disappear, and by a terrifyingly large margin. At first, I thought it was due to incarnate powers, the alpha slot simply working to either debuff your stats or just turns itself off, but I've had a sudden decline in my defence as well, and that was when I was using Cardiac, which does nothing to your defence. A friend of mine even says he has better defence and accuracy without Nerve, which is what put me in that mind set. However, recently playing around with Agility, I found that it still provides a buff of some description, even if it is small. It's not so much me complaining, as it is wondering if it was there for a reason. if it is, I can adapt and make a new build, no harm done. If anyone can shed some light on this, I would be happy. |
What I believe you are talking about is Diminishing Returns (DR) and Inherent Resists, these are two of of the major changes to PvP that came about with the release of i13. Also added to PvP zones (and arena) was Heal Decay (HD), Travel Supression (TS) and Mez changes.
Essentially, DR- reduces the overall effect of buffs (via self or outside) placed on a character.
Inherent Resists- boosted the base value of resistance for specific ATs (The squisher the more resist was granted).
Heal Decay- After an initial heal, the effect of subsequent heals would be reduced (this includes self heals/insp, or outside buffs)
Travel Supression- just what it sounds like.
Mez changes- duration of mezzes in PvP reduced to a base or 2 for most attacks and some have a base of 4 (yes there are a few broken powers that dont follow these rules). Also, no one has Mez *protection* you will always be mezzed by the first attack, after which you briefly get mez supression. You can build Mez resist which reduces the duration of mez but its already so short you may not notice it much.
Arcana actually wrote up a great little post on this subject for a PvP Bootcamp that I ran a few months ago:
You can find the post here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=298
She also has a calculator for DR located here:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=CPO10LgM
I really like the tables she presented which are these:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
For the mathematically disinclined, here's some tables with precalculated values. You can interpolate between values to get an estimate for other values:
Most Strength buffs including damage: Code:
95% 80% 125% 100% 150% 115% 175% 128% 200% 141% 225% 152% 250% 162% 275% 172% 300% 181% 350% 197% 400% 212% 450% 226% 500% 239% Code:
Base A B C D MM 20% 17% 18% 18% 18% 16% 25% 20% 23% 22% 21% 18% 30% 23% 27% 26% 25% 21% 35% 26% 30% 29% 28% 22% 40% 29% 34% 32% 31% 24% 45% 31% 37% 35% 34% 25% 50% 33% 41% 38% 37% 27% 55% 35% 44% 40% 39% 28% 60% 36% 47% 43% 41% 29% 65% 38% 50% 45% 43% 29% 70% 39% 52% 47% 45% 30% 75% 40% 55% 49% 47% 30% 80% 41% 57% 51% 48% 31% 85% 42% 59% 53% 50% 31% 90% 43% 62% 54% 51% 32% B = Scrap/Stalk/Brute C = Tanker D = HEAT/VEAT MM = Masterminds Defense: Code:
Base A B H 10% 8% 9% 9% 15% 11% 14% 13% 20% 13% 18% 16% 25% 15% 21% 19% 30% 16% 24% 22% 35% 17% 28% 24% 40% 18% 30% 26% 45% 18% 33% 28% 50% 19% 35% 30% 60% 19% 40% 32% 70% 20% 43% 34% 80% 20% 46% 35% 90% 20% 48% 37% 100% 20% 50% 37% B = Scrap/Stalk/Brute/Tank/VEAT H = HEATs Tohit: Code:
10% 9% 15% 12% 20% 15% 25% 18% 30% 20% 35% 21% 40% 23% 45% 24% 50% 25% 60% 27% 70% 28% 80% 28% 90% 29% 100% 30% |
That should give you most of the information you were seeking.
As far as the discussion about can any AT pvp- I would tend to agree that most ATs work pretty well.
Blasters- psi/em, dark/em, sonic/em, rad/em all work pretty well in PvP.
Defenders- Cold/dark, poison/dark, rad/psi all jump to mind when I think
about this AT in pvp.
Scrappers- KM is currently a beast due to its Concentrated strike.
Tanks- SS seems to do well.
Dom- mind/fire, earth/fire, earth/nrg all do well.
Corr- pretty much the same powers as defenders, scourge is nice on most attacks but kind of
for psi.Stalkers- yeah.
Widows/forts- also yeah.
Brutes- SS does well.
MM- most *can* do pretty well. Poison/thugs or Poison/demons are really nice but so are pain/thugs or pain/demons.
PBs- can do ok they have pretty high resists and a few self heals.
WS- well like I said, almost any AT can pvp.
Controllers- They are good teammates, but solo, I'm not sure they are as powerful as something like a dom or a def/corr. I used to pvp on my ill/rad and my fire/kin pre-i13. Now I would say something like a ill/time or a ill/cold. Grav/ta is fun for disruption as is mind/force field.
Squishies get base resists of 40%.
Base to-hit is 50%.
Heal Decay means your heals do progressively less and less.
Diminishing Returns means that the numbers you see in mids are higher than they actually are in PVP. (They are diminished.) See Arcanaville's guide for more info on DR:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=126132
Many attack powers do different damage in PVP. (Big examples: Stalkers Spirit Sharks and Tankers' Fossilize.)
Some defense sets also get something called elusivity. It can be godly on /EAs. Here's the info on that:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_M...sivity_and_PvP
That's pretty much everything.
Quote:
Exactly my point...|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
But that's an example of one particular powerset combination, and is not representative of the entire AT.
Just because your Fire/Ice tank is no good in PvP, it does not automatically mean that ALL tanks suck in PvP. A Fire/SS/Earth tank is actually pretty good. I specifically mentioned power set differences for a reason. It applies to every AT. A Psi/EM blaster is awesome in PvP. A Dual Pistols/Ice, not so much. They're both blasters, but the power sets chosen make all the difference between whether they're going to rock or suck in PvP. Similarly, a Regen scrapper will be significantly better in PvP than a Willpower scrapper. The self-heals make the difference there. Willpower's reliance on resistance, defense and regeneration make it awesome in PvE, but in PvP the defense and regeneration might as well not even be there because of the emphasis on accuracy and the likelyhood of being killed in seconds flat, long before your regeneration has a chance to heal you. That's what I meant about any AT being viable, but specific power set choices make the difference. |
Most AT's have powerset combos that completely suck in PvP, and there's ZERO
way to know that from their PvE performance.
Experienced PvPer's have learned (mostly from trying them) what works, and
what completely blows chunks.
Little Johnny (or any new or sufficiently inexperienced PvPer) is going to have NO
clue and if he's also a person that is iffy on the whole PvP thing from the get-go,
he's going to have a seriously sucktastic time and will be even more convinced
that PvP is this game is assinine.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Quote:
Lets see. Take a very complicated game, where you design and enhance character in increasingly complex ways. Have your player base challenged by increasingly tough PvE mobs. |
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
Little Johnny (or any new or sufficiently inexperienced PvPer) is going to have NO clue and if he's also a person that is iffy on the whole PvP thing from the get-go,he's going to have a seriously sucktastic time and will be even more convinced
that PvP is this game is assinine. 4 |
Okay, now make some zones where they can fight each other. BUT WAIT. Change every single rule about how everything operates. heh. BUT WAIT! THERE IS MORE. Do not, repeat, DO NOT tell the player entering that zone that every single one of their powers now operates completely differently. ROFLMAO Okay, I gotta end this now, can't breath...
I'm sure this question's been asked before, but I just have to know, since it's really driving me nuts here.
In pvp, what are the exact buffs and debuffs that are applied to the character?
I know there's a boost to damage and damage resistance, but I've never read anything about a random debuff to defence and recharge time that seems to keep cropping up. I ask because I've recently been working on a build that has a big focus on recharge time. At its current state, I can achieve (just) perma hasten, and have had perma essence boost and inner light working rather well.
However, when I step into the arena, or into a pvp zone, those bonuses disappear, and by a terrifyingly large margin. At first, I thought it was due to incarnate powers, the alpha slot simply working to either debuff your stats or just turns itself off, but I've had a sudden decline in my defence as well, and that was when I was using Cardiac, which does nothing to your defence.
A friend of mine even says he has better defence and accuracy without Nerve, which is what put me in that mind set. However, recently playing around with Agility, I found that it still provides a buff of some description, even if it is small.
It's not so much me complaining, as it is wondering if it was there for a reason. if it is, I can adapt and make a new build, no harm done.
If anyone can shed some light on this, I would be happy.