Interface, Reactive, which does more damage?
By
boppaholic,
Posted on: 2011-11-13 22:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
The DoT averages something to the effect of 50 damage per EDIT: attack (not per proc).
The damage resistance debuff caps at -10% with 4 stacks, and the stacks last 8 seconds. Subsequent procs do not refresh the whole stack, each application has its own timer and procs after 4 appear to replace the one with the least duration remaining.
I very highly doubt you will ever get comparable performance from the debuff that the DoT proc will give you, especially considering the debuffs from Interface are resistable.
As a note, the Spectral and Preemptive DOTs do the same damage as Reactive, and Cognitive and Degenerative do 80% of that damage, but in (theoretically) more exotic types.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
Solo? Probably the DoT. On a large team the debuff might be better though, it really depends on how many people are running Reactive since if there are several the debuff will probably be capped even at 25% chance to proc.
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Quote:
From my understanding (from others who seem to know what they're talking about), the DoT procs every time an attack hits. It's the tick's of damage (up to 5 ticks from each attack) that have the 75% chance to proc. Each tick does something like 13.36 damage... so on average, each attack will do (0.75)*(5)*(13.36) = 50.1 damage. In other words, every attack that lands will do on average an extra 50.1 damage. That's better than a purple damage proc... actually it's better than a purple damage proc plus a regular damage proc. |
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
The DoT averages something to the effect of 50 damage per proc.
The damage resistance debuff caps at -10% with 4 stacks, and the stacks last 8 seconds. Subsequent procs do not refresh the whole stack, each application has its own timer and procs after 4 appear to replace the one with the least duration remaining. |
For the average person, this will increase one's DPS by about 30. If you flip it, choose the 75% -res debuff, there is still no way that you'll manage to recreate that 30 DPS. In leagues, you still might as well stick to the 75%DoT version because of it's commonality you will still likely cap the -res debuff to 10% on a single target. If you were in a team of say 2-4, or if you were the only incarnate on your team... then it might benefit you to go the 75% res debuff route. But in the end, you really should stick with the 75% DoT version.
BUUUUUTTTTTT..... now that there are new interfaces out, and a lot more people may start substituting their Fire DoT for one of the other types, you will become less likely to get a team to stack up to the max of -10% resistance debuff (this is the equivalent of a 10% damage boost to the whole team, btw). So you could be a team player by being the guy who makes sure that the target is debuffed as much as possible while everyone else stacks their many many many DoT procs. Soon, AVs will be melting like minions in a blizzard :P
Quote:
The bolded portion is incorrect. The proc fires at a rate stated by the specific Interface power. The math you're repeating is correct, but assumes the 75% chance to proc on attack, or Radial T4, to get 50.1 damage per attack. Note that the chance for each additional tick to occur after the first does not change and is always 75%, so the math is much cleaner looking when you also have a 75% chance to fire the proc per attack.|
Originally Posted by boppaholic
From my understanding (from others who seem to know what they're talking about), the DoT procs every time an attack hits. It's the tick's of damage (up to 5 ticks from each attack) that have the 75% chance to proc. Each tick does something like 13.36 damage... so on average, each attack will do (0.75)*(5)*(13.36) = 50.1 damage....
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The average damage per proc is actually 13.36 + 13.36*(4)*(0.75) = 53.44 (which is trivially different but still worth noting). I also fixed the wording of my first post to reflect the difference.
This is very easy to prove if you happen to have an Interface with a DoT proc slotted. Hit something with single target attacks and watch for the initial Interface proc. You will, over time, see that it does not fire every time you attack.
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Originally Posted by boppaholic
...you will become less likely to get a team to stack up to the max of -10% resistance debuff (this is the equivalent of a 10% damage boost to the whole team, btw)...
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@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
AV resists don't affect res debuffs, though, so they work fine on AVs.
Damage resistance resists resistible resist debuffs (how's that for a confusing statement?), but the math of it works out such that -10% resist always means the target takes one-tenth more damage than they would otherwise.
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I was under the impression that the Incarnate content bent that rule, but I could be mistaken.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
AV resists don't affect res debuffs, though, so they work fine on AVs.
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@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
I haven't tested it rigorously, but I've hit a couple of AVs in the trials with Surveillance and checked their stats, and resist debuffs seemed to be working normally on them.
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Anything with damage resistance of any kind will resist it. Back before they nerfed this into the ground it was an awsome incarnate ability. Now its kind of meh and is just really fluff at this point.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
AV resists don't affect res debuffs, though, so they work fine on AVs.
Damage resistance resists resistible resist debuffs (how's that for a confusing statement?), but the math of it works out such that -10% resist always means the target takes one-tenth more damage than they would otherwise. |
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Indeed, but that's true of any resistance debuff. What is the nerf you speak of? I'm not aware of any nerf to Reactive at any point in time.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Anything with damage resistance of any kind will resist it.
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The whole point of having resist debuffs be resistable is to make their effect constant regardless of target. For instance, assuming a 10% debuff against targets with varying resistances hit by a 100 point attack you get:|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Anything with damage resistance of any kind will resist it. Back before they nerfed this into the ground it was an awsome incarnate ability. Now its kind of meh and is just really fluff at this point.
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No resistance
Debuff drops resistance to 0% - (10% * (1 - 0.0)) = -10%
Normal attack = 100 damage
Debuffed attack = 110 damage
10% more damage is dealt
50% resistance
Debuff drops resistance to 50% - (10% * (1 - 0.5)) = 45%
Normal attack = 50 damage
Debuffed attack = 55 damage
10% more damage is dealt
-20% resistance (vulnerable to damage type)
Debuff drops resistance to -20% - (10% * (1 - (-0.2))) = -32%
Normal attack = 120 damage
Debuffed attack = 132 damage
10% more damage is dealt
Regardless of the target, a full stack of Reactive debuffs will make them take 10% more damage from every attack than they would have without the debuff. It may only lower their actual resistance value by a couple of percent, but that will still lead to 10% more damage getting through since the pre-debuff damage is being resisted by the same amount as the debuff.
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Quote:
I believe he's referring to the change to how Reactive works on the "rain" powers. Originally, Reactive had a chance to proc on each and every single tick of damage on powers like Rain of Fire, Ice Storm, and Freezing Rain (to name a few), turning these powers into pseudo-nukes. This was changed into a chance to tick at something like every few seconds iirc.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Indeed, but that's true of any resistance debuff. What is the nerf you speak of? I'm not aware of any nerf to Reactive at any point in time.
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Also, if i'm remembering the mechanics correctly from what i've read, res debuff is resisted by damage resistance by the same percentage as the actual damage resistance by type. I.E. if you have 50% S/L resistance and you're hit with a s/l resist debuff that's say, 10%, your damage resistance would actually only take a 5% hit as you're resisting half of the debuff. BUT, if it were a 10% debuff to energy resistance, and you had no resistance to that, then you get hit with the full 10% debuff.
Not sure that it works like this in all cases, but i'm pretty sure i read this somewhere...prolly paragon wiki or somethin.
Edit#2: While my over simplified example above actually came out right...the actual equation is a little more complex...lol. http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Damage_Resistance is where i remembered reading it.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
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Ah, yes... I'd forgotten about that change. Still, it's hyperbole to call the power "fluff", it's still quite good now.
And to be clear, this was a nerf/fix to all interface powers, not just Reactive. While melting things with Reactive-boosted Burn and Freezing Rain was spectacular, it was also pretty impressive to hammer their toHit en mass with Diamagnetic.
The effect of Reactive in rains and patches was so strong that it actually shaped iTrial tactics: one person or maybe two people with a rain or patch damage powers could lock down a prisoner spawn door in the BAF, leading to the prevalence of the "doors" approach. Post nerf/fix, there was a migration to the current vogue of choke points, because fewer people could lock down doors effectively.
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American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
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Shadowslip: 50 DDC
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Quote:
Do you have any reading matter that proves this? The reactive interface proc has had a lot of literature thrown around from multiple sources, and the one consistency tends to be that they're never consistent. I am basing my knowledge from the following thread: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...84#post3929284 And more specifically, what Arcanaville had to say on the matter. According to Arcanaville's initial findings, "I'm not quite sure yet if the DoT will actually be a 75% chance to run a full DoT. Thinking about it, its possible that we aren't getting a 75% chance to *have* a DoT, we might be getting a DoT with a 75% chance to proc *each tick* of the damage. I'm in the process of engineering some test to try to confirm all of this, and I'll post when I have more information. "|
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
The bolded portion is incorrect. The proc fires at a rate stated by the specific Interface power. The math you're repeating is correct, but assumes the 75% chance to proc on attack, or Radial T4, to get 50.1 damage per attack. Note that the chance for each additional tick to occur after the first does not change and is always 75%, so the math is much cleaner looking when you also have a 75% chance to fire the proc per attack.
The average damage per proc is actually 13.36 + 13.36*(4)*(0.75) = 53.44 (which is trivially different but still worth noting). I also fixed the wording of my first post to reflect the difference. This is very easy to prove if you happen to have an Interface with a DoT proc slotted. Hit something with single target attacks and watch for the initial Interface proc. You will, over time, see that it does not fire every time you attack. |
This isn't enough to go off of perhaps, but my understanding is that it's not a 75% chance for the proc to do DoT, it's that each tick of damage has a 75% chance to occur. If you have a reference, please post it, I would love to read it and perhaps get a final understanding on the matter.
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Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
This is almost always going to be false, because, again, the debuffs done by Interface procs are resistable and absolutely no target that your mathematical, theoretical DPS is going to matter on is going to be fully affected by it.
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Say the same enemy (50% resistance) is attacked by a hero who normally would do 100 damage but now has had his damage increased by 10%. The hero now attacks for 110 damage. The enemy resists 50% of that, thus taking 55 damage. This is the same end result as that of the 10% debuffer. I hope it's clear now.
But as a lasting note on resistance debuffing, it is superior to damage boosting for the following reasons: Resistance debuffing also enhances the damage that procs do; there is no way to go above damage cap, but with resistance debuffing you effectively can; resistance debuffing not only enhances your damage, it enhances everyone's damage (on the debuffed target).
Which side does more damage? 75% Chance for Fire 25% chance for -Res or vice versa?
I know the damage resistance stacks up to 4 times, does each time it stack refresh the duration?