Street Justice could be the highest single target DPS set in game when taken by Scrappers
By
all_hell,
Posted on: 2011-10-04 22:57 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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A nerf?|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Really? You mean after you use Sweeping Cross you can't build more combo levels? You can't use the build up power that gives you 3 levels automatically?
It's not like building up to combo level 3 is difficult, and it's not like you have to wait 2 minutes before you can do it again. It is perfectly feasible to go Combo-->Spinning Strike-->Combo-->Sweeping Cross (While Spinning Strike is recharging)-->Combat Readiness-->Crushing Uppercut. That way you use all 3 finishers in an order that makes sense, and nothing is being made weaker by using anything else. More to the point: In a set that is already being criticized for having "weak" AoE (I disagree, but that's beside the point), why are you so determined that 1 of the 2 AoEs in the set should have nearly half of it's potential damage taken away from it? Because that would be the result if Sweeping Cross were no longer a finisher, it would lose a large chunk of it's damage potential when combo levels no longer affect it's damage output. Why are you calling for a nerf to the AoE of a set that is already being seen as not having enough in the first place? |
I'm not sure if you don't understand the difference between buffs and nerfs or you have simply chosen to speak before running the numbers but I am proposing a buff to the AOE damage potential of StJ. Not a nerf.
With my proposal to change Sweeping Cross to a builder and not a finisher, the chain of Builder -> Builder -> Sweeping Cross -> Spinning Strike (Or even cutting out one of the builders if you get your recharge high enough) has far higher AOE DPS than anything Street Justice can get under it's current implementation.
Cutting single target builders out by adding outside AOE attacks from secondary pools, power pools and epic pools only increases the potential of the buff I am proposing.
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Do the math.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Now who's being condescending?
We both have a perfectly logical reason for not wanting Sweeping Cross to become a builder instead of a finisher: If Combo Levels no longer affect it's damage output, the set's AoE damage potential is lower. Not opinion, FACT. If one of the set's 2 AoEs is changed to do less damage, the set as a whole will do less AoE damage. If you don't like the fact that Sweeping Cross "makes the other finishers weaker" (which is completely illogical), you have every right to skip it. It's funny how you'll call someone a fanboy while you're demanding changes to a set that will make the set worse, for no better reason than YOU don't like it the way it is. I suppose that makes ME a fanboy too, just because I think the set is fine the way it is set up. And I AM looking at it objectively. The change you are proposing will make the set worse at something it is already being viewed as being bad at, but you don't care because in your mind Sweeping Cross makes the other finishers weaker (which still makes no sense) |
What you are claiming as fact is misinformation. So yes, that does make you a fanboy if you are blindly defending something without do any research.
You are looking at the aspect of making one AOE weaker by my proposal, how about the other end of the equation you are ignoring? The fact that that change also makes the more useful AOE stronger when they are used in unison for greater AOE DPS.
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Yes this is completely accurate, the problem is that using it in such a way doesn't contribute at all to the set's mechanic. My proposal fixes that.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Even if you use Sweeping Cross at combo level 0 it's more powerful than most cones. If you don't want it to be a finisher, just use it after Spinning Strike. Problem solved?
I still use it as a finisher if Spinning Strike is recharging. That's fine if that never happens to you. The power is still good even without combo levels. |
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It only doesn't contribute to the set's mechanics because you choose to play it that way. The way I play it, it does. Don't change my game just because you don't like to play the set the way it was designed.
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
Yes this is completely accurate, the problem is that using it in such a way doesn't contribute at all to the set's mechanic. My proposal fixes that.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Heavy Blow isn't really skippable (Unless you are a tank). You have to take one of the first two powers and it is superior to Initial Strike.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
You're right, I was incorrect that CU beats KO with no combo.
I do not concede that sweeping cross would be better as a builder because that would not only deny lowbies an excellent use of the combo system, it would also strip it of its secondary effects which are themselves very useful, and it would replace it with, as you say, a wildly inferior finisher in one of the ST attacks. Heavy blow is easily the most skippable thing in the set and that would be even more true if it were a finisher. You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too - sweeping cross as a builder but without reducing its stats in any way from the combo 3 version, meanwhile ditching a power that you already wanted to ditch anyway. This makes the set way less playable at low level or on the cheap but who cares, there's farming to do. Or, reduce the stats of sweeping cross and give the set worse aoe in exchange for slightly easier comboing with SS. "My solution" is to enjoy the set as it actually is. The devs didn't make it the top aoe performer because they didn't. That's all there is to it. I doubt it crossed their minds, in fact, they appear to have been more focused on "is this set fun?" They succeeded brilliantly at that, and it happens that the set also has very good aoe besides. Why isn't that good enough? |
I do admit changing Sweeping cross would make lowbies less effective but regardless of how much you farm, I guarantee any character that actually gets played is going to spend a lot more time beyond level 18 than below.
I actually like Sweeping Cross's animation speed and damage even at combo level 0. I think it is very effective and far superior to comparable powers like Shadow Maul. My only problem with the power is that it either costs combo points which I'd rather spend on SS, or I use it at combo level 0, in which case it bypasses the mechanic completely which I don't think is a fair solution.
The phrase you used "have your cake and eat it too" is actually a fair way of describing my proposal but it also gives me an idea of an apt amendment to it: instead of removing it as a finisher, how about altering finishers so that if they are used at combo level 0, they act as a builder? Seems fair to everyone and a suitable buff.
Finally, I'd like to say I appreciated your post. I am not saying that in some kind of condescending or snarky manner, I thought it was well thought out and I enjoyed reading it.
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If you use Combo Builder Attack x3 -> Spinning Strike -> Combo Builder Attack x3 -> Sweeping Cross -> Repeat, you don't lose out on any of the Level 3 Finisher, and it's easy enough to get the recharge to pull this off! |
Originally Posted by Giant2005
Heavy Blow isn't really skippable (Unless you are a tank). You have to take one of the first two powers and it is superior to Initial Strike.
I do admit changing Sweeping cross would make lowbies less effective but regardless of how much you farm, I guarantee any character that actually gets played is going to spend a lot more time beyond level 18 than below. I actually like Sweeping Cross's animation speed and damage even at combo level 0. I think it is very effective and far superior to comparable powers like Shadow Maul. My only problem with the power is that it either costs combo points which I'd rather spend on SS, or I use it at combo level 0, in which case it bypasses the mechanic completely which I don't think is a fair solution. The phrase you used "have your cake and eat it too" is actually a fair way of describing my proposal but it also gives me an idea of an apt amendment to it: instead of removing it as a finisher, how about altering finishers so that if they are used at combo level 0, they act as a builder? Seems fair to everyone and a suitable buff. Finally, I'd like to say I appreciated your post. I am not saying that in some kind of condescending or snarky manner, I thought it was well thought out and I enjoyed reading it. |
Now, if you get the recharge to surpass this, isn't that all apart of finding the sets best DPS? Look at Dual Blades, it's best DPS chain isn't even a Combo.
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It's slightly better DPA but I have a sneaking suspicion that initial strike's minuscule cast and recharge times make it suitable for some chains that would be more difficult or expensive with heavy blow. My SJer is still in the teens so I haven't actually conjured up a build yet.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
Heavy Blow isn't really skippable (Unless you are a tank). You have to take one of the first two powers and it is superior to Initial Strike.
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| The phrase you used "have your cake and eat it too" is actually a fair way of describing my proposal but it also gives me an idea of an apt amendment to it: instead of removing it as a finisher, how about altering finishers so that if they are used at combo level 0, they act as a builder? Seems fair to everyone and a suitable buff. |
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| Finally, I'd like to say I appreciated your post. I am not saying that in some kind of condescending or snarky manner, I thought it was well thought out and I enjoyed reading it. |
So has someone done "teh maths" to say where StJ single target DPS fits in with other Brute sets?
You know I find this interesting that someone wants to change SJ because they believe it is broke and gets worse with gaining levels.
My question is, if this is the case, why did this person not make his opinion known during beta testing. In addition, if this is the case, it makes sense that the developers disagree with you; therefore, no changes were made concerning changing sweeping cross from a finisher to a builder and moving heavy blow above it.
However, if one did not participate in the beta testing and they are now complaining about something that they do like and believe their idea is best. Well, it seems that crying aloud after the horses got out of the barn when the doors were opened is useless. Everyone had his or her opportunity to participate in the beta testing. Thus, they could test SJ then. However, since this did not happen, the onus is on them. An opportunity is lost.
Personally, I find Street Justice to be the one melee power this game should have had from the beginning. It is the perfect power for the natural archetype. The combo's and the finish really make it a unique and desirable primary or secondary power for the melee artists. Shoot, I'd like to have seen it available to the blaster/corruptor, or something very similar in scope and nature.
My stalker is a SJ/DM. Currently, at level 8, I progressed faster in levels than I have with other toons recently. When I finally obtained sweeping cross (I chose both 1st lvl attacks) and used it in the combo in order, goose bumps raised on my arms. I was surprised to see the AOE cone (though I knew it was possible) takes out my primary target and the hapless buffoon standing over his right shoulder at the time.
I'm very pleased with this new power set. I like it as much as Super Strength, which by far is my favorite power for a tanker/brute and martial arts and kinetics. I do not want to see anything changed on this power until it has spent a long time in use when they can mine data to find any quirks or problems based on and over a longer period than just a week of actual use. Give it a year and see what things are like at that time.
Alternatively, all the powers have some quirk about them. That is what makes them unique. Case in point, War Mace/Hammers molasses affect in activation and recharging. It is frustrating to me; however, I am living with it and adjusting. Maybe people should give SJ the same opportunity before concluding it is broke and must be changed because it supposedly has an ineffective AOE or one gets worse over the other.
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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Umm, your math is highly suspect. If it worked the way you wanted it to, the set as a whole will deal less AoE damage. It is true. Chaining the AoEs will deal less damage than using builders between them. |
Originally Posted by Giant2005
Do the math.
What you are claiming as fact is misinformation. So yes, that does make you a fanboy if you are blindly defending something without do any research. You are looking at the aspect of making one AOE weaker by my proposal, how about the other end of the equation you are ignoring? The fact that that change also makes the more useful AOE stronger when they are used in unison for greater AOE DPS. |
Builder-Builder-Builder-Sweeping Cross-Builder-Builder-Builder-Spinning Strike will deal more damage than Builder-Builder-Sweeping Cross-Spinning Strike.
If you are playing on a team, or at higher difficulty, there will be a boss or LT you can focus the single target builders on, and the AoEs will take out the minions.
Your way would have the LT or boss still alive after chaining the AoEs, and the minions might be alive too, because Sweeping Cross would deal less damage if it were a builder.
Your proposal only works when you chain the powers in a specific order. And unless I'm mistaken, wasn't the set designed in such a way that using the powers in a specific order is unnecessary?
You're trying to defeat the entire purpose of making the combo builders and finishers interchangeable by insisting that there is only one order you can possibly use the powers in. The set was designed specifically so you don't have to use them in a certain order for it to work right.
Why are you insisting that YOUR way is the only correct way to play the set? Because that's exactly what you are doing, you're saying "It should work like THIS, because THIS is the only correct way for it to work" and you're completely ignoring the point of the way the set is designed when you do so.
Also, hilarious that the set is only 2 days old and some people have already decided what the one and only correct way to play it is.
The way it is now, you have an AoE finisher available at no later than level 4 on any AT that takes it. Why is that a bad thing? If you don't like Sweeping Cross, I see no rule anywhere that says you HAVE to take it. Just skip it, and for the love of Pete stop trying to make the devs change the set so you can have your way.
It is fine the way it is, the only people that even CARE about AoE DPS are the hardcore min/maxers, most people who play the set just want to have fun punching and kneeing people with a cool looking and sounding set of powers.
Which is exactly what the set was designed for - looking cool and performing decently without having to use a frigging calculator to figure out your attack chain.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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From what little experience I have, I'd wager it performs better than decently. A lot of quick recharging attacks to make the brutes and scrappers happy, combo bonus damage to make the tankers happy, AoEs to make the stalkers happy, and debuffs and mitigation too? There's a little of something for almost everyone in the set. Its a nice toolset for all the melee ATs.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Which is exactly what the set was designed for - looking cool and performing decently without having to use a frigging calculator to figure out your attack chain.
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And oh yeah, you don't need the calculator either.
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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This is true when it comes to raw damage but the second chain you listed would have far greater AOE damage per second which is far more valuable.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Umm, your math is highly suspect. If it worked the way you wanted it to, the set as a whole will deal less AoE damage. It is true. Chaining the AoEs will deal less damage than using builders between them.
Builder-Builder-Builder-Sweeping Cross-Builder-Builder-Builder-Spinning Strike will deal more damage than Builder-Builder-Sweeping Cross-Spinning Strike. |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Your proposal only works when you chain the powers in a specific order. And unless I'm mistaken, wasn't the set designed in such a way that using the powers in a specific order is unnecessary?
You're trying to defeat the entire purpose of making the combo builders and finishers interchangeable by insisting that there is only one order you can possibly use the powers in. The set was designed specifically so you don't have to use them in a certain order for it to work right. |
If SC was a builder, you don't have to run Builder Builder, SC, SS. As long as the finisher (SS) is at the end, the order of attacks is irrelevant. That statement applies to the set as it is in game now and also as it would be after my proposed amendment.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Why are you insisting that YOUR way is the only correct way to play the set? Because that's exactly what you are doing, you're saying "It should work like THIS, because THIS is the only correct way for it to work" and you're completely ignoring the point of the way the set is designed when you do so.
Also, hilarious that the set is only 2 days old and some people have already decided what the one and only correct way to play it is. |
You can take the set and ignore all of it's powers and only use pool attacks if you like, the decision wouldn't be wrong - it would be inefficient. If you don't care about how efficient your character is nor the set, then why are you even replying to my posts at all? Any change suggested can't be considered negative if you simply don't care.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The way it is now, you have an AoE finisher available at no later than level 4 on any AT that takes it. Why is that a bad thing? If you don't like Sweeping Cross, I see no rule anywhere that says you HAVE to take it. Just skip it, and for the love of Pete stop trying to make the devs change the set so you can have your way.
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That is only my opinion but I suspect it is one that would be shared by a majority of the playerbase.
Even if you are opposed to farming, you won't be below 18 for much more than a few hours of gameplay.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It is fine the way it is, the only people that even CARE about AoE DPS are the hardcore min/maxers, most people who play the set just want to have fun punching and kneeing people with a cool looking and sounding set of powers.
Which is exactly what the set was designed for - looking cool and performing decently without having to use a frigging calculator to figure out your attack chain. |
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I particpated in Beta testing.|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
My question is, if this is the case, why did this person not make his opinion known during beta testing. In addition, if this is the case, it makes sense that the developers disagree with you; therefore, no changes were made concerning changing sweeping cross from a finisher to a builder and moving heavy blow above it.
However, if one did not participate in the beta testing and they are now complaining about something that they do like and believe their idea is best. Well, it seems that crying aloud after the horses got out of the barn when the doors were opened is useless. Everyone had his or her opportunity to participate in the beta testing. Thus, they could test SJ then. However, since this did not happen, the onus is on them. An opportunity is lost. |
I however did not get to test StJ on Beta. StJ was only on there for a matter of days before it was pulled without notice.
I made a StJ character and before he got his level bump so I could do some high level tests, he was gone.
I suspect a lot of people were in that same position and if not that same position; In a position where they expected StJ would be there for the duration and chose to test Beam and Time Manipulation or some of the proliferated sets before suddenly, their opportunity to test StJ was gone.
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I distinctly recall being told Street Justice was going to be pulled early in the beta when open beta first started. This was fairly common knowledge as well.
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
I however did not get to test StJ on Beta. StJ was only on there for a matter of days before it was pulled without notice.
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Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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Oh, well this is something I had no knowledge of. Also I have to challenge whether it was common knowledge or not because none of the people I associate with knew it was being taken away.
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
I distinctly recall being told Street Justice was going to be pulled early in the beta when open beta first started. This was fairly common knowledge as well.
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Street Justice was pulled before Open Beta started. This was one of Snow Globe's main complaints in another thread.
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
I distinctly recall being told Street Justice was going to be pulled early in the beta when open beta first started. This was fairly common knowledge as well.
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Odd considering I tested it in open beta. It was only a few days, but it was there.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
I'll put it this way:
I min/max to some extent, but not to the point where only the most efficient thing possible is acceptable, which is where you seem to be coming from.
The ONLY place AoE DPS matters is in solo farming. On teams, you have teammates that will provide damage as well, so it doesn't matter in the slightest if you're dealing 30 damage less than you would if you could browbeat the devs into changing a power set to suit your preferences.
Since when does Efficiency = Fun? Mowing through things so fast that people have no idea what's going on, let alone have time to converse with their teammates isn't fun in my book. That's work. I don't know about you, but I don't work video games, I play them.
Maybe instead of insisting that Street Justice be changed into another AoE-spamming cookie cutter power set, why not just accept that maybe it's not your cup of tea and play a set that is already what you want it to be. There are a lot of people playing this game, and surprise, surprise, not all of them enjoy the same things as you. So, since not everyone enjoys the same things, why are you so damn determined that we should only have things that work how YOU want them to?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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To bad then. Regardless of this fact, Street Justice is out for 2 days now. How can you or anyone else pass judgment on something in that period? Did you spend 48 hours straight playing? Probably not. No one and I mean no one can make an informed optimal decision in 2 days time in this situation. Moreover, by optimal I mean the best-informed and researched decision. You are not making such a decision. Yours is based on your experience, gut feeling, and what you have seen in the past. That is what we call making a decision influenced by a bias(s). When decisions are made this manner, they normally end up making a decision that turns out completely wrong or with mediocre results.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
I particpated in Beta testing.
I however did not get to test StJ on Beta. StJ was only on there for a matter of days before it was pulled without notice. I made a StJ character and before he got his level bump so I could do some high level tests, he was gone. I suspect a lot of people were in that same position and if not that same position; In a position where they expected StJ would be there for the duration and chose to test Beam and Time Manipulation or some of the proliferated sets before suddenly, their opportunity to test StJ was gone. |
You read my post. In it, I recommended spending a lot of time using this in the manner for which is was designed. Gather your data (you can do so by copying the combat status) and save it for later use. Just using min/max numbers does not give a true representation of the data. In this case, what is the mean average of damage from SJ at every level and the overall median damage? Then compare that to whatever attack power you want. Who knows, the data may reflect that you are completely wrong and any changes made would indeed break the power.
Of course, it could show some kind of problem that needs rectifying. In this case, you have researched analyzed data to prove your case instead of the age-old stance, "Because I feel, I believe, or I want it so" argument does not have any influence on anyone. That is because it is an opinion supported only by feeling nothing more. Only true hard data can do that. Try that and see what comes about this whole thing in say, 3 months. Then make a decision based on what you have it will either support your position or it will not. That is the only true way to influence any type of change.
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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Could not have phrased that better. I play on teams most of the time, and AOE is never a concern. There are plenty of other builds and ATs out there that can do it better than StJ ever will. But, bring on that AV. I watched a spine/fire flail against one with not much effect, but I chewed right through him. As opposed, I take down 1 boss at the speed he takes down the rest of the spawn.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The ONLY place AoE DPS matters is in solo farming. On teams, you have teammates that will provide damage as well, so it doesn't matter in the slightest if you're dealing 30 damage less than you would if you could browbeat the devs into changing a power set to suit your preferences.
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I like having our strengths and weaknesses. StJ is no major AOE powerset, that is fine, I am perfectly happy pounding that AV into the ground.
Okay, admitting up front that I haven't read the whole thread, but I did want to address something: unless they changed it, Gloom doesn't affect combo levels at all. I haven't bought StJ live yet (because I was expecting my points and they didn't show up yet!) but while on beta I could hit with a builder, use the Blackwand (which has a considerably longer animation) and swap to another combo builder or finisher without effect on my combo level. After a level bump, I was using Gloom and Dark Obliteration on my StJ/Regen Brute in between attacks. You get around 5 seconds before the combo level drops on its own, and unlike DB using another attack doesn't break it - that's plenty of time for whatever you feel like adding in.
As for Fiery Embrace... I don't know whether it's 25% or 45%, but in a dispute between what the in-game numbers show and what Mid's shows, I'm going to use the in-game numbers every time. Despite assuming that they work to be as accurate as possible, there have been numerous instances where I've found information in Mid's to simply be incorrect (most often when related to PvP numbers, especially in relation to set bonuses) or some things not flagged correctly in the database (heck, it happens with the devs for CoH!). But if the in-game numbers show 25%, that's what I'm going to believe until I see otherwise, regardless of what Mid's has to say about it.
Now, back to reading the rest of the thread...
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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No it wasn't.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Street Justice was pulled before Open Beta started. This was one of Snow Globe's main complaints in another thread.
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
I particpated in Beta testing.
I however did not get to test StJ on Beta. StJ was only on there for a matter of days before it was pulled without notice. |
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
I distinctly recall being told Street Justice was going to be pulled early in the beta when open beta first started. This was fairly common knowledge as well.
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
This is true when it comes to raw damage but the second chain you listed would have far greater AOE damage per second which is far more valuable.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The ONLY place AoE DPS matters is in solo farming. On teams, you have teammates that will provide damage as well, so it doesn't matter in the slightest if you're dealing 30 damage less than you would if you could browbeat the devs into changing a power set to suit your preferences.
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That's where I think StJ gets a low AoE vibe - while it has decent AoEs, especially at high combo levels, it doesn't feel like good AoE burst damage because you can't chain them together at the high combo levels and in order to maximize the burst you also need to enter a spawn with a combo level already built up (not actually that hard in my experience on beta... like I said, the combo levels stick around for a bit) or else build it up after you get there. Is it going to calculate out to be terrible AoE DPS? Probably not. But it's also not going to drop 10 mobs as soon as you enter a spawn, either, so there's this feeling of "subpar" performance when looking at the AoEs themselves they're fairly competitive.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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"Crushing Uppercut's crit breaks a rule I don't remember set by a developer who's been gone for years."|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Aside from concept (Which is important but I am focusing on min/max), but from a min/max standpoint Scrappers and this set are leagues beyond Brutes with this set. Every one of their attacks with the set can critical, in fact, I'd say Crushing Uppercut breaks the original rule of no Scrapper critical exceeding a 12.666 Brawl Index with the exception of Headsplitter (and I forget the original reason but that was stated by Geko, the original designer a long time ago).
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| On Brutes the set's AOE is pretty crappy when compared to Super Strength. Likewise, the single target DPS of each set when min/maxing means you are going to take Gloom because it is one of the highest DPA attacks in the game. The thing here is, once again you get slightly penalized as a Street Justice Brute because by mixing in other attacks you run the risk of losing combo points which is losing DPS. Since the highest single target attack chains involve spamming Gloom this will hurt Street Justice. Even when fighting with the 7.5% debuff it still lacks in single target DPS compared to Super Strength and the duration of that debuff is so short it becomes very minute against anything higher then an even con. (Its base 5 seconds even con). |
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| Ultimately, this is probably one of the highest single target DPS sets in the game For Scrappers but for Brutes its still in the shadow of Super Strength which superior in AOE and single target DPS. |
(For what it's worth, my own at-a-glance calcs at this early date show that StJ's single-target DPS is mediocre on a Scrapper, well behind Martial Arts. When you toss in the combo bonuses and the RES debuff from Rib Cracker, you might be able to reach respectable levels, but it's not yet clear to me that fully leveraging the combo system is optimal on a high-end build; in other words, in order to make sure that Crushing Uppercut/Sweeping Cross are always at their full damage potential, you have to spend extra time on lower-DPA attacks. Anyway, the set is pretty clearly designed to strike a balance between single-target and AoE damage potential, and there it succeeds.)
(More to the point, Crushing Uppercut is awesomesauce, but one great-DPA attack doesn't necessarily make for great DPS.)
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I tested it in Open Beta. It was there for at least a couple days after beta opened. I made my character, requested a level bump, waited a day, and then tested him.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Street Justice was pulled before Open Beta started. This was one of Snow Globe's main complaints in another thread.
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You're right, I was incorrect that CU beats KO with no combo.
I do not concede that sweeping cross would be better as a builder because that would not only deny lowbies an excellent use of the combo system, it would also strip it of its secondary effects which are themselves very useful, and it would replace it with, as you say, a wildly inferior finisher in one of the ST attacks. Heavy blow is easily the most skippable thing in the set and that would be even more true if it were a finisher.
You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too - sweeping cross as a builder but without reducing its stats in any way from the combo 3 version, meanwhile ditching a power that you already wanted to ditch anyway. This makes the set way less playable at low level or on the cheap but who cares, there's farming to do. Or, reduce the stats of sweeping cross and give the set worse aoe in exchange for slightly easier comboing with SS.
"My solution" is to enjoy the set as it actually is. The devs didn't make it the top aoe performer because they didn't. That's all there is to it. I doubt it crossed their minds, in fact, they appear to have been more focused on "is this set fun?" They succeeded brilliantly at that, and it happens that the set also has very good aoe besides. Why isn't that good enough?