City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Freedom? Hardly

2short2care

By 2short2care,
Posted on: 2011-09-06 24:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggelakis View Post
Heck, they don't even have to spend $5, if they can find a good deal on a box set. The first time any retail code is added to a game account, a token is granted (only one token total, not per box)... and I've seen box sets as low as $1.50. Just "caveat emptor"...make sure your purchase says "factory sealed" or "unused code", or you have no recourse after purchase if you've been bilked.
/this.

 

Posted

If I may (and I apologize for not seeing this thread sooner)...

It sounds like Death_Badger's complaint is not that they want access to Incarnates for free; rather, that they want to be able to BUY it, for a one-time payment, rather than RENT it as an ongoing monthly subscription.

As I understand it, there's no way for Premium players to buy a "lifetime Incarnate license"; that endgame is being dangled as one of the big carrots to get people to subscribe. (By contrast, I gather there IS a way to get a "lifetime IO license" - I think someone mentioned 27 tokens?)

EDIT: Oedipus Tex, I feel for your friends, but Paragon/NC can't give free accounts completely unrestricted chat. They just can't. We'd be buried in spam. (Again.)

My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City

 

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Originally Posted by Megajoule View Post
If I may (and I apologize for not seeing this thread sooner)...

It sounds like Death_Badger's complaint is not that they want access to Incarnates for free; rather, that they want to be able to BUY it, for a one-time payment, rather than RENT it as an ongoing monthly subscription.

As I understand it, there's no way for Premium players to buy a "lifetime Incarnate license"; that endgame is being dangled as one of the big carrots to get people to subscribe. (By contrast, I gather there IS a way to get a "lifetime IO license" - I think someone mentioned 27 tokens?)
I can see that being the complaint, but really, why would anyone pay monthly for a subscription if they can pay once and have access to all the features a VIP would? One large-ish payment and they get all the benefits of a VIP for the entire length of their time, essentially, while a VIP would have to continue to pay to have the same benefits. It essentially makes the VIP the WORSE option when it's obviously being planned for it to be the best.

The problem is that the point of MMOs is to have some constant stream of funding. If it were possible to get nearly everything the recurring payment group can get just by having one rush of payments, why would anyone do the VIP except to get access to Exalted?

 

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Originally Posted by Prodiguy View Post
I can see that being the complaint, but really, why would anyone pay monthly for a subscription if they can pay once and have access to all the features a VIP would? One large-ish payment and they get all the benefits of a VIP for the entire length of their time, essentially, while a VIP would have to continue to pay to have the same benefits. It essentially makes the VIP the WORSE option when it's obviously being planned for it to be the best.

The problem is that the point of MMOs is to have some constant stream of funding. If it were possible to get nearly everything the recurring payment group can get just by having one rush of payments, why would anyone do the VIP except to get access to Exalted?
Everyone who states that Premium players would get everything that VIP players get and never have to subscribe seems to forget that they get 15 servers worth of 12 character slots compared to 2. And also get 1/3 of their sub back in Paragon Points. And also get signature story arcs. And other stuff (the cost of the slots alone would probably come to many years worth of subs).

To create a more constant stream of revenue from premium they could make incarnate access purchasable per character and charge for access to each raid. This would encourage them to produce new content that both Premium and VIPs could access. As it stands Premium players who want to stay Premium could be discouraged if they are constantly developing content for subscribers, and subscribers could be discouraged if they aren't developing content for subscribers.

 

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Originally Posted by Death_Badger View Post
Everyone who states that Premium players would get everything that VIP players get and never have to subscribe
I do not beleive anyone has said this.

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To create a more constant stream of revenue from premium they could make incarnate access purchasable per character and charge for access to each raid.
I'm not sure how this is more constant. Many people who have Incarnates will not necessarily participate in raids on a regular basis (me, for instance).

Quote:
This would encourage them to produce new content that both Premium and VIPs could access. As it stands Premium players who want to stay Premium could be discouraged if they are constantly developing content for subscribers, and subscribers could be discouraged if they aren't developing content for subscribers.
I'm pretty sure they plan on developing content for subscribers regardless.

Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

 

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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Afriad isn't the right word. Annoyed would be a far more accurate word, and using that word instead, the answer is "yes". I consider it unfortunate, but I am willing to accept what I consider a subpar experience for a new, unsubscribed player to avoid what I consider a subpar experience for myself. Given that the barrier to bypassing the subpar experience is so very low, I am not deeply concerned about the negative impressions that limited communication in particular will create.

Of course, I was happy playing this game with my communication with other players limited by my own choice for quite a long time. Take that for what it's worth.
I had to delete two spam emails this week so far, plus there was some level 1 guy in the Atlas CH advertising in /local. That was THIS LAST WEEK.

So everyone going "oh, the RMT stuff isn't a problem anymore," is actively wrong. I for one do not want to see it made worse by lifting the chat restriction on free accounts, especially since it will not be a problem for ANY premium account.

 

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Originally Posted by LadyGrimrose View Post
Paragon has stated they considdered the lifetime subscription, but saw that most of the games that offered it did not do so well afterward.
IMO offering a lifetime subscription says to me that developers don't have faith in the longevity of their product.

A lifetime sub is effectively a bet of how long the game (and/or the players interest) will last. The only way for the publisher to come out ahead is if the player gets bored and quits or the game shuts down before they would have subscribed long enough to be more than the cost of the lifetime sub.

Seems like a bad idea to put yourself in the position where you WANT people to quit.

 

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Originally Posted by Texas Justice View Post
The only game CP mentioned when he said he told a friend the game was going to be f2p was City of Heroes. He didn't mention any other games until a later post.

So you are absolutely correct that if you are using the definition of F2P as it's been being used by Paragon Studios then the game he is referring to when he told his friend that the game was going to be f2p (City of Heroes) would technically be considered a hybrid model.

You've just made the same point I made by quoting Arcanaville's post with the overly large font.

Even though you were apparently intending it to mean something completely different.
No, the point I was trying to make is this:

All the folks adamant about Freedom's model being a hybrid keep harping on those people who compare it to other F2P MMOs that are presently on the market, demanding that it's completely inappropriate because COH is not going to be a F2P game ("No, it's a HYBRID dammit!"). But all the games people are drawing from as their basis of their comparison are technically hybrid models too if you are using Paragon Studios' strict definition of the term "F2P."

Of all the games out there that were former 100% subscription based games who later added a F2P element to their games (who are technically on hybrid per PS's definition of F2P), COH is the only one who demands that they aren't REALLY a F2P game...they're a hybrid. All the other guys who have gone through the drill of adding a F2P element to their games before Paragon Studios (and are technically hybrids too) self-identify as F2P games and have used this in their marketing. They've already set player expectation for what a F2P game is, and players are going to identify Freedom as a F2P game (whether folks like it or not).

So please do tell me why it's inappropriate to compare Freedom's model to the the other models that have a mix of F2P/sub which are presently are on market (whether you define it as F2P or hybrid, I don't care...I'm done with semantics at this point) and why the psychology used in these games doesn't apply to COH.

 

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Originally Posted by Manoa View Post
No, the point I was trying to make is this:

All the folks adamant about Freedom's model being a hybrid keep harping on those people who compare it to other F2P MMOs that are presently on the market, demanding that it's completely inappropriate because COH is not going to be a F2P game
LOTRO and DDO are hybrids. So is this.

Maplestory, which is the comparison that Zwill used when he pointed out the dev's definition of F2P (free, no sub or tiers, microtransactions only) is free.

I haven't seen anyone "harping" that DDO/LOTRO is F2P except people who are arguing that CoX needs to be LESS restrictive and offer MORE for free. Not the people who are defending the current model.

 

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Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
I haven't seen anyone "harping" that DDO/LOTRO is F2P except people who are arguing that CoX needs to be LESS restrictive and offer MORE for free. Not the people who are defending the current model.
What I've been seeing from those defending the current model is this:

Quote:
Poster 1: But what I've seen in other F2P MMOs like DDO/LOTRO/CO/etc. is <insert stuff here>

Poster 2: Well, there's your problem! COH isn't going to be a F2P game...it's a HYBRID!
Poster 2 essentially shuts down the second they see the term F2P without even bothering to see what game Poster 1 is talking about (and doesn't even bother checking to see if the game mentioned qualifies as "hybrid" per their strict definition of F2P).

The only time I saw someone actually recognize that these F2P MMOs are actually hybrid models too, it was fanwanked away by saying "well, this game is MORE F2P than hybrid though"...making it sound like COH is the only true hybrid model out there and what those other guys are doing doesn't even matter because they aren't really the competition. Which is a notion I respectfully disagree with.

 

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Originally Posted by Aggelakis View Post
Heck, they don't even have to spend $5, if they can find a good deal on a box set. The first time any retail code is added to a game account, a token is granted (only one token total, not per box)... and I've seen box sets as low as $1.50. Just "caveat emptor"...make sure your purchase says "factory sealed" or "unused code", or you have no recourse after purchase if you've been bilked.
I realize that. And they would also be VIP for a month and get a Reward Token for that. But the $5.00 for points is right in the game, no searching needed, and they don't have to worry about getting screwed because the seller lied about the "unused code" they were purchasing.

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Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
I had to delete two spam emails this week so far, plus there was some level 1 guy in the Atlas CH advertising in /local. That was THIS LAST WEEK.

So everyone going "oh, the RMT stuff isn't a problem anymore," is actively wrong. I for one do not want to see it made worse by lifting the chat restriction on free accounts, especially since it will not be a problem for ANY premium account.
I see about 3 or 4 RMT ads in the Virtue Help channel per week. Not nice to see, but nothing compared to the flood of tells and emails that used to happen daily. On the side of preventing that from recurring, I like the limitations on Free players. OTOH, it means that the Help channel is going to get flooded with Free players looking for teams, since they have no other way of searching. They really need to put in another channel for teaming so Free players can be sent there.

Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
----------------------
Fighting The Future Trilogy
----------------------

 

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Originally Posted by Justice Blues View Post
They really need to put in another channel for teaming so Free players can be sent there.
I would really like to see Free players given access to the built-in LFT channel. Is that global or zoned? (I've never used it because I don't PuG) If it's zoned it should be made global for that purpose.

 

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Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
I would really like to see Free players given access to the built-in LFT channel. Is that global or zoned? (I've never used it because I don't PuG) If it's zoned it should be made global for that purpose.
Free players have access to the help channel which is global. It seemed to turn into a pretty free for all chat channel on the beta server.

But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius

List of Invention Guides

 

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Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
LOTRO and DDO are hybrids. So is this.

Maplestory, which is the comparison that Zwill used when he pointed out the dev's definition of F2P (free, no sub or tiers, microtransactions only) is free.

I haven't seen anyone "harping" that DDO/LOTRO is F2P except people who are arguing that CoX needs to be LESS restrictive and offer MORE for free. Not the people who are defending the current model.

Lotro and DDO actively advertise themselves as F2P as does Age Of Conan, Champions Online and Crimecraft. All have both subs and F2P options. Even many F2P games give you huge points discounts if you sign up for a recurring points package via Paypal. World Of Tanks generally has over 40,000 concurrent users just on the EU server and the whole of that game can be played for free , but that has a 'subscription' option in that you can spend points to be a premium user for a limited time, up to 30 days at a time for roughly the equivalent of a standard MMO sub.

It seems that the devs/subscribers of City of Heroes are scared to actually say they are a F2P game, as though there is some stigma attached to it. There isn't, Maple Story has over 95 million registered accounts. Crimecraft went into partnership with Steam in their F2P section and had to open up new servers, within hours they had smashed all concurrent user records.

There are massive amounts of people who will gladly play F2P games and many of them will pay over money to them.

F2P MMO websites won't make any distinction between whatever model the devs decide to call the game and F2P.

 

Posted

So I thought I'd log a final entry into this thread.


My friends and I bought CoH during the Freedom sale. Some of us are returning players, some are new. We have been playing the **** out of CoH for the past couple weeks. At $1.99 to pick up the game, plus a free month, it has been totally worth it. We were looking forward to continuing to play as Freedom launched, until the details of the F2P system were announced.

We will not be playing after Freedom officially launches. In fact, we won't be playing after the 20th (or so) of this month. VIP isn't worth it. The graphics & gameplay mechanics are FAR too dated to justify a $14.99/mo price-point (unless, of course, you've already been playing the game for 4-7 years).

The F2P is even MORE not worth it. Things like inventory caps, monetary caps, auction house slots, costume slots, costumes, NEW power sets (not EXISTING CONTENT), etc... these are the things that ANY F2P model I have every played make their bank on. Paragon is locking out the most basic features of any MMO, and calling it "hybridized." If they mean a free trial, hybridized to a free trial, then they are absolutely correct.

Freedom is a desperate grasp for money by people who have no real concept of what a F2P system should look like.

The people I joined up with this past month, we would have all continued playing into Freedom. We would have used the **** out of the Paragon store, because we're whores for the kind of cool EXTRAS that end up on F2P marketplaces. But we will not pay out the nose just to buy the pieces of the game itself. We're not going to buy the games code back, one line at a time.

If Paragon drops the script to a more reasonable (5-10 bucks a month at most), reworks the F2P/Premium system so as to make it actually desirable, reworks the shop so it contains the things we want to buy, not the things we NEED TO ACTUALLY PLAY.... we may swing in. Otherwise, we're done in a week or two.




In all seriousness, I called all of my friends (who bought CoH with me) and told them what the new systems were going to be like. When I asked them if they wanted to play F2P, pay for VIP, or just quit... they laughed. And laughed. Because it was a rhetorical question, a joke if you like, and they all knew it.

 

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Originally Posted by MTS View Post
IMO offering a lifetime subscription says to me that developers don't have faith in the longevity of their product.

A lifetime sub is effectively a bet of how long the game (and/or the players interest) will last. The only way for the publisher to come out ahead is if the player gets bored and quits or the game shuts down before they would have subscribed long enough to be more than the cost of the lifetime sub.

Seems like a bad idea to put yourself in the position where you WANT people to quit.

On the other hand it is a nice way to buy some breathing time, you have to remember that for the first month of an MMO's life, they get next to nothing from their sales. Most of the money from the box is eaten up by the retailer and the publisher, and your players haven't given you any subscription money yet, since they are still on their 'free' month.

Offering Life time subscriptions for a limited time at launch, is a way of getting some money while people haven't started paying you yet.

Edit:

The first Dev Defense Force member, who uses the excuse 'It's free to play so shut up!' for any future problems, earns a steel toe cap boot up the jacksie

Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

Part of the problem is people are stating since CoH has some elements of F2P that everything should be free on the premium level. The common misconception is this was designed to step down from VIP eventually, when it is not. It was designed to better promote the game through free access thereby showcasing what subscription players get verus free/premium. Therefore, when you see us coming to the defense of the hybrid model it's mainly been because people are stating CoH is going to a F2P model, when in fact, they are not. They are moving into a better promotional model (hence the defense when people proclaim it is F2P.)

Your comparisons (speaking to Monoa) have been dead on, but there are still those that think this is a genuine F2P model and feel that premium should be qualified as, eventually, a substitute for a lifetime subscription when that was never what Paragon intended.

 

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Heroic Fetus, uhm... So much wrong with what you presented there... But again, classic example of why some of us jump to the "this is not a F2P game."

 

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Originally Posted by Heroic Fetus View Post
The F2P is even MORE not worth it. Things like inventory caps, monetary caps, auction house slots, costume slots, costumes, NEW power sets (not EXISTING CONTENT), etc... these are the things that ANY F2P model I have every played make their bank on. Paragon is locking out the most basic features of any MMO, and calling it "hybridized." If they mean a free trial, hybridized to a free trial, then they are absolutely correct.
Uh, you mean like the inventory caps, monetary caps, auction house slots, costumes, player classes etc that Freedom IS selling in the store? Or do you mean the inventory caps, money caps, auction house caps, costumes, etc that LOTRO is selling in THEIR store?

Free trial? That lets you level all the way to the level cap without buying a single thing? I'm pretty sure CoX is the only one I've had contact with that lets you do THAT. (I have no idea what the other superhero MMOs let you do with their free level, I have no interest in them.)

 

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Originally Posted by Heroic Fetus View Post
So I thought I'd log a final entry into this thread.
Doors on the left.


See you when you come back.

But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius

List of Invention Guides

 

Posted

Regardless of how you may feel about Freedom in comparison to other games, it is a gigantic improvement over the current situation.

And if sales indicate changes to the model are necessary for the health of the game, you can bet changes to the model will happen.

This thread indicates a couple things to me:

1) NCSoft may want to consider allowing Free players to reply to tells.

2) They may also want to create specfic Free and Premium channels to distribute some of the spam that will otherwise flood Help.

Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

 

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(applauds) Kitsune you summed it all up nice and neat.

 

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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails View Post
I'm pretty sure they plan on developing content for subscribers regardless.
They do

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by TerraDraconis View Post
Doors on the left.


See you when you come back.
On the plus side when he does return he'll have to resub if he wants to complain some more.