That's a solid number (it'll probably be in the low-to-mid 40s after DR eats it) but you need to focus on ranged defense as well. I'd say ranged defense is far more important simply because most of the enemies you'll run into in a PvP zone are ranged - it's easy to avoid a melee enemy but not so much when they can throw attacks from 80+ feet away.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
DR would make 64.5% defense into about 41%, which is just about where most SR toons sit. Of course DR would affect the defense enhancement (ie. the 0.56% enhanced) and lower those numbers first, so you're probably looking at around 60% defense changed to 40% defense, which is fine as well IMO.
What you need to do is add some -tohit to your build, as -tohit is like adding more defense, although weaker than raw defense it doesn't have to overcome the huge DR curve you're already at.
Basically, put the absolute amazement proc into Jab and spam it, with 2-3x you're looking at an unresisted -15% to -22.5% tohit, which will be like adding around those amounts of defense.
Diag interface is listed as 100% chance for "unresisted"* -5% tohit stacked up to 4 times, each lasting 10 seconds...which means perma -20% tohit if you hit them 4 times in 10 seconds (quite easy).
A players chance to hit you is presented as...
50% tohit + their tohit bonus - your tohit debuffs - your defense
So let's say they had tactics and kismet for 14 tohit (slotted tactics after DR is 8% tohit on melee toons)
50+14-0-40 = 24% chance to hit (then their acc is multiplied)
with some tohit debuffs it becomes
50+14-15-40 = 9% chance to hit (then acc is applied again)
Unfortunately many people have more tohit than that or have a lot of ACC (not to mention that -tohit debuff starts to diminish more and more once it goes past the tohit bonus value), so you will probably never see numbers that low, but it -does- show the effectiveness of tohit debuffs, especially unresisted ones.
tl;dr Defense needs tohit debuffs to be effective as the main means of survival.
*I've heard multiple people testing it getting it being resisted and unresisted, but I haven't done the number crunching myself
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
Wow awesome thank you for the reply!
I plan on using diamagnetic anyways, figured the -to hit would come in handy, glad someone backed that up.
As for ranged defense,
mids has ranged defense at 51% so that sounds pretty decent from what yall are saying, this build is mainly for fightclub 1v1's anyways, althought i threw SS in there so i could run around in zone if i felt like it.
Thanks for the detailed reply!
And i plan on using storm elementals,
The untargetable pet has hurricane, -30% to hit
Quote:
DR works on totals. To-hit and defense are part of the same total.|
Originally Posted by Sentry4
What you need to do is add some -tohit to your build, as -tohit is like adding more defense, although weaker than raw defense it doesn't have to overcome the huge DR curve you're already at.
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=298
Quote:
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Originally Posted by hemmingway3
DR works on totals. To-hit and defense are part of the same total.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=298 |
I meant that going from 40% defense to 45% defense, it's easier using a 5% tohit debuff rather than getting 5% more defense in DR (which is around 15% more PvE). Although tohit debuffs enhancement means it's basically useless (harshest DR curve is tohit buffs/debuff enhancement, might be on par with squishy def) when slotted, the base amount is still better.
Also, are you -sure- defense gets DRed 3 times?
-The Enhancement (0.56)
-The Total Def (40 def --> 30 def)
-& the number below the base tohit getting DRed closer to the base tohit (if i'm understanding you correctly)
basetohit+tohit-tohit debuff-defense
50+14-13-30= 21%
That 21% is then -29% from base and that's DRed to a lower number making the chance to hit increase?
And which DR curve would that use, tohit's 5 to 1 or defense's 1.2 to 1?
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
Quote:
If your defense brings the enemy's to-hit value to lower than its base, DR will lower your defense. Having 21% chance to hit is the same as having a 29% to-hit debuff. The number is reduced to bring the to-hit value closer to its base value. |
Originally Posted by Sentry4
basetohit+tohit-tohit debuff-defense
50+14-13-30= 21% That 21% is then -29% from base and that's DRed to a lower number making the chance to hit increase? |
The slotting of the defense power is DR'd. Then, slotting of the to-hit debuff is DR'd. Next, the slotting of the foe's to-hit buffs are DR'd. Lastly, all those values are totaled and that value is DR'd. So, if you give -20% to-hit, but they have +20% to-hit, the values cancel before DR, and the DR'd value is your defense. So, if you have 64.5% melee defense, it would be DR'd to about 40.5%. That value is then reduced by accuracy slotting and bonuses. How accuracy and elusivity work with DR... I don't really know. I imagine it is similar.
Note that everything I'm saying is understanding I gained from trying very hard to understand the things Arcanaville has posted on the subject, so if I'm wrong, it's likely because I misunderstood her posts. I would suggest to anyone interested that you see the above link to her post on diminishing returns and also this one:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=126132
Also note that this is an exceedingly complex system and the devs have made little to no effort to help their community understand it, so if anyone does not understand it, they really shouldn't feel left out. You are with the majority on that.
Quote:
I'd recommend taking something else for pets. While the elementals are fine for adding -tohit and for knocking your opponents pets out of the way. You are going to find you'll be lacking enough damage to drop anything fast enough.|
Originally Posted by Toolate2TurnBack
And i plan on using storm elementals,
The untargetable pet has hurricane, -30% to hit |
Also, I'd recommend skipping the -tohit interface for the same reason as skipping the elementals. You need more damage so take reactive.
Take a decent DPS pet (cims are great but you'll find polar lights are better all around) + taunt + reactive and you will get kills.
The key to building a successful Shield tank fightclubber is getting your defense to around 40% melee and also capitalizing on Shield tanks resists coupled with tough. Many peeps will tell you to take Nerve alpha for the +acc/def and that's good advice but depending on your APP/PPP you may want to consider Cardiac. Earth mastery is pretty much the best you can take for fightclub imo so I'd go with cardiac. You're going to get some much needed end redux and the added +res.
40ish def + 40ish res + rebirth and you should never die. It's also a good idea to have ageless for when you fight sappers.
[QUOTE=Mercury_Down;3804899
40ish def + 40ish res + rebirth and you should never die. It's also a good idea to have ageless for when you fight sappers.[/QUOTE]
Awesome thank you merc.
After DR im at a little over 40% Defense, and a litle over 40% s/l Res with Cardiac.
I took earth mastery ( Stone prison, fossilize, quick sand ) with an end drain of .98 with all toggs on.
look forward to seein yall in arena / mehbeh some zone!
Quote:
Just curious, what makes you like the polar lights more than the cims? Whats the pros and cons?
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Originally Posted by Mercury_Down
I'd recommend taking something else for pets. While the elementals are fine for adding -tohit and for knocking your opponents pets out of the way. You are going to find you'll be lacking enough damage to drop anything fast enough.
Also, I'd recommend skipping the -tohit interface for the same reason as skipping the elementals. You need more damage so take reactive. Take a decent DPS pet (cims are great but you'll find polar lights are better all around) + taunt + reactive and you will get kills. The key to building a successful Shield tank fightclubber is getting your defense to around 40% melee and also capitalizing on Shield tanks resists coupled with tough. Many peeps will tell you to take Nerve alpha for the +acc/def and that's good advice but depending on your APP/PPP you may want to consider Cardiac. Earth mastery is pretty much the best you can take for fightclub imo so I'd go with cardiac. You're going to get some much needed end redux and the added +res. 40ish def + 40ish res + rebirth and you should never die. It's also a good idea to have ageless for when you fight sappers. |
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
Hey guys,
Working on my SD/SS Fiteklub build,
I have my melee defense up to 64.5% In mids.
Im not really used to building defense based builds,
and i don't know if thats a good number or not for melee defense.
Anyone know if that'll be enough for my tank?
Thanks to whoever decides to help!