City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Is Interface balanced?

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-07-21 22:42 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
I think he means that it's a damage debuff that stacks with the debuff from seekers. Near as I can tell (from my limited unscientific testing) seeker drones are bugged with regards to procs of all types. I did some experimentation with a chance to hold IO and never once saw it proc.
"She", and yes, that's what I mean. With all the attacks being thrown around by six bots, plus damage-dealing traps, plus the occasional personal attack, I'd never be able to pick out the source of any particular 5% debuff.

 

Posted

I could be remembering wrong on the duration, but I do remember for a 100% proc rate, it's near impossible for a saturated, seamless DM attack chain (MG, SL, Gloom) to keep up more then like three, tops. This was tested on a pylon, but it's been a while and I need to test it again. IIRC, the fire dot also has a chance to "crit" adding additional ticks past the initial ones.

And as Adeon mentioned, against trash packs the number is just too low and clunky to truly be worth as much. As far as I can remember, defender dark blast is in the 10% area (roughly) for 10 seconds, and can be enhanced further. Mind you, this is an offensive set specifically set up on the biggest debuff AT before enhancements. Dark Blast's protective measures are certainly nice, but they almost certainly pale against Dark Miasma and Purple Patch/Debuff Resist (which some mobs DO have) render this form of defense extremely unreliable. Assuming you don't just kill them in three attacks.

Interface needs a complete reworking: Procs shouldn't be limited to damage. If they are, the number should be equalized with type being the primary difference. Even then, it'd be interesting to see two interfaces with an offensive proc, two with a defensive proc. For example: Reactive remains a damage proc, Paralytic now procs a 1 mag hold. Gravitic procs a Force Feedback type buff (self stacking, to a max, god knows it needs it) and Diamagnetic procs a minor self heal or end heal, potentially 1% of your HP (or a personal regen buff or the like). On top of this, all debuffs are unresistable and their duration (sans proc) are stabilized at 10 seconds.

A change like the above would create a legitimate and appreciable difference between each, with some nice selection for everyone. Most importantly, interface becomes actually important, like the other Incarnate slots, and would probably go a long way to helping encounter design thus far. I'm almost certain that Lambda was originally designed with Reactive/Interface being unresistable in general (thus the 100% damage res on the master runs) and they just completely forgot to flip the switch one way or the other.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenteko View Post
I could be remembering wrong on the duration, but I do remember for a 100% proc rate, it's near impossible for a saturated, seamless DM attack chain (MG, SL, Gloom) to keep up more then like three, tops.
None of the DM attacks take advantage of the quirk of interface where it procs whenever damage is done. I'm guessing a double layer of caltrops could stack it pretty heavily not even counting what you get from other attacks.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsclark View Post
None of the DM attacks take advantage of the quirk of interface where it procs whenever damage is done. I'm guessing a double layer of caltrops could stack it pretty heavily not even counting what you get from other attacks.
If I recall correctly, the original bug was that dots used to proc every time damage is done, but only from "toggle" powers that essentially reactivated attacks, rains, caltrops, damage auras, all that. I believe all of them were since normalized to the ten second toggle rule, though each of a MM's pets trigger the interface.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenteko View Post
Interface needs a complete reworking: Procs shouldn't be limited to damage. If they are, the number should be equalized with type being the primary difference. Even then, it'd be interesting to see two interfaces with an offensive proc, two with a defensive proc. For example: Reactive remains a damage proc, Paralytic now procs a 1 mag hold. Gravitic procs a Force Feedback type buff (self stacking, to a max, god knows it needs it) and Diamagnetic procs a minor self heal or end heal, potentially 1% of your HP (or a personal regen buff or the like). On top of this, all debuffs are unresistable and their duration (sans proc) are stabilized at 10 seconds.

A change like the above would create a legitimate and appreciable difference between each, with some nice selection for everyone. Most importantly, interface becomes actually important, like the other Incarnate slots, and would probably go a long way to helping encounter design thus far. I'm almost certain that Lambda was originally designed with Reactive/Interface being unresistable in general (thus the 100% damage res on the master runs) and they just completely forgot to flip the switch one way or the other.
Oh, Defensive Procs.. I likey! Good ideas.

I think another problem is that interface is "inherently" better on certain AT/Power Sets. Mastermind can proc it way faster than other ATs. As for the other 3 paths, all ATs are treated equally. Yes, some ATs have buffs/debuffs for Lore pets but in general, the way to trigger those powers are equal. Interface is not. Fast attacking set can proc fast and sets with pets can proc even faster.

Yes, Interface needs some re-work.

What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenteko View Post
If I recall correctly, the original bug was that dots used to proc every time damage is done, but only from "toggle" powers that essentially reactivated attacks, rains, caltrops, damage auras, all that. I believe all of them were since normalized to the ten second toggle rule, though each of a MM's pets trigger the interface.
The procs that are granted in the destroyed Ouroboros mission in the Alpha unlock arc are applied per damage tick. These are the only ones that did such.

All of the procs from Interface were initially applying once per ToHit check, not per damage tick. DOTs and damage auras were not particularly powerful unless they made rapid ToHit checks in succession, such as on rain skills, Caltrops, etc. All of these skills now check once upon activation and again every ten seconds, following the formula for procs from IOs.

 

Posted

The only reason I ever consider not going with Reactive is on my controllers with Sleep powers and I still haven't decided what to go with for them.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden_Avariel View Post
The only reason I ever consider not going with Reactive is on my controllers with Sleep powers and I still haven't decided what to go with for them.
You can still go with tier 3 75% proc on -resistance only right?

The thing with Sleep power is that if the target is slept, you are not going to attack him continuously anyway so any of the procs don't really matter that much.

What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibikao View Post
You can still go with tier 3 75% proc on -resistance only right?

The thing with Sleep power is that if the target is slept, you are not going to attack him continuously anyway so any of the procs don't really matter that much.
from what ive seen the only power this argument even really applies to is the single target sleep in mind control

i think most if not all AoE sleeps dont do any dmg to begin with so the proc would not even go off

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master View Post
from what ive seen the only power this argument even really applies to is the single target sleep in mind control

i think most if not all AoE sleeps dont do any dmg to begin with so the proc would not even go off
Siren's Song, the AoE sleep in sonic blast sets, which does a miniscule amount of damage at the start before the sleep is applied, is another example. The proc activates regularly on mobs when my sonic corrupter fires this power off.

Liberty
Mister Mass - 50 Inv/SS/NRG Mut Tank [1236]
Doc Willpower - 50 Grav/FF/Psi Mag Controller
Baron Wonder - 50 SS/Elec/Mu Mag Brute
Sound Bight - 50 Son/Son/Mu Tech Corrupter

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master View Post
from what ive seen the only power this argument even really applies to is the single target sleep in mind control

i think most if not all AoE sleeps dont do any dmg to begin with so the proc would not even go off
Flash Freeze should also have the problem; although, it is not an exceptional power to begin with.

Not sure how it would work with Blind since that does do damage, but not in the area that does the sleep. But if it turns that into an area debuff/damage power then that's an improvement.

 

Posted

Well, I don't see those aoe sleep powers matter that much because 1. you can't stack sleep using those powers as they do damage so you are not going to re-apply procs on them 2. you still have the option to go for 75% resistance proc only.

Even if it interfers with one very minor area of the game, the DoT damage is still so much superior than other procs. You can stack dot up to 6x. That's a lot of damage over time.

Hey, at least the procs don't affect Mind control's aoe sleep.

What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

 

Posted

Considering that once you hit 50 you will find yourself teaming with a lot of other 50+ full Incarnate-enabled players, PVE content dies WAY too fast for debuffs and the like to really even be useful. More damage is always useful, however. Damage in this game seems to always scale, but debuffs seem to hit a point of diminishing returns.

That plus with everyone now basically running around dropping blaster nukes on every single freaking spawn....what's there to debuff?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crysys View Post
Considering that once you hit 50 you will find yourself teaming with a lot of other 50+ full Incarnate-enabled players, PVE content dies WAY too fast for debuffs and the like to really even be useful. More damage is always useful, however. Damage in this game seems to always scale, but debuffs seem to hit a point of diminishing returns.

That plus with everyone now basically running around dropping blaster nukes on every single freaking spawn....what's there to debuff?
Well, I truly believe Judgment is too good but that's for another discussion. Recharge is too short, damage is too high, endurance cost almost non-existent (it exists but it doesn't matter at that level) and it seems to always hit.

So, by comparison, Interface feels lacking. Not to mention Interface itself seems very imbalanced.

What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crysys View Post
Considering that once you hit 50 you will find yourself teaming with a lot of other 50+ full Incarnate-enabled players, PVE content dies WAY too fast for debuffs and the like to really even be useful. More damage is always useful, however. Damage in this game seems to always scale, but debuffs seem to hit a point of diminishing returns.

That plus with everyone now basically running around dropping blaster nukes on every single freaking spawn....what's there to debuff?
its not really that debuffs have diminishing returns, its called debuff resistance

AV debuff resistance is usually around 85-87%, and since those interface debuffs are resistable and have a stack limit of 4 from all sources of attacks (which means even a league of 24 poeple cant exceed a stack of 4x diagmagnetic debuffs)

using diamagnetic for our example which is -5% tohit and -15% regen for debuff values, after AV resistance of 87% (which is what lvl 54 AVs have) it reduces each debuff by 65%

so for the -tohit portion of the power, at -5% a normal stack is -20% max, if you using it on an AV or a GM, the -5% gets reduced by 65% to barely 3%, which leaves your max stack at -12% (please let me know if i did the math right)

the thing which makes it at least still semi decent is the fact that the purple patch will not apply to this because interface works similar to an achilles heel proc in the fact that the target applies a power to itself, but thats still 8% less debuff your getting due to resistance

as you mentioned on weaker targets the debuffs dont really matter even if they have the full effect due to dying so fast

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master View Post
please let me know if i did the math right
The AV debuff resistance of 87% reduces each debuff by 87%, not 65%. Also, Diamagnetic's regen debuff is actually only 10%, I know the guide says 15%, but the guide is in error. Diamagnetic is not much use vs. AVs. The fully stacked 20% to-hit debuff is reduced to 2.6% and the 40% regen debuff is reduced to 5.2%.

That said, on characters where I am already putting out massive damage (especially if it includes AoE damage) I often choose Diamagnetic. It is easily at least (and often more than) the equivalent of having one (more) luck inspire dropped vs. enemy spawns. Sure, it may not help in AV fights, but I am likely to be fighting AVs with a team. When I am running through the warehouse in Lambda (often solo or with only one or two others), I'd often rather be debuffing enemy to-hit at the crates, because I am already putting out tons of damage, I just need to be able to live long enough (alternatively, some of my characters with higher survivability, but lower damage choose the Reactive for the exact opposite reasoning, I already can live long enough, please let me kill this thing faster).

The mitigation benefit of both Paralytic and Diamagnetic are real and effective. Is it as valuable to most characters as extra damage? Tough call. It varies enough for me that I will choose any of those three (although I have not yet actually taken Paralytic on anyone and have taken Gravitic on two characters, but I had to try out the -recovery aspect on my sappers).

Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master View Post
using diamagnetic for our example which is -5% tohit and -15% regen for debuff values, after AV resistance of 87% (which is what lvl 54 AVs have) it reduces each debuff by 65%

so for the -tohit portion of the power, at -5% a normal stack is -20% max, if you using it on an AV or a GM, the -5% gets reduced by 65% to barely 3%, which leaves your max stack at -12% (please let me know if i did the math right)
Actually you're being generous. Debuff resistance uses the following formula:
SufferedAmount = AppliedAmount × (100% – TotalResistance)

So the 5% to hit debuff is reduced to a 0.65% to hit debuff against an AV. That means a full stack of four only reduces his to hit an almost negligible 2.6%.

The regen debuff has a similar problem being only 7.8% for a full stack. The reasons most buff/debuff sets have such high -regen debuffs (500% for most) is that they need it to get past AV resistances.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Actually you're being generous. Debuff resistance uses the following formula:
SufferedAmount = AppliedAmount × (100% – TotalResistance)

So the 5% to hit debuff is reduced to a 0.65% to hit debuff against an AV. That means a full stack of four only reduces his to hit an almost negligible 2.6%.

The regen debuff has a similar problem being only 7.8% for a full stack. The reasons most buff/debuff sets have such high -regen debuffs (500% for most) is that they need it to get past AV resistances.
ah thx, i knew i was messing up something somewhere, but that just supports my point even more that the debuffs are negligible vs strong targets

making them unresistable would not be that bad, heck if they made each tier of the interface have more unresistable (like tier 1 0% unresistable, tier 2 25% unresistable, tier 3 50% unresistable, and tier 4 75% unresistable)

doing that would make getting a higher tier a lot more valuable and would actually make poeple consider using other things aside from reactive for the DoT