Add Level Shifts to Judgement and Interface
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-05-24 11:59 in Suggestions and Ideas
Well, we have 5 slots left to unlock and 7 more "hypothetical" levels. I'm going to take a guess that the Omega Slot will be granting four, if not five, of those last "hypo-levels."
Please read his suggestion before making comments. He didn't even write that much. He specifically wanted these levels to not stack with the ones from Destiny and Lore.
He's not asking to have more level shifts. He's asking to let us get level shifts from T3 Judgement and Interface if we'd rather get those first.
I still don't agree with the suggestion.
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Unsigned, sorry. I get that you're asking to keep the current possible level shift at +3, but there just isn't any real need for it other than "I don't want Lore/Destiny powers".
If you don't want them, just slot them for the level shifts and don't bother to put them in your tray.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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But I want the best reward first! I don't want to have to grind out the rest of Lore and Destiny to get my level shift!|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Unsigned, sorry. I get that you're asking to keep the current possible level shift at +3, but there just isn't any real need for it other than "I don't want Lore/Destiny powers".
If you don't want them, just slot them for the level shifts and don't bother to put them in your tray. |
I want them as easily as I can get them
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If they took the level shift out of Lore, it would become...even worse than it is now. And while I fully endorse any opportunity to point and laugh at Lore, even I'm not that heartless.
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Had I designed the incarnate slots either both of the level shifts would be in Interface and Judgement, or one would have been in one of those slots and the other would have been in the opposite side of Lore/Destiny.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Unsigned, sorry. I get that you're asking to keep the current possible level shift at +3, but there just isn't any real need for it other than "I don't want Lore/Destiny powers".
If you don't want them, just slot them for the level shifts and don't bother to put them in your tray. |
The point to the shifts is not to be the reward for completing your run through the trials per se, but rather to allow players to build power usable *in* the trials. They don't work anywhere else. So logically, we should either be unlocking them early so they can be used for at least half our core path through the system, or they should be made available throughout that path, one earlier and one later. Making both of them arrive later satisfies someone's itch to make the later powers stronger than the earlier ones, but fails to account for why level shift was even created in the first place.
In their current configuration they are mainly useful to a player that decides to shoot past rare powers and grind for the very rare powers. But that makes them more of a grinding tool than a progressional tool, and in my opinion that is an error.
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Initially I wasn't for or against but I thought I saw a valid dev argument for the current set up but like Arcana said those shifts are only valid in the trials to begin with. They should move the shifts up to judgment and interface
/sign
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Personally I like the second option, putting the shifts in Interface and Lore.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Had I designed the incarnate slots either both of the level shifts would be in Interface and Judgement, or one would have been in one of those slots and the other would have been in the opposite side of Lore/Destiny.
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I also would have only released Interface and Judegement with Issue 20 and then released Lore/Destiny in issue 20.5 (i.e. when they release the Keyes Reactor Trial) although I'd have kept the current salvage requirements (i.e. Lore and Destiny would still use salvage from the BAF/Lambda I would have just held off on releasing them)
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Indeed what you say is one part of why I suggested it. I want to have my level shifts sooner, for use in the trials longer. The other part is I feel forced to make Lore/Destiny my priority choices for rare components. So I end up choosing my first rares for the slots I will unlock last (just in case my luck is bad, I'd rather make sure I have the rares for the level shifts).|
Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
But I want the best reward first! I don't want to have to grind out the rest of Lore and Destiny to get my level shift!
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So I do want to be able to get the level shifts sooner, if I choose. I also want to be free to choose my rares based on the actual power I want to make rare first, as opposed to feeling obliged to take my rares for Lore/Destiny.
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The problem with doing a split tier system is that you then inherently make one Trial more valuable than the other, at least for a character just starting on the Incarnate tree.
Making the shifts Judgement/Interface would work. Alternatively, give all four slots an Incarnate shift, but have them only stack a certain way. Most likely by tier. IE, Judgement + Interface would only be +1. Judgement + Lore = +2. Judgement + Destiny = +2.
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Why the hell not. After all, they want to jack power up to stupid levels everywhere else.
How about each tier in each incarnate power gives you a level shift? Tier 4 alpha, tier 4 judgement, etc - you're now +20. And hey, five more sets of powers to go! Balance? Pfft. Who needs it.
/practicing to be on the dev team. *slams head against desk a few times to see what else seems like a good idea.*
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*passes Bill the tranqs*|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Why the hell not. After all, they want to jack power up to stupid levels everywhere else.
How about each tier in each incarnate power gives you a level shift? Tier 4 alpha, tier 4 judgement, etc - you're now +20. And hey, five more sets of powers to go! Balance? Pfft. Who needs it. /practicing to be on the dev team. *slams head against desk a few times to see what else seems like a good idea.* |
I know how the rage feels, man. But he wasn't suggesting more +levels. He was suggesting they not be back loaded on the available powers, meaning you can actually contribute usefully more easily in trials, rather than flopping along until you have enough luck/grind to slot T3 Destiny and Lore.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Yeah, I know. I'm just getting irritated at power creep in general here. And a rather overwhelming (and not talking about the OP here, just sort of a general statement) "gimme gimme why do I have to wait" that seems to be building up everywhere on the forums and in game. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
*passes Bill the tranqs*
I know how the rage feels, man. But he wasn't suggesting more +levels. He was suggesting they not be back loaded on the available powers, meaning you can actually contribute usefully more easily in trials, rather than flopping along until you have enough luck/grind to slot T3 Destiny and Lore. |
Gets tiring.
There are times when arguing for "more power earlier" makes sense - I still think the -4 level shift in Tin Mage is idiotic. And letting MMs do an AOE upgrade on their pets made sense - nobody ELSE has to go through that much just to be ready to do... well, *anything.* When they make sense, I'll argue for them. But so much of it seems to be "If you won't give me the I Win button, give me something close, I want it now!"
(I don't, by the way, tend to feel all that useless without T3Destiny or Lore in the trials - it makes for actual *fights.* Something other than "I nuke this spawn, you nuke the next.")
Having run a lot of Raids before I twigged I wasn't going to get a Rare drop anytime soon and instead went for the 8 Emp merit option on Alpha, I am very much in favour of making the shifts available a little earlier, just so the Praetorian AoE spam doesn't obliterate my scrap-brained entourage quite so quickly
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I actually agree. After the 2nd open beta test of the two trials, where I first experienced leagues where many players had a fair number of incarnate powers, I asked if we were ever going to be able to turn the difficulty of the trials up. I prefer fighting the +3s. I'd even love a setting for the trials where you could turn 1, 2, or even all 3 level shifts off but still have the new incarnate powers.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Yeah, I know. I'm just getting irritated at power creep in general here. And a rather overwhelming (and not talking about the OP here, just sort of a general statement) "gimme gimme why do I have to wait" that seems to be building up everywhere on the forums and in game.
.... (I don't, by the way, tend to feel all that useless without T3Destiny or Lore in the trials - it makes for actual *fights.* Something other than "I nuke this spawn, you nuke the next.") |
I believe however that the level shifts are here to stay. Since that is the case, I would prefer to be able to choose my drops and which powers to take to tier 3 based on the actual powers themselves and not based on the level shift first. Despite the fact that I may prefer to be challenged, I also prefer to choose the path that yields me the greatest power (although I have purposely chosen rares for Interface first on 3 characters and Judgement on 1, so sometimes I cave to concept).
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What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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That's true, when looking at a system in which Destiny and Lore are the stopping point.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The point to the shifts is not to be the reward for completing your run through the trials per se, but rather to allow players to build power usable *in* the trials. They don't work anywhere else. So logically, we should either be unlocking them early so they can be used for at least half our core path through the system, or they should be made available throughout that path, one earlier and one later. Making both of them arrive later satisfies someone's itch to make the later powers stronger than the earlier ones, but fails to account for why level shift was even created in the first place.
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We're only looking at the first part of the system, however. It's still incomplete. Once all the slots exist, getting the level shifts in Destiny and Lore will be a progression tool, to make unlocking and slotting the later slots easier.
The same thing could have been said for the Alpha slot level shift before the trials were implemented.
A level shift should be hard to get, I'm not seeing any justification for this other than "It's too hard" which in my experience isn't true.
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You cannot make the same case for the Alpha slot level shift, because that level shift is universally on. Its actually a much more valuable level shift than the Incarnate shift in Destiny and Lore. The argument regarding Destiny and Lore incarnate shifts rests with the fact that those shifts are only usable within trials.|
Originally Posted by MTS
That's true, when looking at a system in which Destiny and Lore are the stopping point.
We're only looking at the first part of the system, however. It's still incomplete. Once all the slots exist, getting the level shifts in Destiny and Lore will be a progression tool, to make unlocking and slotting the later slots easier. The same thing could have been said for the Alpha slot level shift before the trials were implemented. |
The case could be made that the point to the Lore and Destiny level shifts is to be applicable to the latter slots, but that's not really a reasonable design decision given the fact that the devs seem to have decided early on to push those other slots indefinitely into the future. They are planning on expanding options for the existing slots first, with no indication of when they intend to release the other slots. But I can theorize the new slots won't appear until the amount of incarnate content which generates incarnate rewards increases radically enough to justify it. That might be a long, long time from now.
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Then you've missed the point the OP is trying to make. Those level shifts (Destiny & Lore) are ONLY available in the Incarnate trials. The OP wants to enjoy those level shifts, but (unspoken) I imagine they are as sick of grinding the same two trials for Incarnate rewards as I am. Therefore, they are not playing in the trials as much since they got their level shifts.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
A level shift should be hard to get, I'm not seeing any justification for this other than "It's too hard" which in my experience isn't true.
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Sure, they'll get to use them later, but when you get a new shiney you want to use it NOW. Moving at least one of them to Judgement or Interface would allow the player to enjoy that level shift while still making progress towards the current additional Incarnate rewards.
Frankly, I haven't even gone back to run TMII or Apex since I got my level shifts. And that IS something I'd like to do, but my time is extremely limited at present.
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Move one of them, then. Move the Lore one down to Judgement, leave the Destiny alone - keep that bit of progression going on a (somewhat) steady pace. |
Originally Posted by Atilla_The_Pun
Then you've missed the point the OP is trying to make. Those level shifts (Destiny & Lore) are ONLY available in the Incarnate trials. The OP wants to enjoy those level shifts, but (unspoken) I imagine they are as sick of grinding the same two trials for Incarnate rewards as I am. Therefore, they are not playing in the trials as much since they got their level shifts.
Sure, they'll get to use them later, but when you get a new shiney you want to use it NOW. Moving at least one of them to Judgement or Interface would allow the player to enjoy that level shift while still making progress towards the current additional Incarnate rewards. Frankly, I haven't even gone back to run TMII or Apex since I got my level shifts. And that IS something I'd like to do, but my time is extremely limited at present. |
Moving both, I don't think I agree with.
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You missed my point, which isn't your fault since my post was kind of a lazy one-liner.|
Originally Posted by Atilla_The_Pun
Then you've missed the point the OP is trying to make. Those level shifts (Destiny & Lore) are ONLY available in the Incarnate trials. The OP wants to enjoy those level shifts, but (unspoken) I imagine they are as sick of grinding the same two trials for Incarnate rewards as I am. Therefore, they are not playing in the trials as much since they got their level shifts.
Sure, they'll get to use them later, but when you get a new shiney you want to use it NOW. Moving at least one of them to Judgement or Interface would allow the player to enjoy that level shift while still making progress towards the current additional Incarnate rewards. Frankly, I haven't even gone back to run TMII or Apex since I got my level shifts. And that IS something I'd like to do, but my time is extremely limited at present. |
The level shifts don't take that long to get. What does take a while to get is the Tier 4's, those take much longer to obtain than unlocking Destiny&Lore and slotting the Tier 3's which give the level shifts. And even if you get the Tier 4's, Issue 20.5 is bringing a bunch of new reasons to do the trials.
In other words, by the time you get the level shifts, you still have a LOT of time to spend in the Incarnate trials.
Edit: If the incarnate trials are repetitive and boring, that's a different problem altogether and has no relation to the OP's suggestion.
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Howabout whichever one you get the T3 in first sets the level shift to its diagonal opposite. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Move one of them, then. Move the Lore one down to Judgement, leave the Destiny alone - keep that bit of progression going on a (somewhat) steady pace.
Moving both, I don't think I agree with. |
So if you get your T3 in Interface first you will have to get your other level shift from Lore. If Judgement first, then Destiny.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
You missed my point, which isn't your fault since my post was kind of a lazy one-liner.
The level shifts don't take that long to get. What does take a while to get is the Tier 4's, those take much longer to obtain than unlocking Destiny&Lore and slotting the Tier 3's which give the level shifts. And even if you get the Tier 4's, Issue 20.5 is bringing a bunch of new reasons to do the trials. In other words, by the time you get the level shifts, you still have a LOT of time to spend in the Incarnate trials. Edit: If the incarnate trials are repetitive and boring, that's a different problem altogether and has no relation to the OP's suggestion. |
I'm OK with a compromise such as the solution Bill and I are kicking around above.
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If you stopped participating in trials right after you got your level shifts, how is getting the level shifts earlier going to make things any better? They clearly aren't helping you enjoy the content.
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I stopped right after getting my T3s in all 4 (5 if you count the Alpha slot) Incarnate slots because I was tired of grinding, I have limited time, and I would like to have at least one hero and one villain reasonably Incarnated on each of the 3 servers I play on. All of my 50's currently have T3s in Alpha, and most will progress to T4 (one may already have done so) as I continue to play them on and off.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
If you stopped participating in trials right after you got your level shifts, how is getting the level shifts earlier going to make things any better? They clearly aren't helping you enjoy the content.
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IOW I didn't stop because I got the level shifts, I stopped because I got the T3 in the last power I needed it in at the moment.
The T4 is, in many cases, just not worth the effort. Thirty+ Empyrean Merits for a Very Rare salvage on top of everything two T3s for the marginal benefit increase.... meh. It'll happen when it happens. I'm not going to endlessly grind the same 2 (soon 3) trials for it.
And I give the price in E Merits because the devs "participation" + "random" roll is still screwy. Some characters I get Rares and VRares all the time, others.... well one poor MM is more likely to get 10 threads than anything else. And that just ticks me off because he's very powerful in normal content, and is constantly laying traps or giving orders to the bots in the iTrials. But that's another story.
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I think the devs should consider making it so that tier 3 Judgement and Interface provide a +1 level shift.
Make the level shift in Judgement and Lore not stack and do the same for Interface and Destiny.
This way it doesn't matter which you take to tier 3 first, while still keeping only the 2 additional level shifts.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.