Global chat.. when is too much moderation TOO MUCH
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-05-07 24:08 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Slight correction here. If the channel is the one that I think it is most people you see getting unsilenced are actually people who have recently joined the channel. The channel is set to silence new members by default as an anti-spam measure.
In the general case I agree with Zombie Man. The channel moderators set the rules and if people can't live with that then the channel will die as people move to other channels. While I personally feel that the moderators of the channel in question could stand to loosen up a bit on the no-off-topic talk rule I also respect their right to set the rules they wish. |
I agree Adeon And You may be right about most of those green names but I have seen a few that I knew were already members being unsilenced and I have seen some message traffic stating that SO n SO was silenced by Moderator ___________. It seems a little silly is all since I have rarely seen much conversation in the channel to begin with and even when its "Off Topic" it usually has something to do with a players build or something similar. But its their channel so what they want is fine as long as it continues to help me when i use it
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
Wicked Wendy
Well it seems that channel is very controlled (maybe a bit too much for my liking).
I'm a mod of a badge channel myself and we have (in my opinion) a more relaxed feel. Badge talk and taskforce/trials etc have precedence.
Other chat and discussions can take place as long as it don't drown badge and tf chat.
If it becomes too much excessive chat, then we politely ask the convo to be taken to an other channel (which was created as a channel to talk about everything) or in tells.
Lady Arete on Unionhandbook
My Excel Badge tool
The quick answer is because if YOU have have a 10 minute off-topic discussion then so can everyone else. If 100 people all start a nonconcurant 10 minute conversation that's 1,000 minutes of offtopic discussion. 16 hours 40 minutes, and that's if they all conduct just one off topic one. if they get involved in it nad have several, you can fill the day easily. If each 10 minute conversation is just one line ever 10 seconds, that's 6,000 offtopic lines in which the actual topic is now mixed.
So what do you do? Lose the original topic in the off topic stuff or crack down hard or decide on a case by case basis and then no one knows the rules for what will get them silenced? And if you do go case by case, how do you avoid being viewed as showing favoritism ("Hey, Wendy went on for 10 minutes about which powerset combo was better: Dual Kittens/Catnip Buff or Sun Worshiping/Dog launchers, why can't I talk about which IO sets work best for Dog Launchers?")?
You should all join the channel Union Chat, we have so many different topics going on at once that if you go afk for 2 mins you have to catch up to the new topic being talked about! 
In my opinion a little moderation is needed in the form of a little PM, however some heavy handed moderation should never be tolerated unless its a private channel. Public channels like badges and taskforces WILL get a tiny bit of off topic banter now and then but imo it is fine UNTIL somebody wants to use the channel for its actual use, then it should be taken to off topic channels.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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Originally Posted by Redbone
The quick answer is because if YOU have have a 10 minute off-topic discussion then so can everyone else. If 100 people all start a nonconcurant 10 minute conversation that's 1,000 minutes of offtopic discussion. 16 hours 40 minutes, and that's if they all conduct just one off topic one. if they get involved in it nad have several, you can fill the day easily. If each 10 minute conversation is just one line ever 10 seconds, that's 6,000 offtopic lines in which the actual topic is now mixed.
So what do you do? Lose the original topic in the off topic stuff or crack down hard or decide on a case by case basis and then no one knows the rules for what will get them silenced? And if you do go case by case, how do you avoid being viewed as showing favoritism ("Hey, Wendy went on for 10 minutes about which powerset combo was better: Dual Kittens/Catnip Buff or Sun Worshiping/Dog launchers, why can't I talk about which IO sets work best for Dog Launchers?")? |
That makes sense. Like I said I do belong to a channel that has a very open policy about discussing anything and I have had to turn them off from time to time. SOOO much chat is taking place that it constantly fill the screen and things that are important to me, like TF or Trials forming, slip by unseen.
I had the same problem years ago with an SG we had a coalition with. They were RPer and used coalition chat to RP because they had 7 other SGs that did the same thing. Their play time kept the screen so full there were times I'd miss directions from a team leader until I finally moved team chat to the other window. Thankfully they eventually decided they were unhappy with us and broke the coalition... One of the other leaders set up the coalition and it turned out we were the only SG that didn't do ERP in the entire coalition.. we weren't "playing" right ... we actually did missions and stuff. OMG they do what?
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
I've been on one where the mod wars got so bad (silencing, kicking, unsilencing, demoting etc) that a red name had to come in and fix it. The aggressive mod was forced to relax their stance a bit and it seems to be much better now. (Not virtue).
Some moderation is good. Over moderation is bad.
It's the difference between having a team leader who tells you which section will be cleared first and what AVs are priority targets
and having a team leader that tells the MM which pets to upgrade, tells the Rad which targets to apply his debuffs to and tells the scrapper what attack chain to use then kicking anybody who doesn't obey.
The first type works off the assumption that the people involved are generally intelligent and will know what to do. The second type works off the assumption that they are the one in charge and must be obeyed with no questions asked.
If you want to run a successful channel you have to do it the same way. Occasional off topic chatter is fine so long as it isn't preventing the channel being used for it's intended purpose, and most people know that. I have never seen a heavily scrolling global channel except for those intended for general discussion or rp. A few questions and comments does not constitute complete anarchy.
I now like to refer to those tightly controlled global channels as Praetorian channels. Shut up citizen, it's for your own good.
Don't count your weasels before they pop dink!
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One thing to keep in mind is that different people have different tolerances for what constitutes "over-moderation".|
Originally Posted by Mandu
Some moderation is good. Over moderation is bad.
It's the difference between having a team leader who tells you which section will be cleared first and what AVs are priority targets |
To continue the team leader example, there is one guy that I will NEVER join a team he is leading. I have no problem teaming with him when he isn't the leader and from what I have seen he's a nice guy but I find his leadership style to be way to controlling so I don't join teams he is leading. Conversely I'm sure there are people who like his leadership style and find my laid back "do whatever you want and we'll figure it out" style frustrating.
In both cases it isn't really a matter of "good" or "bad" it's a matter of being consistent and having a style that suits the other people involved.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
One thing to keep in mind is that different people have different tolerances for what constitutes "over-moderation".
To continue the team leader example, there is one guy that I will NEVER join a team he is leading. I have no problem teaming with him when he isn't the leader and from what I have seen he's a nice guy but I find his leadership style to be way to controlling so I don't join teams he is leading. Conversely I'm sure there are people who like his leadership style and find my laid back "do whatever you want and we'll figure it out" style frustrating. In both cases it isn't really a matter of "good" or "bad" it's a matter of being consistent and having a style that suits the other people involved. |
Well this is sort of off topic Adeon. (looks around to make sure no mod is wating to poince on me LOL) But I have teamed with you on numerous occasions on the trials and I enjoy your style. You run a good league and give players the info they need. I have teamed with the other type that Mandu described and frankly by the end of the Task Force I was ready to aim my attacks at him instead of the AV.
'Why thank you very much for that insighful input but I somehow managed to get this Rad/Rad defender all the way to level 50 without your help. I have numerous accolades including TF commander and I do already have the badge for this TF so I have managed to complete it at least one time before. I think I know how to utilze my primary and secondary powers. Perhaps you can bother the Scrapper over there .. It doesn't look like he's maximizing the effectiveness of his attacks."
hehehehe I have you on my friends list and look for you when I am on line along with a number of other leaders I have 5 starred
(did I embarass him with that? )
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
It's easier to moderate a blanket rule (no off topic) too.
No drama about so&so getting to chat when I didn't. Or I was allowed to chat this time yesterday. Etc etc.
I have plenty of social chat channels, so I don't mind my team finding ones to be uncluttered.
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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Speaking to this particular phenomenon, silencing a user is sometimes used as a warning or a temporary punishment for breaking the channel rules. I have seen users silenced for periods as short as 10 minutes, sometimes enough to let them cool their heads instead of trying to get in the last word or another jab. I've seen users silenced by the same moderator one day and unsilenced the next. I've rarely seen it occur from differing views on moderators' parts.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
It just strikes me as funny from time to time when I see 9 or 10 members being unsilenced and allowed to chat again. Almost seems like one mod has one set of standards and another has his or her set. The nightshift shift guy silences 10 players for not staying on topic. Then day shift guy comes in, shakes his head and mutters "Not again!" and opens everyone back up.
I like the comments I am seeing though obviously different people have different views of what is or isn't good moderating and guess what .. that's a right we all have here. headed back into the game for a while take care and have fun! |
My personal preference for moderating goes like this: one warming in channel, one warning send via tell, then a brief silencing. Three strikes on short silences will buy someone a 2-3 day silence. Problems that persist from there are looking to be kicked and/or banned from the channel.
IMO since Global Channels are made by players for players, however the channel admins choose to moderate it is their prerogative. If non admin players have a problem with how it's being moderated, they are always free to leave and start a new one.
The only time I have a problem with global channel moderation is when a non admin takes over the channel. Such as in the case with a GM on Victory not too long ago.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
My response to people who tell me to stay on topic:
SUCK IT
If they want me to stay on topic, they'll have to silence me. Camaraderie helps build community and relationships.
And I like to build things before I destroy them.
I don't play on virtue but I do mod a few channels. In general when you join certain channels you will be told their rules ahead of time or they are posted on the forums or in the MotD. If you can't abide by them then don't join. If the channel is for TF or teaming and people arn't talking about them I would say a mod absolutly should step in and give a quick hey guys this isn't what this channel is for word. If they don't listen then silencing for a few hours is usually enough to re-enforce the channel rules.
Personally I am the ***** Mod for the channel I moderate most. It's a family channel with a no drama rule and I have silence quite a few people including friends. Most understand it's not personal it's a PITA job if your doing it right.
As far as the why can't you go off topic? Well it sets a precident and also it sets out the possibility of the apearence of unfair moderation if some are allowed to go off topic and others aren't. (I have heard issues with this in a champion global channel). You will never make everyone happy with something like this, to try to do so is foolish. Stay consistant and true to the channel's set rules is the best you can do.
Personally i don't like game only topic channels as i like to chat a lot.
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
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Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
IMO since Global Channels are made by players for players, however the channel admins choose to moderate it is their prerogative. If non admin players have a problem with how it's being moderated, they are always free to leave and start a new one.
The only time I have a problem with global channel moderation is when a non admin takes over the channel. Such as in the case with a GM on Victory not too long ago. |
You have to remember that the channels are still subject to in game rules and moderation, also it would be good to point out the CS people do not police that stuff randomly. A member of that channel reported that MotD and that's how they knew and steped in. While i didn't find it offensive someone either did or was just being a ***** idk, but again they have to enforce CoH rules it's their job.
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
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Originally Posted by Chyron HR
How many members do you think a popular channel has online at any given time? Surely at least a hundred.
Presumably they joined the channel because they wanted to hear about TFs forming or whatever the channel topic is. Do you think that one hundred people want to have their chat window spammed with someone's random conversation? For ten minutes straight? |
Oh some that I belong to have a LOT more than that. I have seen as many as 200-300 on a couple. And my heavens yes I can certainly understand a MOD stepping in if two, three or however many started a 10-15 minute long constant barrage of text discussing .... well discussing anything really. I mean come on if its the badge channel you could civer everything associated with a certain badge including the design of it in less time than that! a Task Force or LFG channel? how long does it take to type "Posi 1 forming in Steel. looking for 4 members PST to Wendy for invite" or "50(+3) Blaster looking for Lambda"
And even on the channel I have referred to a few times I have seen Mods step in and tell players to get back on topic that were discussing the latests Super Hero movie to hit the theaters. OKAY it is about superheroes but no where near a topic that is helping anyone in game.
I think the thing is that this is a very social game compared to some others. I have friends I have known for years and when we get together we discuss everything from how the week went for each of us, to the weather (when its been bad lol), the new baby
(NO not mine! whew), jobs, and even what movies we have seen lately. Of course we are all in the same SG and are either going that one on one in tells or in SG or tem chat as we try to decide what task force, trial or missions we want to do together. I have always found this to be a very friendly and helpful community which is the main reason I still play the game after close to 6 years. I'm sure many people here have the same experiences and we tend to fall into the habit of discussing whatever, whenever and where ever we happen to be. I think if a member of a channel asks a simple question about something in game and gets a quick and accurate response then regardless of if its on topic or not as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else it's fine... even the channel I have been referring to doesn't immediately jump on any member as soon as a single post that is off topic appears. The problems arise when player one asks a question. Player two responds with an answer, Player three's answer follow a second or two later since he or she typed slower and had no idea player two was responding. Now Player one is happy and thanks both two and three. In the mean time Player four has jumped into the conversation with some added information on that question that two and three didn't cover. A detailed discussion of all the points broought up begins between all four players and now maybe even a fifth, sixth or whatever start to chime in with their thoughts on the topic. I KNOW sounds involved doesn't it but I HAVE seen just that sort of thing happen and then as these people develope a bit of a friendship the topic can switch to whatever and they are laughinmg and joking while other members of the channel are trying to use it for its actual purpose. At that point, actually long before that point, I can see where the MOD would want to hop in and steer the conversation back to where it belongs.
As long as the conversation is short and simply resolves a problem a player has I have never seen a MOD go insane and jump on anyone in any of the channels I belong to.. and I belong to a LOT lol. There are plenty of other channels and even places players can meet to chat about the new Thor movie or what their kids did last week. We all like to make new friends here.. its one of the best things about the game.. but that doesn't need to monopolize the conversation in a channel that is there to provide a service on one aspect of the game.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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I know it's their jobs but there are so many personalities and senses of humor out there IMO it's better to leave the moderation to people that have a better understanding of each other. Some of us just have real "a" hole sense of humors that isn't understood by someone form the outside looking in. I'm a mod in that channel, when I saw it, it didn't offend me. In a sense I wish that person that reported it would have spoken to another one of the channel mods and let us deal with it ourselves. Handle things "in house" first since it's a player started and player ran Global channel.|
Originally Posted by Phillygirl
You have to remember that the channels are still subject to in game rules and moderation, also it would be good to point out the CS people do not police that stuff randomly. A member of that channel reported that MotD and that's how they knew and steped in. While i didn't find it offensive someone either did or was just being a ***** idk, but again they have to enforce CoH rules it's their job.
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Besides if I had a dollar for every MoTD on that channel that could be deemed offensive I'd be able to pay for a lifetime subscription to CoX...
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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To be 100% honest some of this is coming from not being able to get a hold of a GM when I'm locked out of TF missions, but a GM finding the time to change a MOTD.
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Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
I know it's their jobs but there are so many personalities and senses of humor out there IMO it's better to leave the moderation to people that have a better understanding of each other. Some of us just have real "a" hole sense of humors that isn't understood by someone form the outside looking in. I'm a mod in that channel, when I saw it, it didn't offend me. In a sense I wish that person that reported it would have spoken to another one of the channel mods and let us deal with it ourselves. Handle things "in house" first since it's a player started and player ran Global channel.
Besides if I had a dollar for every MoTD on that channel that could be deemed offensive I'd be able to pay for a lifetime subscription to CoX... |
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
Quote:
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Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
I know it's their jobs but there are so many personalities and senses of humor out there IMO it's better to leave the moderation to people that have a better understanding of each other. Some of us just have real "a" hole sense of humors that isn't understood by someone form the outside looking in. I'm a mod in that channel, when I saw it, it didn't offend me. In a sense I wish that person that reported it would have spoken to another one of the channel mods and let us deal with it ourselves. Handle things "in house" first since it's a player started and player ran Global channel.
Besides if I had a dollar for every MoTD on that channel that could be deemed offensive I'd be able to pay for a lifetime subscription to CoX... |
Lmao well I agree with you there, the only thing I could say (playing devils advocate) is perhaps they thought since the "channel lead" put it in the mods would be unaproachable? or maybe they would be singled out.
It's hard to say what people will find offensive, i've offended a few people without meaning too and have been somewhat stuborn in being aproachable about it lol. Some peoples comfort lvl with being upfront is vastly different then others.
I honestly was suprised to find out what the motd was that got mod'd.
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
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A little over dramatic, ya think? VU2011 has a hundred people on it and has never threatened to spam out my chat window despite being a social chat channel AND being used for teams, TFs, etc. Heck, you don't even see ten straight minutes of a couple people talking most of the time.|
Originally Posted by Chyron HR
How many members do you think a popular channel has online at any given time? Surely at least a hundred.
Presumably they joined the channel because they wanted to hear about TFs forming or whatever the channel topic is. Do you think that one hundred people want to have their chat window spammed with someone's random conversation? For ten minutes straight? |
Obviously who ever is the mods, it's their rules, etc etc. I'm not denying that. But your comments go well over the border into SillyLand in your defense of heavy moderation. One would think there's a middle ground between strict moderation and spamming chaos.
Edit: I conflated Chyron's argument with that of Redbone who said:
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| The quick answer is because if YOU have have a 10 minute off-topic discussion then so can everyone else. If 100 people all start a nonconcurant 10 minute conversation that's 1,000 minutes of offtopic discussion. 16 hours 40 minutes, and that's if they all conduct just one off topic one. if they get involved in it nad have several, you can fill the day easily. If each 10 minute conversation is just one line ever 10 seconds, that's 6,000 offtopic lines in which the actual topic is now mixed. |
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*grimace* The problem with this is that it becomes perceived as selective enforcement.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I feel that problems should only be addressed when they are or are about to become problems, at least when it comes to social interaction.
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Scenario:
Person A posts something off-topic.
Persons B, C, and D discuss it briefly
Off-topic conversation doesn't get out of hand, moderators ignore it.
A little later, person E posts something similar.
Persons F, G, and H get into a heated argument about it and people won't shut up about it, including a side argument about whether or not this is the place for the original argument.
Moderator notices that fast-scrolling chat is making it impossible for people to use the channel for what it was meant for, issues warning, which fails, silencing persons E, F, G, and H.
One or more of E, F, G, and H take their *deleted*-hurt to other channels, to Atlas and Cap au Diable broadcast, and to the server and general forums, complaining that the moderators look the other way when persons A-D break the rules, but punish persons E-H.
Because they're the kind of people who get defensive when challenged and insist on the last word (or else this wouldn't have happened), they get defensive and insist on the last word when you accuse them of being defensive and wanting the last word; flame war spirals out of hand.
Alternative scenario:
Person A brings up something off-topic.
Persons B, C, and D reply.
Moderator says, "knock it off."
Person E decides to have his off-topic rant, discussion, or whatever elsewhere. Solved problem.
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Hah. That channel was taken over by the people that complained of over-moderation and more people are being silenced now than before.|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
there is a channel on Triumph that is run by a most strict and capricious lot that silences people right and left. Triumph LFT is a recommended channel.
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When a channel's MOTD and description (found in the channel search window) are clear that the channel is moderated, people should expect mods to act. If they disagree with the level of moderation, then the are free to choose if they prefer that level of moderation or make a new channel that is less moderated.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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When I complain that the server doesn't participate in zone events, I get silenced. When one of Maya's cronies uses racially based invective against a sitting mod of the channel, that person skates.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Hah. That channel was taken over by the people that complained of over-moderation and more people are being silenced now than before.
When a channel's MOTD and description (found in the channel search window) are clear that the channel is moderated, people should expect mods to act. If they disagree with the level of moderation, then the are free to choose if they prefer that level of moderation or make a new channel that is less moderated. |
This is what I mean by capricious, strict rules for your social outsiders.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
I think TF channels are for TF discussion. If there's an extended discussion on a TF channel about power selection, I don't see a problem with a mod asking people to take it elsewhere.
Some of my characters