Definitely interesting.
Here's another 8.75% global recharge (now 235%) plus slotted Tough and a few more hit points to help with when the bad guys get lucky. It knocked about 4 seconds off of Elude's recharge, so now it's a couple seconds under the duration of Hibernate. I think Hasten can't stack with itself, which is why I gutted it.
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1441;680;1360;HEX;| |78DA6594D95213511086CF90842521818861CB0A4808090C8960B995E5858085C52| |810BDB4A8110E64641C52C9C4C2DDB7F04E444A9FC187D14770B9F13AF4F47F88B1| |924AEA3BF34FFFDD7D664EC7385AEE17E2FD6DA145EED866BDBE5DDEA999D5AAACF| |51A0DD774AD4347F4082162E7F2B6216D29F5CD8665DBF5744B5D967BD2A94BBDDC| |F0AEB6E49E2D8F643DBAE654644D3AAE7EBE086E1C1EDA7AB92AE56E9897ABD67EC| |5B59CFD285F19A663551B36D7C57D43EE5A3B9623532B556B472FBBA67D4005D6E5| |73CB742BA6B36D987557D65E8C528F05FA1D7BCDF2A7E917B35D4294443007E419F| |D59A0C030BC708DC30322A2795257100831FC616080118931EE934B83CBAFC1D50D| |57375CBD70F5C2F580C27D08173E64382129A032044EB995C847C6E00963F89831F| |A89F199C27BD4AE7AE61057625C28322EEAC002638362FB54C1BE09E14993248594| |142AB0A491144652116ED2476C9232A08206D0E82949510405A24F51D266640E181| |316F00CA830C6C935A45C43700DC3358AF071845F428E19B8B6C81553E563F3DC63| |92A411B5F19184CF936693400A4833F219C6170A1F538F75EC1A2A5D67246E00371| |9A95B8C3485C7559B71644F217B0AD933C89E41F6A938F754265752B599C453FA4A| |525A254A5FE6DC538BC012367A05B8CA287DE3440FC935A9124D22D12392A6D5799| |C8EB294C591CAE2A529CCFC071FB9726ADB396FFF49911F07E28CF904A394647CF7| |6156BC2285D7DCD1DC2BE025F08631FF1678C7F8412E5DBD0A7D99A585156015B88| |BCDAD31FED2BF4A519DAE22DA4CF85BB3495FEFC0A5FDADF16BE63BEE163B945287| |B2D8A12C7528EBFFAAD0206242FC4A2149E3A0BE41BA07A5F933D89A6FA1E120FE6| |E97EED16246FC6A97721CF5A75DFAC095BCE4CD0DD29B6A9F8FDBD666DBFA49DB7A| |9386A7A4D6679D88E8B0| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
You beat me to the tough thing. Also Hasten and Practiced Brawler. I should point out that Hibernate *still* doesn't cover the crash fully in real life because you forgot Elude's 2 second cast time and the fact that its not easy to trigger Hibernate at the same instant Elude actually crashes. Your gap is 30.06 seconds. If you use Geas, which you can only do every other cycle or so, recharge will drop to 205.64 seconds, which you now have a fighting chance of full covering, since the gap is now 27.64 seconds.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Definitely interesting.
Here's another 8.75% global recharge (now 235%) plus slotted Tough and a few more hit points to help with when the bad guys get lucky. It knocked about 4 seconds off of Elude's recharge, so now it's a couple seconds under the duration of Hibernate. I think Hasten can't stack with itself, which is why I gutted it. |
This probably is as good as Elude gets, but it still has close to 30 seconds of downtime in between cycles even with Geas, and it gives up a lot of regen and max health.
And here's something really weird, or at least interesting. Your variant of Murdok's build has 8.75 second cycle time on Aid Self, compared to 11.47 seconds for mine. That's expected. What's interesting is that I only four-slot aid self, including one interrupt reduction, and I end up with a 42.55% heal compared to the 6-slot version in the Murdok build generating 43.33%. The reason is basically we both slot Spiritual Total in our builds. So his aid self (or rather, your variation with the slightly more recharge) maxes out at 4.95%/sec or about 66.3 h/s, while mine peaks at 3.71%/sec or 49.6 h/s. His build has 13.9 h/s regen while mine has 32.31 h/s. The net total is 80.2 h/s for his, 81.9 h/s for mine, a tiny win for me but almost a wash.
The difference, then really comes down to resistances, psionic defense, and max health (while Elude is up). I have more s/l: 19.9% vs 17.9/15.4%. He has more f/c: 12.6% vs 8%. I have more psionic defense: 14% vs zero. I have more max health: 143.6% vs 127.5%. His build basically wins on elemental, mine edges out everywhere else. Outside of tohit buffs, I should keep mentioning. While Elude is up, his build is "Apex capped" and can resist a couple of stacks of veng, plus he's capped to turrets and pets which make a mess of my build. But its not so good against eyeballs and quartz, which basically shred both our builds.
Here's my current soft-capped build, which is basically done (finally). I haven't crafted the Very Rare Spiritual yet, but I have all the components to do so and then some. Just haven't gotten around to it yet. This way, people can compare a soft-cap build that tries to get as much survivability as possible without breaking something important somewhere. Whether I succeeded or not is debatable. And yes, Werner, I have recharge slotted in PB. I was going to swap it for endred, I swear, but I haven't gotten to it yet because I haven't run out of endurance yet with conserve power up as often as it is.
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1430;704;1408;HEX;| |78DA65936B4F53411086F7F49C522814A85C0A1468B9F7420FAD97C4286A5444418| |A8502DF4C3DB40B548F6DD39604BEF91B340113F59BA2FE382FBFC03A67DEA53469| |93E6D99979776676CF6CFA64A54788770F84D6FBD8B66AB55C365FB52A1559F56C5| |AF5E3AA65FBF68A655BD6C3DBC76FF76DE91142042F25B9B4B4A534D356B55EB4EC| |DCC36ABD166AC656E4812CD5A4993D76AC6D7960CB1359F3AF958E645596EAE6E5A| |227532EDBE686B42AC5D2A18F8DD5E2E151BD69A565A1982F96A497AD6C45CA82FF| |49A598371F950BA7B9B455ABCBEAE908F515A5FF99D320FF1A869877099112AE081| |063185120CE483B724DC95775C7D5B1CEE87FCA185E638C3C679C7B949AE4DA2BC1| |F202A3731FC833BC92B149721DD9751DD9BD483B82B463A8F591746EA475BBBF726| |33DDF800B46EF77E007A3FF27E305EDF220BBCBE3A2C582986D0807F3FF18191274| |21ADE88A7347C3E4EAC61EADFB16C1D0C5E490E684340AF994DAB78CD016F9FA548| |9BE4E2E316F00D8F489047ED5B9FF804B5C7B0D1C3106DF00CF0813749B0C9D760D| |A87B1918D61C576C896F221680759DAD6DD20D412786129CC82057406D0DA095B17| |E6E65BC83AD7134F69974A3EA4B8DDEE5FB9ABC0DDC614C2D3366EF31B2240FAA83| |060739C32C122D207BC0E3F485562622DCCA17728554891086218C2908630AC2188| |D290CC30EC9A755E7D3483A3300A0E00C0A4E906E0E69B5B95DF490658428124144| |8F20B218E4DC8B3BB0A0CBD2E5C555AF717CF75D72996AABB9C4475E328124B0C8B| |8A00948AA2693289142D2D41670CEBA71A3F9CC8450C3B2D1EAC3D7CA18CDF72234| |7412329A2FAE91F13A87C4FA65CBDA6A59EFB7ACBBFAE93D215DE317F935351B1AA| |AFD6E75E11BFDB972B9B5351E9028CE13C5E912F779E012EB1C4BECB1F3EFD52E5D| |3BC3B8E0DC0B1F18D1F78C64EB891BF413B1364FAACD73B3CD73A3CDF31F1273D7E| |6| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Edit: one other build variation I agonized over a lot before making up my mind: if you want more recharge and are willing to sacrifice some maxhealth, you shift one slot from PP to LBE, losing 25 points of max health and gaining +10% recharge. The 10% recharge ultimately didn't seem to do much for my build, though, because it wasn't enough to compress out EC from my attack chain. So I went with the +health. Considering recharge is not the focus of the build, I think +87.5% recharge is not bad, and its basically better than old school perma-hasten.
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Quote:
Well, we can get a little more if we go insane. Drop Tough to put Spirit Shark back in. Unslot Focused Senses (make do with a L53 Enzyme) and slot Stupefy in Boxing. That's 2.5% more global recharge. Put all recharges in Elude. Now we're recharging in under 205 seconds. I wouldn't do that, of course.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
This probably is as good as Elude gets
|
If I were playing a build like this, I'd probably be running Herostats to have the best chance at proper timing. But yeah, I'd think there'd be a few dicey seconds no matter how good I got. Still, when Hibernate drops, you're still sitting on around 30% defense, and you should be back to full health, and you've got at least a tiny bit of resistance. It'd be hard to put you down in a few seconds, I think. Elude, Aid Self, should be good to go again.
At least the down time is less than the 40 seconds per cycle I was imagining. Not that 30 seconds or so is that much better. I'm pretty sure it would drive me insane. Still, interesting. I never really thought that much recharge was possible on a playable build. I don't think it's better than a well-designed soft cap build, but it still warms my heart just knowing this build exists.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
Going all recharge in Elude I thought about. You'd still be Apex and pet capped, but you'd lose some cushion on things like Veng, which are one of the reasons I would even consider this sort of thing. Tough call.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Well, we can get a little more if we go insane. Drop Tough to put Spirit Shark back in. Unslot Focused Senses (make do with a L53 Enzyme) and slot Stupefy in Boxing. That's 2.5% more global recharge. Put all recharges in Elude. Now we're recharging in under 205 seconds. I wouldn't do that, of course.
|
Quote:
| If I were playing a build like this, I'd probably be running Herostats to have the best chance at proper timing. But yeah, I'd think there'd be a few dicey seconds no matter how good I got. Still, when Hibernate drops, you're still sitting on around 30% defense, and you should be back to full health, and you've got at least a tiny bit of resistance. It'd be hard to put you down in a few seconds, I think. Elude, Aid Self, should be good to go again. |
One more thing: I don't know what happens if you trigger Hibernate *before* Elude crashes and then it crashes inside of Elude. Hibernate has recovery in it, but it also quixotically has end costs. I wonder if you can have a bad luck crash that takes out Hibernate itself? Sort of like the old school double DP/Unstop crash. That would suck: it would be like backflip death all over again.
Quote:
| At least the down time is less than the 40 seconds per cycle I was imagining. Not that 30 seconds or so is that much better. I'm pretty sure it would drive me insane. Still, interesting. I never really thought that much recharge was possible on a playable build. I don't think it's better than a well-designed soft cap build, but it still warms my heart just knowing this build exists. |
My best speed demon is my Ill/Rad, which is working towards a 212.5% recharge build (before Alpha) although my Energy/Energy blaster can see spikes of 257.5% recharge when the Force Feedback proc goes off (and I see that often, because its slotted in all four of my ranged attacks including both AoEs). When that happens, with spiritual core paragon she would be grazing the recharge cap on some attacks. For example, Bonesmasher for those five seconds is experiencing 4.86 total recharge.
A range-capped build would have been a more efficient use of influence, but 486% recharge, man.
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Yeah, 71% didn't strike me as insane enough. I have 75% melee/lethal defense on my Katana/Dark, after all, which applies to a whole lot of incoming damage. 85% and above, now THAT sounds insane enough, and might be worth a couple more seconds of risk every few minutes. And even if it isn't on paper, it's the point of the build, so you might as well go for it. I'm sure you get very, very good at managing those few nasty seconds with practice. Heck, just pop some inspirations if you need to.
I admit that I didn't think about the 30% defense being not very useful in the cases where this build shines. That makes the crash a little uglier than I thought.
Yeah, I don't know what happens if you hit Hibernate right before the crash. I assume that, since it's a toggle, it crashes. But you also need endurance to hit it. So... Elude crash, blue, Hibernate? Not sure how it works. I bet Murdok knows. 
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Made some more changes, some of them expensive. But now in comparison to Murdok's original build:
10% more global rechargeI suspect there's still room to grow. There are a lot of options still.
~3.5 seconds faster recharge on Elude
~5% higher defense while Elude is up (~1% lower when down. Yes, I know adding defense is silly, and recharge would be better, but insane defense is the point of the build. Might as well go for it.)
~20% higher smashing/lethal resistance
~3% higher resistance to everything else
49% more regeneration + Panacea proc
50 more hit points
Water Spout now slotted as an attack (or could swap for Spirit Shark for another 15 hit points)
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1456;704;1408;HEX;| |78DA65946B53125118C7CFCA228282A2E18D3B2622C8CAA6DDA7E9455EC6C92D959| |A5E35CE2647D9581766591A7BD7B7E85D664E7D816E5FA63E429737BDA6679FE748| |DBC0C0FC0EFFF37F2E67790EDAC9DA0863AFEE322972CFD4DBEDFDEA81ADB75ADC1| |ED23A8EEE184D6B5CEBD8B5666329F384DB16B733C7CD5A803116BB30EE6BDCE45C| |D9ED18A6D94EF7D4357EC8AD3657AA1DF7DB1E3F34F9096F47B7AC3AB7B9E528178| |BD04EB3692AD516E7B5302E378CA3BA63584751FCA6E996D1EA98D809ED6BBC661C| |18164FADB78C03A5EAE866030A6CF31786EED4756B5FD3DB0EB75F4E438F45F89CB| |ACDE2AB2BB3C501C654162A108A88913CA184D05CBB84763F8B48AE3410220C23E4| |3061141189211E4094445192741D10F0B1C1FB3E77EB216CF9688BF9C87D06929F2| |4D97F8E65236F10636788C953C4F45BC43BB007C409024BE45311E315C42585B08C| |D8016F50140C66992BE5401A16D270092509A4302565E12EBCD82E28A3C2344A8D9| |E831425933FFA9C4A9A884C03913508C7843A6216A22644D404454D52D434D967C9| |7E99722C50D41E44C544F958197B4C8234250E3E95C0A7B99824A40869443183780| |FF619F158676E50A59B88C42DC26D44EA0E220DF6B868334ED953943D45D933943D| |43D9E7E2D85315A292A2CD243DA50F20A5459BE92B987B6E85B04A07BD4AB886780| |4F69CC890A30C8F419A1743371F45294FD396DFC4E279FAD116FE830FA20A22AAE0| |1E3CC98AB38438A29C202411EA14E21B242C896E4B1F31D1D227C267C21744F92BE| |23BD8156157D6F000CBEB840DC22642DD42FC813F938A18AB0AB599907B1710DEEE| |A4A5E5DE1DEB16FB762B7D8ADAA7ACF429AB5E2588BD6C7B259AA81D59140649C2B| |8E0185C4F52BA3F42BD5BCC240AF8F54F92251A92419A8E219A8E219A0E358BF8E9| |CD50C00CBFBDD26BBAA121F77F826A3EF5AC75CFFA9967BD0BB74915EBBFD0DFE73| |C| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
Have you considered (in addition to the PP/LBE switch) dropping EC entirely, replacing it with Hasten, 2-3 slot Hasten, use one of the freed up slots to add a D/R IO to Storm Kick, change the Hecatomb: Damage in SK to Hecatomb: D/R, and using another freed up slot to add a R to Cobra Strike (optional I suppose)?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Edit: one other build variation I agonized over a lot before making up my mind: if you want more recharge and are willing to sacrifice some maxhealth, you shift one slot from PP to LBE, losing 25 points of max health and gaining +10% recharge. The 10% recharge ultimately didn't seem to do much for my build, though, because it wasn't enough to compress out EC from my attack chain. So I went with the +health. Considering recharge is not the focus of the build, I think +87.5% recharge is not bad, and its basically better than old school perma-hasten.
|
You could get some more breathing room from changing the Pounding Slugfests in CAK to something with a bit more Recharge too.
Quote:
The pounding slugfests are there specifically because of their regen bonus. As this was a build focused on survivability, short of actually neutering my offense I was trying to build for maximum regen and health outside of reasonable soft-capped defenses.|
Originally Posted by Stargazer
Have you considered (in addition to the PP/LBE switch) dropping EC entirely, replacing it with Hasten, 2-3 slot Hasten, use one of the freed up slots to add a D/R IO to Storm Kick, change the Hecatomb: Damage in SK to Hecatomb: D/R, and using another freed up slot to add a R to Cobra Strike (optional I suppose)?
You could get some more breathing room from changing the Pounding Slugfests in CAK to something with a bit more Recharge too. |
Plus, someone (and I'm afraid its slipped my mind who first did this) actually did the calculations for an optimized MA chain without EC and with enough speed to close the chain vs a chain with EC, and discovered that while the non-EC chain, even with the crit bonus working perfectly, was better, it was only something like 10% better or less. Since going for enough recharge to do that was only going to improve offense by 15 dps or so, I decided not to go for that and go for incrementally improved survivability.
Plus, I would miss the backflip. If losing EC would buy me 30% more damage or something, I'd consider it. Closer to 10% - under ideal conditions - and I'll keep the backflip. The higher recharge would help Dragon's Tail, I will admit.
On the subject of underslotting attacks for recharge in general: by the time I finalized these builds, I already had a clear picture of Alpha. So since I had already decided to go Spiritual in the build, I didn't feel at the time that moderate recharge in attacks would be a big penalty. I'll be honest though, I've never actually done the thought experiment you describe, and actually hand calculated what the damage improvement would be. I guess I should, although it would be a pain in the neck to change now.
What nags at me more is the feeling that I've overlooked a way to improve survivability without completely neutering offense. I don't know why I have that feeling, its just a feeling that I'm missing something. I suppose you've just been staring at a build too long when your SR scrapper has 400% regen, and you're wondering if you've short-changed her somehow.
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Quote:
It says something Werner, it really does, that for a second there I had a heart attack when I misread that and thought you had figured out how to give that build 20% more s/l than your previous build rather than just 20% s/l (Murdok's build does have 2.5% smashing).|
Originally Posted by Werner
Made some more changes, some of them expensive. But now in comparison to Murdok's original build:
10% more global rechargeI suspect there's still room to grow. There are a lot of options still. |
It was only a matter of time before you found somewhere to put the Shield wall. Mine cost 1.61 billion, by the way: the price on that fluctuates wildly. And its one of those that you can often get the crafted for less than the recipe. I got mine crafted when the recipes were going for 1.8. Go figure.
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Quote:
Well, even with keeping the Pounding Slugfests, CAK should (assuming a Spiritual Total Radial Revamp) recharge in 3.23s. That should be enough to finish recharging before 2*SK + CS is done activating. You could also change the PS: D/E (or A/D) to a PS: D/R, which would cut the recharge down to 3.05s, while keeping the Regen. (another kinda neat option would be to 6-slot Mako's Bite in CAK, giving you 3.75% extra Ranged Def. Could be nice in some cases...)|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The pounding slugfests are there specifically because of their regen bonus. As this was a build focused on survivability, short of actually neutering my offense I was trying to build for maximum regen and health outside of reasonable soft-capped defenses.
|
You'd lose 1.125% HP from the Crushing Impact in EC, but you could use one of the "extra" slots to get that back. An extra Numina in Aid Other would for instance give you 1.874% more, but I suppose this could be seen as offsetting the loss of 1.874% from PP instead. If you sacrifice a little recharge in Hasten (2-slot instead of 3-slot), you could however get the extra 1.125% from another LotG in Weave.
Of course, this doesn't really matter if you want to keep EC.
Quote:
Very nice. I had not thought to drop the slots from hasten but in retrospect, that's a brilliant move.
|
Originally Posted by Werner
Made some more changes, some of them expensive. But now in comparison to Murdok's original build:
10% more global rechargeI suspect there's still room to grow. There are a lot of options still. Code:
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Quote:
The problem with 6-slotting Mako is that it underslots damage. One alternate slotting I was playing around with was 5-slot Crushing into CAK (all but Damage/End) and put the Mako proc in there. More recharge slotted, plus extra +5% global recharge, and with Spiritual Total Core CAK is recharging in 3.6 seconds, fast enough for SK->CS->SK->CAK, and I don't have to lose EC (which is actually a decent buff on DT when the darned crit buff works).|
Originally Posted by Stargazer
Well, even with keeping the Pounding Slugfests, CAK should (assuming a Spiritual Total Radial Revamp) recharge in 3.23s. That should be enough to finish recharging before 2*SK + CS is done activating. You could also change the PS: D/E (or A/D) to a PS: D/R, which would cut the recharge down to 3.05s, while keeping the Regen. (another kinda neat option would be to 6-slot Mako's Bite in CAK, giving you 3.75% extra Ranged Def. Could be nice in some cases...)
You'd lose 1.125% HP from the Crushing Impact in EC, but you could use one of the "extra" slots to get that back. An extra Numina in Aid Other would for instance give you 1.874% more, but I suppose this could be seen as offsetting the loss of 1.874% from PP instead. If you sacrifice a little recharge in Hasten (2-slot instead of 3-slot), you could however get the extra 1.125% from another LotG in Weave. Of course, this doesn't really matter if you want to keep EC. |
I lose a little bit of health and regen for a tighter chain, and I don't have to lose EC or take Hasten (which does require burning cast time to use, costing a little less than 1% total damage). Honestly, I'm still not sure if I shouldn't go that route, but I figured the costs to switch slotting if I change my mind are relatively small compared to the total costs of the build, so I decided to go with the Mako+PS for now. But you have me thinking I should have gone the other way.
I've probably stared at this build longer than I've though about all other builds for all other characters in seven years combined. Its really easy to get trapped in Mids and never get around to building and playing, so just decided to build it. And on the subject of Elude vs soft-cap, another decision I agonized over was Super Jump or Elude. Not a near-perma Elude of course, but a panic button Elude. I decided I wanted the travel, but I was biting my lip on that one also. Murdok's build now has me questioning the decision also. I wouldn't want to live within Elude's non-perma restrictions myself, but the more I think about the advantages of Elude, the more I think it would be nice to have around. I guess I could live with Ninja run and jump pack temp powers.
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Quote:
Okay, so the idea of trying to take a 400% Regen SR Build, and stick Hasten into it, keep it soft capped, and ...not take out Eagle's Claw? First thing that popped into my head was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHxIssSROjk I don't know why, but I got this major Scrapper mindset of unstoppable SR's, a few minutes later I pulled out my KM/SR, moved six slots and added four billion inf worth of nine enhancements and found that I too could manage 400% relatively quick, so I took KM out, plugged MA in, and there it was.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I've probably stared at this build longer than I've though about all other builds for all other characters in seven years combined. Its really easy to get trapped in Mids and never get around to building and playing, so just decided to build it. And on the subject of Elude vs soft-cap, another decision I agonized over was Super Jump or Elude. Not a near-perma Elude of course, but a panic button Elude. I decided I wanted the travel, but I was biting my lip on that one also. Murdok's build now has me questioning the decision also. I wouldn't want to live within Elude's non-perma restrictions myself, but the more I think about the advantages of Elude, the more I think it would be nice to have around. I guess I could live with Ninja run and jump pack temp powers.
|
So, a gift:
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1436;703;1406;HEX;| |78DA6593DB521341108667B31B0EE194C82140C0184EE1902C895AE59D168A94415| |603012F548C4B3284D554486DA282DEF80C5A0556A9778AFA701EDE20F6FE3D8454| |2505F54DFFD3DDD3DD3B631DADF60AF1FE96D0FAEF94ED5A2D9F2BB876B52A5DBF6| |5979C42D78A5BB02B76BCD62984889CEFE52D5996D2B46CB7EED8E5FC8A5BAF459B| |7BAB725F566AD2CCBDF2AC2DB95F9647B216CA540EA42B2B75F37CD19B3D3C2C9B1| |BD2AE3A95521F8C35A77450272B002B5795B2C81B962C3A05A7224377AB4EC1BC7D| |583CCE5B76AD2EDDE351AA6B91FE4FBC02F16BF8C563425CF89E001D4F81E02E30F| |70C88E701CB8BD2106588615AA485715FF7D0950186D6819135E001B96BECEED3D8| |DD77832C43175D8AA7E4A2AB3AF47D818C25A0E300083AC0DC0B60E125F089A2FC9| |CD8EFFFE6F3A4C077C61930F10398F909C47F01618AE2B61BA233820AB364777322| |D11D43EE8724F5B0A4F570D1D34380463B7D2ABE6F1CCE9B240DA80E07D83916041| |638E6333984547FA17B84497129C3E08E86B8BFCBDCFB0237BD455183AAACC12424| |9DA46196F4E1B0E66518BD8A1E2646604DA76119E41756E587D5904715BFD0DE982| |A66EC35D28EBF611C7115C7C0E25BC63B608AA222AAC7C812FB31E28CC94EEF7C3E| |727287879003BED24E541D187D0EE72B92B1C72800B1221FC8B3D8A6A829D5C2942| |A7D5A314A7BB39C519FE5B3E622884A6CC24A6C03391AC6BCFA56F35CE6197DBB25| |7579974E7123123731BA24274A728624D7BE43194CCE609809B82FA718698609A49| |7811C159652534AF14D48F31548F38598309A2F8EFEE827365A15FECA5943BD2F92| |3438458DE6936BEC06BC91F07AAF65DD1D6C3EA2C6EF40F3CD098D93FE6995E621F| |DBD900C6D5DF3DE76FF239439C24398C9409CD901FE5DB8EBDA07F4DB7BC2F808F4| |F33C536D3D2EB629E936E57A9B72AD4DD91CA4FCAA5DBBA5F56CCBFA3FEDF2DFF8| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Werner
Werner's last rendition of the "Perma-Elude"
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
Quote:
Interesting. I'm going to study this, although this would have been useful to have 20 billion inf ago |
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
So, a gift:
|
Quote:
| Nine 7.5% bonuses? Did I miss something between LotG's and PvP IO's? I pulled your rendition to check it out, and seeing some serious bonus overage unless I'm not aware of something between those particular items. |
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Quote:
You never asked :3|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Interesting. I'm going to study this, although this would have been useful to have 20 billion inf ago
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Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The rule of five applies to the *names* of the bonuses, if you are not aware. For all set bonuses that offer +7.5% recharge, the bonus is actually called "Improved Recharge Time 5." Its the 5th tier of recharge buff. LotG's buff is special: its called "Luck of the Gambler." As a result, the game thinks its a different buff. You can have up to five +7.5% recharge bonuses from sets *and* up to five LotG's separate from that.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
Quote:
By the way, CoH came out shortly after The Matrix Reloaded, so even though it took two issues to realize the dream, the first thing that pops into my head when I think MA/SR is still this..|
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
First thing that popped into my head was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHxIssSROjk I don't know why, but I got this major Scrapper mindset of unstoppable SR's
|
I remember the first time I rolled out with I2 Elude, not really knowing how strong it would be, and taking on a solo spawn. Totally ludicrous.
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Quote:
Slightly offtopic, does the 6-piece bonus from Gaussian count as its own, or is it just three times the 2.5% defense bonus and, thus, takes one of the "five slots"?
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The rule of five applies to the *names* of the bonuses, if you are not aware. For all set bonuses that offer +7.5% recharge, the bonus is actually called "Improved Recharge Time 5." Its the 5th tier of recharge buff. LotG's buff is special: its called "Luck of the Gambler." As a result, the game thinks its a different buff. You can have up to five +7.5% recharge bonuses from sets *and* up to five LotG's separate from that.
|
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Quote:
Ten, but yeah. |
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
Nine 7.5% bonuses?
|
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
Its not actually a snafu, its by design. I asked for them to be implemented that way in I9 beta. The original version, which only beta testers saw, was actually flagged unique and originally intended to be 5% recharge. I suggested that it be flagged non-unique and obey its own rule of five, for certain balance reasons having to do with, among other things, the existence of sets like SR that are pretty restricted in the sets they can slot. At the time, to basically just one. And Gift of the Ancient just wasn't going to cut it as an alternative (and it was flagged unique also, the most amazing example of over-conservative flagging in the history of the game).|
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
And, no, I wasn't aware of this snafu, I've generally built around the LotG's and other 7.5% Bonuses as being one in the same. I never realized there was a minor technicality that allowed one to over-collect them like that.
|
Incidentally, Mids intrinsicly knows the rule, so when it allows you to take five LotGs and five +7.5% recharge bonuses on top of that, its actually implementing the correct rule.
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Quote:
My understanding is that the 6-set Gaussian is three separate set bonuses of +2.5% defense, and does in fact count against the rule of five for +2.5% defense buffs for each of the three positional types.|
Originally Posted by Aliana Blue
Slightly offtopic, does the 6-piece bonus from Gaussian count as its own, or is it just three times the 2.5% defense bonus and, thus, takes one of the "five slots"?
|
The tier 3 positional defense buff isn't that common though, at least I don't think I've ever run into a prototype build of mine that ran into that cap before. I guess if you want to use a lot of Titanium Coatings or Gladiator's Armor sets you could hit that cap.
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Quote:
Yeah, I had noticed that, but I never bothered to question whether that was "WAI", and just built around it anyway.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Incidentally, Mids intrinsicly knows the rule, so when it allows you to take five LotGs and five +7.5% recharge bonuses on top of that, its actually implementing the correct rule.
|
On a side note, I noticed something in the build that bugged me, and made a change to CAK. The difference between 390% Regen at 140ish +MaxHP and 400% is only ~1 HP/s, moderate loss for the change I saw that puts another 5% Global Rech into the build. A change that, if my estimations are right, puts the build into SK > CS > SK > CAK Chain, puts Conserve Power just under 180 seconds (so 90 up, 90 down) and, tossing Conserve on every 90/s, the build (estimating 20 end per chain over 6 seconds is a -0.23eps burn, over add three focus chi's to toss it up to -0.35eps) should be fully sustainable. Burn about 32ish end with CP down (didn't really count Aid Self since it kind of washes itself out in it's animation time agianst your EPS gains), but net 90-100 while CP is up, so it will wash out it's end use altogether.
(Just slotted CAK like I had slotted EC, the chunk below just also includes the power moves to put Elude into the build. Which, btw, 95/s Downtime on Elude).
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1458;703;1406;HEX;| |78DA6D936B4F1341148667BB5B0AE5D6CAFD6629B772EBD25513BF69502401592D9| |4FA41C5B2B443596D4AD3AD0AFAC5DFA00998A8DF14F5C779F90778F63D43695237| |6D9E9977CE39FB9E991DFB68A5438877B785D675B7E4785E2E93AF3A958AAC066DA| |7E8E65B97AB79A7EC24BC901062E4622D67CB9294A6ED546BAE53CA2D576B5EACBE| |B622F765D99366E6A53FDB92FB257924BDE85AF9405665B9665E0CC2E9C3C39299A| |94859E8C470D52D1ED4DC729167B62CB879B72C3B30DB904E8596A2F72A6EDEBC73| |5838CED98E5793D5E341F265D2FFC43788E73C281E131222F00468790A447680996| |7402207D87E96862C43F4D1C012C67DDD47EB1AD0BB0EF4AF020F285CE3F080C6E1| |819B343374D1AA784A21BAF2A1EF0B542C022D0740C405669E03732F808F9415545| |9C1AF015F0A7F639C01A3DF81A91F40E227304159216527B48042571909469A02DA| |3840B4C5213D24A99D25AD9D5B98EC05345AE9640FA27318C19B2475AB177473703| |C02CC71CE270A882ADFD102614C5CD96538A8D09B675B92BBE5DEB728AB47D9EA49| |42D249EA6349EF1BD0FC0A83D7B0E7A3FD984D5A98191437A0EC0FA82D1F54FC4C6| |B43CACCD02B941D7ECD386217C7C0FC1BC65B608CB246384B1BC9728F192016F25F| |CCDD8FF1CAE226631BF8420131F5C2D82EAA8D73A3E37B0CEE3E5EE01772F7DB943| |5A15A9850D62715B3B436ADCC4C43136246AD65680366D5F9CCF2F99ED1792DA8CF| |77E114DFC4E22D6C5792FD26D96F921BCAEA7C57FC707311E14B2986C530016B09C| |89099943AFD149FBEC5C76EF147306AD4EF1CFDE8111B8D0A9F6CDA50378C240D41| |31A37EE9CE77C27EAB3CDE6B18B745EAD7E8FC57B87EEB84C6457F374AB390FE5C4| |A86B6AEF9B7BBEB116CF6F3264CAD419CCA027F2FC375ED3DFAED38617C00BA783F| |534D3DCE3729569372A349B9DEA46CF6507DD5AED3D07ABA61FCBFE71F0737F427| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
Quote:
That's a real shame, I was hoping it was a bug in Mids' |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
My understanding is that the 6-set Gaussian is three separate set bonuses of +2.5% defense, and does in fact count against the rule of five for +2.5% defense buffs for each of the three positional types.
The tier 3 positional defense buff isn't that common though, at least I don't think I've ever run into a prototype build of mine that ran into that cap before. I guess if you want to use a lot of Titanium Coatings or Gladiator's Armor sets you could hit that cap. |
I've run into the 2.5% in AoE thanks to lots of lockdowns in a hold-happy blapper, other than that it really is not as common, as you say.
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Quote:
One potential problem with the build I just noticed is that it relies on Enzymes. My guess is that the devs won't touch those any time soon, but I wouldn't bet my life on them not correcting the buff bug with those, now that the technology to do it exists. Officially, that is still a bug. If you drop those to Cytos, AoE defense drops perilously to 45% defense. That's why my build uses a Cyto in CJ, by the way.|
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
On a side note, I noticed something in the build that bugged me, and made a change to CAK. The difference between 390% Regen at 140ish +MaxHP and 400% is only ~1 HP/s, moderate loss for the change I saw that puts another 5% Global Rech into the build. A change that, if my estimations are right, puts the build into SK > CS > SK > CAK Chain, puts Conserve Power just under 180 seconds (so 90 up, 90 down) and, tossing Conserve on every 90/s, the build (estimating 20 end per chain over 6 seconds is a -0.23eps burn, over add three focus chi's to toss it up to -0.35eps) should be fully sustainable. Burn about 32ish end with CP down (didn't really count Aid Self since it kind of washes itself out in it's animation time agianst your EPS gains), but net 90-100 while CP is up, so it will wash out it's end use altogether.
(Just slotted CAK like I had slotted EC, the chunk below just also includes the power moves to put Elude into the build. Which, btw, 95/s Downtime on Elude). |
One more little issue: no interrupt reduction in Aid Self. That first one reduces the chances of interrupting it by a lot. But that is easily solved by shifting the Mako slot from EC to AS. Also, I'd shift regen tissue from PP to health, but that's also a minor point.
If I've done the quickie calculations correctly, your new build generates 175.41 dps. That's pretty good. It beats out the best I can do with just the quickie switch of slotting CAK for 5 crushings and one Mako as I mentioned above (same slotting as yours except Dmg/Rech instead of Dmg/End) is 174.33 with the same chain. A hair lower, but both better than the best I do with EC which is 164.25. EC is still underpowered.
I have to say, though, that if I could convince myself to take the risk on Enzymes (which I would say is probably a 80% chance it isn't touched in the next year) I would have been hard pressed to choose between my current build and this one.
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Quote:
You won't need a travel power with the "perma-elude" build. You basically have unsuppressed SS with sprint+ninja run+quickness+elude. Every one in a while, I will need to toggle on the jetpack to fly up somewhere, but that's not an issue since the temp. recipe drops so often, and they're dirt cheap at WW's. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I've probably stared at this build longer than I've though about all other builds for all other characters in seven years combined. Its really easy to get trapped in Mids and never get around to building and playing, so just decided to build it. And on the subject of Elude vs soft-cap, another decision I agonized over was Super Jump or Elude. Not a near-perma Elude of course, but a panic button Elude. I decided I wanted the travel, but I was biting my lip on that one also. Murdok's build now has me questioning the decision also. I wouldn't want to live within Elude's non-perma restrictions myself, but the more I think about the advantages of Elude, the more I think it would be nice to have around. I guess I could live with Ninja run and jump pack temp powers.
|
The other night, I ran an ITF (kill most--shard run) with a PuG and one member from my SG. When we got to the final mission, 6 of our team went to the left, while my buddy on his Emp/Arch defender and I one went to the right clearing mobs. The leftside group beat us to Romi by about 20 seconds. A soft-capped elec/shield might be able to have done something similar, but I know my soft-capped spines/sr could not have killed that many as quickly as I am able to with my perma-elude build. I'm just saying, the main reason I run the perma-eluder is that it definitely has that super-powered feel, if you know what I mean.
...And the math guys freaked out.
Here's my build, this should probably clear things up a bit:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Mutation Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Spines
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Presence
Power Pool: Medicine
Ancillary Pool: Leviathan Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Lunge -- (A)(11)(11)(13)(13)
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- (A)(3)(3)(5)(5)
Level 2: Focused Senses -- (A)(7)(7)(9)(9)
Level 4: Agile -- (A)
Level 6: Build Up -- (A)(23)(25)(25)(27)
Level 8: Impale -- (A)(17)(19)(21)(21)
Level 10: Practiced Brawler -- (A)
Level 12: Hasten -- (A)(15)(15)
Level 14: Maneuvers -- (A)(17)(46)
Level 16: Dodge -- (A)
Level 18: Confront -- (A)(19)(33)(34)(34)(34)
Level 20: Provoke -- (A)(23)(37)(40)(43)(43)
Level 22: Quickness -- (A)
Level 24: Stimulant -- (A)
Level 26: Ripper -- (A)(27)(29)(29)(31)(50)
Level 28: Aid Self -- (A)(31)(31)(33)(33)(36)
Level 30: Lucky -- (A)
Level 32: Throw Spines -- (A)(36)(36)(37)(37)(50)
Level 35: Evasion -- (A)
Level 38: Elude -- (A)(39)(39)(39)(40)(40)
Level 41: Spirit Shark -- (A)(42)(42)(42)(43)
Level 44: Water Spout -- (A)(45)(45)(45)(46)(46)
Level 47: Spirit Shark Jaws -- (A)(48)(48)(48)(50)
Level 49: Hibernate -- (A)
Level 50: Spiritual Radial Boost
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- (A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Sprint -- (A)
Level 2: Rest -- (A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- (A)
Level 2: Health -- (A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- (A)
Level 2: Stamina -- (A)
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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|6170E5AA|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Turn on Geas in Mid's and you will see that Elude's recharge is at 200 seconds, the shortest amount of time that it can be even at the recharge cap. Without Geas, it's down for roughly 211 seconds, hibernate lasts 30 seconds, do the math
I would go back and address the other comments but honestly, I just don't care and I could probably never convince any of you beyond your current opinions. So I'll just reiterate my previous sentiments, soft-cap /sr is fun, but "perma-elude" /sr is more fun. I have both and use both for different circumstances.