Energy Transfer
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2010-09-04 10:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Both Katana and BS have a narrow cone, a wide cone, and a PBAoE in their set.
EM does not.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Stalkers' supposed team issues regarding Assassin's Strike has little to do with the animation time and more to do with the delusion that only AoE matters.|
Originally Posted by RabidBrian
Thats a horrid comparison. Your stalker, which btw there are multiple threads discussing the lack of a role for stalkers on teams (not waiting for them to AS is a big one,)
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| has hide, is not automatically expected to take aggro, and therefor is not expected to start every fight off. When your stalker jumps into the mob, the rest of the team doesnt see it as their time to start fighting, they wait for the tank/brute. Right when a brute or tank jumps into a mob, the attacks start flying. Its not uncommon for squishys to attack through the tank/brute, meaning they will attack the same target. Enter in the corpse shooting. |
Get real.
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| And also nearly two times longer huh? So when did 3 seconds become two times longer than 3.3 seconds? There are only two versions (not counting KM) that have assassins strikes cast times longer than TF, the blade primaries, which are 3.67. All the rest activate faster than TF. And with ET activating in 2.67 seconds, that makes the fastest AS activating 1/6 times slower, a far cry from half. The slowest activate a second slower, still not near half. |
Yeah, it may not be 2x longer, but it's *nearly* 2x longer...[EDIT] And I was referring to Energy Transfer, not Total Focus. EM isn't the only set with 'Total Focus' animation anyway.
tech and rei, i know that. i was more leaning on the ranged attack. thats why i listed that first. no harm no foul.
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im sorry, but even his thinking can be used on bosses. hell, pick a lt and use et or tf first. just stop trying to be the one man army on a team. i have never had an issue with either power as i use them strategically.
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Originally Posted by RabidBrian
Im more or less going off the thought process of how many missions involve EBs and AVs compared to not? Cus he says to "ignore the fact you have them" until you get to an EB or AV. Think of a story arc, where in a series of missions you may fight an eb/av in maybe two missions. And in those missions it will be one fight out of the whole mission. Thats after youve done four plus missions without EBs or AVs to get there.
Think about papers, where you never fight EBs and AVs. Think about TFs, the EB/AV central, where you still fight a majority of the time not against an EB/AV. |
The problem with EM is that it was balanced around the glorious power that was ET. Then they nerfed ET, and the overall weakness of the set became ridiculously apparent.
Now you have a set that has only one strength, single target damage. And that would be fine, except for two problems. One, there are other sets that have similar single target capabilities, and most, if not all, deliver that damage better in team environments. Two, these same sets that are on par with EM for single target capabilities, are far, far better than EM in terms of aoe capabilities. That is why EM is a badly underperforming set, and that is why the vast majority of knowledgeable players dislike the set and call for reforms.
My biggest problem with the situation was why EM was nerfed. The dev responsible flat out posted in the discussion thread that a big reason for nerfing it was because in thread after thread, he saw players mocking other players for taking any other set except for EM. I recall this very clearly because it shocked me to think that a dev did not realize these thread reactions were only due to the fact EM was the only viable melee set for PVP, not because the set was a top performing PVE powerset. In PVE, even with the old ET, EM was subpar due to it's feeble aoe capabilities. Then to add insult to injury, they changed pvp (same dev responsible, same HORRIBLE results) to remove the advantages EM had in PVP in the first place.
As far as fixing EM and making it a more competitive powerset, the devs could go one of two routes. If they want to have EM be the best single target type set, thats fine, but then it needs to be heads and shoulders above the competition, when the competition is already heads and shoulders above EM in terms of aoe ability. Simply returning ET to its former state would accomplish this, and EM would still be supbar in PVE because aoe ability is almost always more valuable in PVE due to the fact you are almost always fighting multiple enemies, and the value of aoe only grows with teaming. Or they could buff other powers to improve its single target output, preferable the faster hitting attacks.
The other option is to boost EM's aoe capabilities. I would suggest some of the following. Make stun a more useful power by making it an aoe stun, maybe even add some damage. Or justify ET and TF's horribly slow animations and make them small cones or aoe's so that at least some of the targets they hit on teams are not dead before they land.
It's a shame such a nice looking, and formerly popular powerset, is left in such a state of disarray where only a few players are left that still enjoy it, especially when it would not take much to restore the powerset to more competitive levels and satisfy a lot of disgruntled customers concerns.
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I didn't mean to imply forget taking the powers. I meant don't bother to use them unless you are up against hard targets while you are in large groups. |
Originally Posted by RabidBrian
That would be like telling an SS player to forget about rage and FS, or a stoner to forget about fault and SM. Or An elec and telling them to forget about LS or TS. Without ET and TF, EM is leagues worse than the other sets. So no, any time the answer is forgetting those two powers, its unacceptable to me.
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Rage helps all the time (-10 seconds). Footstomp is an aoe and you will hardly ever run into overkill issues with that power. Fault, well that is a great control power if you can fit it, and SM? Stone Mallet? Unless you mean Seismic Smash. In that case, due to the fast animation time you also hardly ever run into overkill. All those powers can be usefull just about all the time. Same with Lightning Rod and Thunder Strike. Even with the long animation on TS, it is an aoe so even if your intended target is downed before your animation is finished, you can still end up hitting other mobs. Not really any valid comparisons on any of the powers you picked.
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And how do you know that the NPC is not being targeted by team mates? As a brute or tanker for some folks, you are their target and whatever you are targeting, they are targeting. On my EM, I run in hit WH, then mop up with gloom, and the tier 1-3 attacks. I have run into instances when I found the boss before I ran into the spawn. I then jumpped into the spawn and fired off ET. By the time ET animatied the bosses health bar was so low I would have done just as much damage to the boss and 0 damage to myself if I had just used Bone Smasher instead. Granted this was even level stuff or +1 so the bosses were a bit sqhishie cmpared to +2 and up. But after a while of dealing with this I changed my tactics to only really use ET and TF on hard targets. Since then I have felt much more productive on teams. |
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
and again, all you are reading is what you want to read. even the part you bolded says until you get to an EB or AV. i do not see where it says to totaly ignore them. in fact you can pick a npc that is not being targeted by team mates and use them. again, reading comprehension ftw.
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Remeber when you first got GFS or KO blow or Seismic Smash? And then you go to use that attack and BOOOM that little minion goes from full health to nothing in one shot. Then the anticipation builds up to the next time it is up and then WIFFFFF. Ok it happens.... then the next time it is up.... WIFFFF... Gah what a let down. Ok it is up again. WIFFFF... That is what TF and ET feel like on large teams all the time.
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Dead by the time you get to it? Not normally. Dead in the following 3.3 seconds after I get to it? If not a boss, probably. In the 2.67 seconds after I get there? Maybe, but I end up doing tons of damage when only a medium amount is needed.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
You've got to be an idiot if you expect me to believe every possible target for your Tanker or Brute is instantly dead by the time you get to it. So spawns are dying in less than 3 seconds?!
Get real. |
The whole spawn does not have to die in 3 seconds, just your target in order to screw things up for you.
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On top of that, Martial Arts (now) does more sustained single target damage* and, were EM ported to Scrappers with the same reduced criticals that Stalker received, MA would also have better AoE than Energy Melee.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
So, in fact, the only other set that is on 'par' with Energy Melee is Martial arts...and what a surprise, that's the other set that gets complained about a lot.
So...what was that counter arguement again? |
* - assuming a critical rate of 5%; without criticals EM does a smidge more but MA only exists on ATs that get criticals. math here
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Funny, I remember there being attacks that go off in 1.3, 0.8 and 1.5 sec that you can be using on things that aren't bosses and fall really fast...that's what the smaller attacks are for, afterall. I'm not going to Greater Fire Sword a minion that would have gone down with a Creamate...|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Dead by the time you get to it? Not normally. Dead in the following 3.3 seconds after I get to it? If not a boss, probably. In the 2.67 seconds after I get there? Maybe, but I end up doing tons of damage when only a medium amount is needed.
The whole spawn does not have to die in 3 seconds, just your target in order to screw things up for you. |
Your issue is user-side.
Have you even bothered to read any of my other posts? For example the one directly above the one you quoted.
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Dead by the time you get to it? Not normally. Dead in the following 3.3 seconds after I get to it? If not a boss, probably. In the 2.67 seconds after I get there? Maybe, but I end up doing tons of damage when only a medium amount is needed. The whole spawn does not have to die in 3 seconds, just your target in order to screw things up for you. |
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| Your issue is user-side. |
As a Tanker on a team, your job isn't to do damage. Granted, you want to be able to if you need to, but if the team is wiping the floor with your foes so fast that you can't do any damage, then there's nothing wrong. If you want to be doing more damage, team with people who do less damage and the foes will be standing longer.
The point being made is that some powers in all sets take a while to activate. If you're using these long activation powers against foes that the team is defeating faster than they activate, then you're using heavy hitters against weak foes. That's not the game's problem.
Either way, this is drifting off topic again...
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I have. But I still fail to see the issue you're complaining about as a severe balance issue. Communication would go a long way in helping your specific issue (tell those squishies to not target through you, for one).|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Have you even bothered to read any of my other posts? For example the one directly above the one you quoted.
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The particularly glaring issue I see is with the new revamped MA. I haven't played my MA/Shield yet or respected him into Cobra, but from what I can see (Cobra strike with the same duration stun, shorter recharge and higher damage but with only a 75% stun chance) I figure MA will probably beat out EM in stuns/mitigation thanks to faster/more reliable Dragon Tail in combo with the great stuns.
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
... On my EM, I run in hit WH, then mop up with gloom, and the tier 1-3 attacks….. after a while of dealing with this (overkill with ET and TF) I changed my tactics to only really use ET and TF on hard targets. Since then I have felt much more productive on teams....
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
You've got to be an idiot if you expect me to believe every possible target for your Tanker or Brute is instantly dead by the time you get to it. So spawns are dying in less than 3 seconds?!
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Dead by the time you get to it? Not normally. Dead in the following 3.3 seconds after I get to it? If not a boss, probably. In the 2.67 seconds after I get there? Maybe, but I end up doing tons of damage when only a medium amount is needed.
The whole spawn does not have to die in 3 seconds, just your target in order to screw things up for you. |
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Funny, I remember there being attacks that go off in 1.3, 0.8 and 1.5 sec that you can be using on things that aren't bosses and fall really fast...that's what the smaller attacks are for, afterall. I'm not going to Greater Fire Sword a minion that would have gone down with a Creamate...
Your issue is user-side. |
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I have. But I still fail to see the issue you're complaining about as a severe balance issue. Communication would go a long way in helping your specific issue (tell those squishies to not target through you, for one).
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I have already posted what I do as a work around. I use just the low damage attacks until there is a hard target. This however leaves 2 attacks unused for the most part. TF I have skipped due to the DPA being higher on all my other attacks accept Barrage; and ET I don't bother with except for +2 bosses or higher.
And I never stated that it is a severe balance issue. All I am asking for is a change in the animation to ET to still keep it 2.67 seconds, but have the damage applied at the begining of the attack instead of the end.
If you are reading like you claim to be, you really need to work on your comprehension skills.
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Don't you realise, nobody in the world likes knockback!?|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I have to say, I rather like Energy Melee, but Energy Transfer seems to me to be missing something. My original suggestion, that it could use a Knockback effect, was met with the expected resistance (no one seems to like knockback but me), but I have had some other thoughts.
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(Flashbacks to Kinetic Melee beta, forgive me)
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
My suggestion that at least the option of knockback be added stands. I mean, the animation thrusts out both arms like you're pushing, but the enemy doesn't go anywhere. Make it knockdown, with the option of making it knockback by slotting appropriately.
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That said, if you like the idea of your version of ET to knock people over sometimes, there's a knockdown proc available to the set Stupefy, which is a 20% for knockback. Not enough to get persistantly annoying, but enough to give you that 'Boom, POW' feeling you might be looking for.
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
And I never stated that it is a severe balance issue. All I am asking for is a change in the animation to ET to still keep it 2.67 seconds, but have the damage applied at the begining of the attack instead of the end.
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Yeah, and all I said was thats unacceptable to me. Those two attacks are what makes Energy melee, energy melee. They shouldnt be that situational. The rest of the set is white bread, with some mold on WH. Nothing special outside of ET and TF.|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
I didn't mean to imply forget taking the powers. I meant don't bother to use them unless you are up against hard targets while you are in large groups.
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| Rage helps all the time (-10 seconds). Footstomp is an aoe and you will hardly ever run into overkill issues with that power. Fault, well that is a great control power if you can fit it, and SM? Stone Mallet? Unless you mean Seismic Smash. In that case, due to the fast animation time you also hardly ever run into overkill. All those powers can be usefull just about all the time. Same with Lightning Rod and Thunder Strike. Even with the long animation on TS, it is an aoe so even if your intended target is downed before your animation is finished, you can still end up hitting other mobs. Not really any valid comparisons on any of the powers you picked. |
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I read your post in the voice of Patrick Warburton... It was beautiful.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
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On the note of EM, I never knew it's former glory, but I do like the present animation for ET, though it could stand to be sped up, I haven't gotten total focus on an EM toon, but I do have it on my /energy blaster, and it feels even worse in animation time. (Not entirely helped by blasters having lower melee damage mods, but it's a bit understandable)
But in the end, I'm fairly in different since as leo pointed out, a tank's job isn't exactly scrapper damage, and on a team, even if I'm hitting a corpse, punch-voke still kicks in and lets me do my job of taking aggro.
But for those who suggest just opening with ET or TF: Are you NUTS?! That's fine for stalkers, but for a brute or tank, you won't be able to milk all that lovely damage from the attack unless you build up a little fury or land a bruising -res debuff first!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Seriously?|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
If you are reading like you claim to be, you really need to work on your comprehension skills. |
It's all well and good you've made suggestions, I never really argued about the changes themselves...
But you can't argue my reading comprehension is messed up when you're making quotes like that. Quote 2 happened before quote 1, quote 4 was in regard to quote 3 and acknowledged quote 1 as its source.
If you're going to blame my faulty reading comprehension, at least don't cheat.
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It wasn't so much it's 'former glory'...|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
I read your post in the voice of Patrick Warburton... It was beautiful.
On the note of EM, I never knew it's former glory, but I do like the present animation for ET, though it could stand to be sped up, I haven't gotten total focus on an EM toon, but I do have it on my /energy blaster, and it feels even worse in animation time. |
More like 'Formerly not sucking quite as badly as it really does now.'
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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You're assuming their other attacks are recharged. |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I agree, the slow animation is kind of neat. Granted, on teams it can be problematic, but if you're using a big hitter on a foe that the team is killing in less than 2 seconds, your choice of power use is a little suspect.
I just see this power as kind of the centerpiece of the set. I thought a little boost to it might be nifty. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Same argument. If your powers aren't recharged, it's still a waste to use your big hitter on a foe that's about to fall. Wait that extra second and use a smaller hitter, unless your team has done what they're supposed to be doing, and defeated him for you.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
You're assuming their other attacks are recharged.
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Neither please.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
...knockback...
...what about making it an AOE? |
Energy Melee should be the king of single target damage, since that's all it really has. Buffing Whirling Hands? Meh. It's one AoE attack in a set of ST attacks. And like Mac said, adding AoE to Energy Transfer won't fix a whole lot. Actually, it might be detrimental, as they'd cleave Energy Transfer's damage to make it splash.
I agree. Energy Melee should be the king of single target damage, currently it is not.
Although I want to say that, contrary to what someone claimed earlier in this thread, I do not believe that ET was nerfed because of complaints about LoL-PvP. I believe that ET was nerfed because it was too powerful to be transferred to Scrappers in its old form. That's why the animation time was changed, because it's the one thing that can't be affected by IOs.
I doubt that Castle will go back and fix Energy Melee any time soon. But then again I never thought he'd ever buff Invulnerability, I was wrong about that. Of course, look how long it took to happen.
Katana, see above.
Spines has a crapton of AoE, and ranged AoE. Quills, the spine explosion, Impaler. And Ripper, which is a cone.
Claws has a PbAoE, Eviscerate which is a high power cone, Focus which is high power and ranged, and Shockwave, which is a ranged cone.
Dark has a cone, a PBAoE mass stacking +hit and +damage attack, a self heal...etc.
Elec has a cone, Thunderstrike AoE and Lightning Rod, which is its own mini-nuke.
Kin has a ranged cone, PbAoE and a high damaged range attack.
Fire has a ranged cone and a high power PbAoE
DB has a PbAoE and both it's tier 8 and tier 9 are cones.
SS has Footstomp and Hurl, both of which are known for their lethality.
Axe and Mace both have a PbAoE, 'pass through' attack and a tier 9 cone.
Ice Melee has a cone and what is actually a footstomp clone but it has sleep instead of KB, and a KB patch and a melee hold, because Ice likes to be special like that.
Stone has Hurl boulder and Tremor.
So, in fact, the only other set that is on 'par' with Energy Melee is Martial arts...and what a surprise, that's the other set that gets complained about a lot.
So...what was that counter arguement again?