Masterminds on PUGs, and Other Comedies
By
BenRGamer,
Posted on: 2010-08-31 02:05 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
I would pay good infamy to watch a group of blueside only players running their first Mayhem Mission.
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That was me! Very fun indeed
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I know from the RWZ arc that they can be a royal PITA, depending on what AT I'm on. No more or less than Malta, or Knives, off the top of my head. I just adjust my tactics accordingly. SOMETIMES that means lowering my difficulty, but I only have one half-billion inf toon, some are still just on SOs.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Do those who play Hero 90% of the time think Longbow is a harder group to deal with at high level?
I am very used to LBs and I've seen plenty Brutes who jump in and die so quickly (those Sonic Grenade) or my squishy toons got Bean Bagged for like 30s. lol |
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To be fair, the redside ATs (in general) seem better at soloing than blueside ATs (thinking particularly of the traditional blueside "squishies" - there is a reason they got that name). So this is in product of what the classes are capable of (especially at SO level slotting), and not necessarily player skill. A blaster might run off and solo ONE spawn, but it's pretty rare to see him/her do it non-stop (I don't think I ever have). There's also the blueside vs. redside player population discrepancy: way more players blueside = way more PuGs blueside = way more playing to the lowest common denominator: stay safe, follow the tank. 99% of PuGs will be successful blueside with that tactic (made up percentage |
Originally Posted by Emberly
The great thing about villains and their players is that no matter what it's very easy
 My teams start at +1/x8 and I raise the diff until people start dying a bit. If we get a death per mission at +2/x8, that's good enough for me. If we are a bunch of MMs, brutes and corruptors and we jack it up to +4/x8, I bemoan the lack of higher difficulty and accept my sad lot in life. It seems that redside, death means you bit off a little more than you could chew and you learn from it. Blueside, death means someone wasn't following the tank and it's time to piss and moan about it  One of the best things about villain teams is that players often tend to play as a soloist with some (unreliable) support from teammates. Keeps things interesting, speeds up XP gain, and maintains some social interaction. If a character dies often, s/he learns to stick close to someone else, and they quickly become a stronger fighting element. Compared to the all-too-common srs bsns blueside teams, it's a lot of fun. Nobody really wants to follow the tank |
). I don't think I know of another tactic that is nearly so consistently successful (blueside). Granted, who/what tanks isn't always a tanker - even blueside - but the tactic remains. "Let the person capable of handling the spawn's alpha engage first."I do look forward to discovering new tactics with my red/gold/blue side teammates though.
I don't know. It's been my experience that Red and Blue teams wipe in equally preposterous situations. There are plenty of good teams on both sides too.
At the same time I also know I don't currently have ANY Dominator, Controller, Defender, or Corruptor who can leap headfirst into a x8+4 spawn and expect to survive longer than a few seconds without teammate support. In fact it's typical for me to die in about 2 hits from a boss on the hardest difficulties. I mean, maybe I could do Council for twenty seconds if they didn't mezz me. But Longbow? Carnies? Malta? Knives of Artemis? It just wouldn't happen without massive IOing, and even then probably still wouldn't happen. Soloing +4 Carnies on an Ice/Thermal Controller? Yeah... no.
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Other than /elec elec/ I don't know anyone foolish enough to dive into +4 carnies.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I don't know. It's been my experience that Red and Blue teams wipe in equally preposterous situations. There are plenty of good teams on both sides too.
At the same time I also know I don't currently have ANY Dominator, Controller, Defender, or Corruptor who can leap headfirst into a x8+4 spawn and expect to survive longer than a few seconds without teammate support. In fact it's typical for me to die in about 2 hits from a boss on the hardest difficulties. I mean, maybe I could do Council for twenty seconds if they didn't mezz me. But Longbow? Carnies? Malta? Knives of Artemis? It just wouldn't happen without massive IOing, and even then probably still wouldn't happen. Soloing +4 Carnies on an Ice/Thermal Controller? Yeah... no. |
My only rough spot with blueside MMs so far has been cave missions. It can be a bit of a chore to try to wade through all those pets to get anything done and it's all too easy to find yourself staring at the backside of a giant demon for most of the mission.
Strategically, the math always favors a tightly packed group of opponents subjected to a deluge of AOEs. Whatever it takes to make that happen will be more efficient than a mad scramble. Players can play however they want to, redside or blueside, but that won't change the math. Teams without AOE damage just don't have the option of efficiency, so they can go with the scramble without much loss, if any.
What's probably most important is that the team has a clear idea of how things are going to happen. If Blasters are going to be left to their own aggro because "Brutes aren't Tankers!", then they need to know that. If Dominators are supposed to wait for a herd or corner pull before firing off their AOE hold, then they need to know that. Most will figure it out after the first couple fights, but you might need to send a tell if things are getting out of hand.
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Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
I would pay good infamy to watch a group of blueside only players running their first Mayhem Mission.
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Do blue side only players even exist? I could not imagine playing only the half part of a game I love so much.
Originally Posted by Megajoule
We're being invaded. Again. This time, instead of aliens, zombies, or eyeballs with teeth, it's the marching band.
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They do indeed. I teamed with friends from my SG in the Isles (they only play the Blue-side ATs) on my Thugs/Poison MM (built as a Tankermind). I told the Tanker repeatedly that I didn't need him to tank so I just went ahead and steam-rolled the rest of the mission by myself as he and the Blaster faceplanted against the Wailers.|
Originally Posted by Razia
Do blue side only players even exist? I could not imagine playing only the half part of a game I love so much.
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Might I add that the Tanker was going to the Isles to "show them how it's done".
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My preferred approach is clear to the bank, everyone in and deal with whatever ambushes and then someone goes outside with Fly and buzzes around to annoy all the Flying "death" squads and comes back in.|
Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
Some redside teams rush the bank intentionally, just to see how many Longbow they can AoE to death in the resultant chaos at the door.
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Then lots of flying bags of XP show up and die horribly
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Yeah, getting the Eagle Death Squad is awesome if you're prepared for it. Doubly so if you have a Traps anything on the team.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
My preferred approach is clear to the bank, everyone in and deal with whatever ambushes and then someone goes outside with Fly and buzzes around to annoy all the Flying "death" squads and comes back in.
Then lots of flying bags of XP show up and die horribly |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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I have always maintained that Longbow are the baddest bunch of enemies in the game, causing Red-side to be harder as you get your Longbow love starting in Mercy.|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
This does make me want to check out some heroside pugs to see "I'm invincible" tanks meet up with stacked disruption fields and a liquefy, among all the other goodies Longbow offers.
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I'm also curious to see how the Heroes are handling the increased debuffs and aoe-mania that is Longbow.
Longbow is just one of the reasons that the LRSF is harder btw.
Noght
Noght 50 Scrapper Broadsword/Invulnerability
Fire Umbra 50 Brute Dark Melee/Fire Aura
Impulse Cry 50 Blaster Sonic/Energy
Internist 50 Mastermind Poison/Thugs
Ice Omega 50 Corrupter Ice/Radiation
Prickly Heat 50 Dominator Plant/Fire
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I'd go the other way, myself. On everything but my melee characters, I consider Longbow to be little more than slightly beefed-up Hellions with defense debuffs, apart from the bosses. (Especially pre-40.) Debuffs and controls can pretty easily neuter them compared to a lot of groups--they tend to spawn in nice little clumps, they don't like to scatter, they don't have much in the way of exotic damage, and they don't have much mez or debuff resistance. I think I have a single character where I'd choose to fight Arachnos over Longbow, given the choice.
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Originally Posted by Noght
I have always maintained that Longbow are the baddest bunch of enemies in the game, causing Red-side to be harder as you get your Longbow love starting in Mercy.
I'm also curious to see how the Heroes are handling the increased debuffs and aoe-mania that is Longbow. |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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I agree with you here, but I'll take it a step further. Before GR, I don't think LB were ever prevalent enemies heroes had to fight against, if they fought against them at all.|
Originally Posted by Noght
I have always maintained that Longbow are the baddest bunch of enemies in the game, causing Red-side to be harder as you get your Longbow love starting in Mercy.
I'm also curious to see how the Heroes are handling the increased debuffs and aoe-mania that is Longbow. |
Villains had to go up against LB and Arachnos from the get go. If you chose Burke over Kalinda, Arachnos is in your very first mission.
Honestly it's a toss-up for me, which group is harder. My crab spider doesn't really flinch when he sees a pack of 0/8 LB with a bunch of Nullifiers. However, I'm 110% alert when facing my own (Arachnos). I hate Tarantula Mistresses and their massive -def debuff that always always hits me
Once I have that psy debuff on, I can forget about my near capped defenses.
To be fair, level 1-10 Longbow and Arachnos are more-or-less Hellions with different skins. I mean, the minions are even weaker, lacking the varied melee weapons your average thug packs. Maybe the lieuts are a mite tougher. Arachnos start getting tough in the teens with end-draining Mu and hold resistance, whereas Longbow only really take off at higher levels with Spec-Ops and sonic grenades.
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Granted, but my point was that villains are exposed to both them for day 1. Heroes are only exposed to Arachnos.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Ohm
To be fair, level 1-10 Longbow and Arachnos are more-or-less Hellions with different skins. I mean, the minions are even weaker, lacking the varied melee weapons your average thug packs. Maybe the lieuts are a mite tougher. Arachnos start getting tough in the teens with end-draining Mu and hold resistance, whereas Longbow only really take off at higher levels with Spec-Ops and sonic grenades.
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Yeah, and even then, they can largely avoid Arachnos if they don't do Faultline and just don't pick them on newspaper missions.
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Originally Posted by Red Pirate Boggarts
Granted, but my point was that villains are exposed to both them for day 1. Heroes are only exposed to Arachnos.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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Ick Wailers, another of the lovely treasures Villains get to enjoy...
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Originally Posted by Snowzone
They do indeed. I teamed with friends from my SG in the Isles (they only play the Blue-side ATs) on my Thugs/Poison MM (built as a Tankermind). I told the Tanker repeatedly that I didn't need him to tank so I just went ahead and steam-rolled the rest of the mission by myself as he and the Blaster faceplanted against the Wailers.
Might I add that the Tanker was going to the Isles to "show them how it's done". |
So has anyone here seen a hero die because they followed the Stalker to the mobs?
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I've had heroes follow my cloaked bane while I was looking ahead of the group in some door missions. I'm talking about non cloaked heroes, and not the usual stealth + SS guys that usually like to scout like my bane.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
So has anyone here seen a hero die because they followed the Stalker to the mobs?
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That would cover it then. |
Originally Posted by Red Pirate Boggarts
I've had heroes follow my cloaked bane while I was looking ahead of the group in some door missions. I'm talking about non cloaked heroes, and not the usual stealth + SS guys that usually like to scout like my bane.
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Thank you for the smile.
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Stealth + SS is extremely common blueside. I can't recall a team I've been on in the past several months that didn't have someone using Stealth & SS. So it's kind of surprising that anyone would get caught out following a Stalker at this point.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
So has anyone here seen a hero die because they followed the Stalker to the mobs?
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I was a blueside only player for a very long time, and in my experience, a good Tank herds primarily when a mob is spread over a large area (and they don't switch to melee) and after they are saturated enough, they get nuked. For a team to just breeze in on such a mob, hero or villain, it just slow things down. |
Originally Posted by Boerewors
Ahahahahh! Stop Stop! It hurts so much to laugh like this!
I had a heated discussion with a tank in a Praetorian team about herding. I kept insisting that the days of herding are over, all hail the redside steamroller! The tank kept disagreeing with me, stating that she herds to keep squishies like me alive. I kept trying to tell her that I am not a squishy, I am a DOMINATOR! And proceeded to hit my "I win" button and locked down an entire spawn. ;-P I am just so loving the whole change of perspective. I never played blueside because I was just so sick of the herd, nuke, next, yawn game play. Steamroller chaos is the best thing since canned Enriche! Bring it on! |
However, like you, I get cold feet when a team becomes TOO dependent on the Tank to keep the team alive and moving. Sadly that is the case when a team lacks support, or one or more of players doesn't know how to play their AT. The tank does make things safer, but a good hero AT only team won't have to worry about the alpha and can steamroll just as well as villain AT teams.
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Plus there is illiusion controllers, so I'd be surprised at people being caught out by stalker stealth.
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Originally Posted by streetlight
Stealth + SS is extremely common blueside. I can't recall a team I've been on in the past several months that didn't have someone using Stealth & SS. So it's kind of surprising that anyone would get caught out following a Stalker at this point.
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I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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Amen! |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
As a well played MM heroside, I know exactly which role I fill: All of them.
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Originally Posted by DogTags
I mentioned Heel and Goto are your most important tools. The first thing I see in response "I never use those" /floored
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Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
Other than /elec elec/ I don't know anyone foolish enough to dive into +4 carnies.
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Heck, I'll dive into the Snake Temple at full of lv54 Cobra bosses (+4/x8) if you don't go in first.
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Originally Posted by Razia
Do blue side only players even exist? I could not imagine playing only the half part of a game I love so much.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I love mayhem missions. Running battles against armies of cops; ambushes coming at you from all sides (good practice for GR); widespread property destruction - that's what I call being a supervillain.
Funny thing is I usually hate timed missions in games - it always strikes me as an artificial way of ramping up the difficulty, but I make an exception for mayhems and always try to do the sides. It's even more fun when the Longbow follow you into one of the side missions.
One thing I do wonder, now that all ATs are available on both sides... which playstyle will prove dominant in the long run? Blueside's "Tank must go first and we need a healer", or Redside's "Everyone is DPS. Last one to grab some aggro isn't trying hard enough" ?