Change to Alignment Merit earning/spending


Biospark

 

Posted

The existing system limits the acquisition of Alignment Merits to 1/20 hours for conversion(50 Merits plus 20 million inf) and 1/40 hours for earning via Morality Mission. For the purposes of discussion, I will call that 3 AMs/2 days, or 1.5 AMs/day. This has the distinct effect of encouraging daily play on a specific character(s), since AMs are non-transferable(as are Merits).

It is the daily part which bugs me. It seems obvious that the goal is to limit how often one can purchase rewards with AMs, especially purple and pvp recipes, the most expensive and rare items. That is fine as a concept. However, wouldn't it make more sense to put a timer on the purchases themselves, and not the earning? As of now, this is how often things can be bought, in terms of days played one one character, either consecutive or non-consecutive:

pvp recipe: 1/20 days
purple recipe: 1/14 days
respec recipe: 1/7 days

Example 1: Player A is able to play for 2 hours each day, or 14 hours each week. This enables him to run his Tip Missions every day on his main, his Alignment Mission every other day, and generate 50 Merits every day for conversion. He will acquire 1.5 AMs/day and 10.5 AMs/week. He can acquire the rewards in the actual number of days above. It will take him 20 real days to earn a pvp recipe.

Example 2: Player B is not able to play during the week. He is able to play for 7 hours each on Saturday and Sunday, or 14 hours each week. This enables him to run 1 full set of Tip Missions plus the Alignment Mission for his main, earning 1 AM. He is able to convert 100 Merits plus 40 million inf for 2 more AMs. He will acquire 3 AMs over those 2 days and 3 AMs/week. It will take him 10 weeks, or 70 real days, to earn a pvp recipe.


Compare that to all other rewards in the game, including xp, inf, recipe/salvage drops, and Merits. For all of those things Player A and Player B could have the same result after their 14 hours of play. With AMs it is impossible. I do not know if it was intentional, but for the first time(?) there is a game system which actively promotes a specific play schedule at the expense of others. Yes, Task Forces do have timers on their rewards as well, but one can always do a different TF or a story arc, and always be producing Merits.

My suggestion: add a timer to the purchase of each item, like the one which is on "Convert Merits" right now. If they do not want a player producing a pvp recipe(on a single character) faster than 1/20 days, set that timer at 20 days. Allow a character to run as many Tip and Alignment Missions as they would like within their existing alignment to earn AMs. This would maintain current time limits on side-switching, while allowing "burst" players like player B above to earn AMs as much as they can during their playtime.


 

Posted

So this system has been out less than 2 weeks on live and suggesting it be changed? Can't the devs collect a little more data?

I also don't understand why player A and B have to be the same. The system as I see it now keeps the power gamers in check and doesn't spread the distribution curve on earning merits as much. If player B just plays the game, he could earn a PvP recipe recipe in 5 minutes by chance just going to a PvP zone, fighting other players. Or Player B could put a bid and wait, which could be bought in <70 days. Or better yet, Player B sounds like a casual player and doesn't care one bit about PvP recipes.


 

Posted

If I had been in beta I would have suggested this then. What meaningful data would be collected?

It does not keep power gamers in check at all, it simply means that every 20 days they will acquire x pvp recipes, where x is the number of characters they have time to grind daily. It does incentivize daily play for those power gamers, so I guess one could argue that it keeps weekend power gamers in check, but not daily ones.

I don't see why you would call player B casual and not player A, they play the same number of hours each week. Players A and B should receive the same reward because they are playing the game for the same length of time. That should be obvious.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuuk View Post
If I had been in beta I would have suggested this then. What meaningful data would be collected?
Maybe like how much merits are being collected and spent? How many recipes purchased by A merits vs. the market? How many players actually use the system? Etc. Why don't you just let the system play out for a bit? The devs have made changes to the merit system for arcs/TFs before based on datamining, you would almost expect them to datamine the new data here. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Quote:
It does not keep power gamers in check at all, it simply means that every 20 days they will acquire x pvp recipes, where x is the number of characters they have time to grind daily. It does incentivize daily play for those power gamers, so I guess one could argue that it keeps weekend power gamers in check, but not daily ones.

I don't see why you would call player B casual and not player A, they play the same number of hours each week. Players A and B should receive the same reward because they are playing the game for the same length of time. That should be obvious.
I see casual as a few times, like weekends only. You obviously have some other definition.

It keeps them in check by limiting how fast they can produce these recipes. A player could simply play the other content of the game to get what they need - some of the "pvp farms" that exist or players farming for purples all day.

EDIT -

I forgot to add that I view the system as a "light at the end of the tunnel" system so that players can obtain what they want. They can play normal content or content for A merits. This way if there is not a recipe for sale they want or people want >2 bill for them, they have the means to get exactly what they want on their own time. If they want it badly, they can focus more on A merits. If they don't, then they can place bids and wait.

The times used are there to prevent some players obtaining things far faster than a normal player since they can be on far more often or do things that other can't (like various multibox conditions).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuuk View Post
My suggestion: add a timer to the purchase of each item, like the one which is on "Convert Merits" right now. If they do not want a player producing a pvp recipe(on a single character) faster than 1/20 days, set that timer at 20 days. Allow a character to run as many Tip and Alignment Missions as they would like within their existing alignment to earn AMs. This would maintain current time limits on side-switching, while allowing "burst" players like player B above to earn AMs as much as they can during their playtime.
Although I don't completely agree with your point, I do agree that the system encourages you to play EVERY day in order maximize your rewards.

The new Merit system is a very good step in helping casual players and non-farmers to achieve their build goals, so I am hesitant to see it changed very much.

One suggestion that I made during beta was that they should consider putting the 20 hour timer on ONLY the Merits. Thus making it a 1 HVM per day limit regardless how you earned it. I would also like to see the tips option able to be completed that same 20-hour period. I really don't like doing half the missions one day and the second half on the next. Many, Many times I log on with time still left on the timer, so I have to log off and wait till the next session, which could easily be more than 20 hours of "delay" (real life is so unpredictable).
***If it were an issue of how long it takes to switch alignments, then perhaps the timers should be longer for Rogue/Vigilantes, since they cannot earn the special merits, it would still have the desired effect.

If you could get 1 merit per day no matter how you did it, you could plan each session ahead of time; e.g. Today I am running a TF with my SG, and will trade in the merits plus influence for my Merit, or... nothing going on, so run 10 tip missions and get a free merit.


Just an idea


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PennyPA View Post
Maybe like how much merits are being collected and spent? How many recipes purchased by A merits vs. the market? How many players actually use the system? Etc. Why don't you just let the system play out for a bit? The devs have made changes to the merit system for arcs/TFs before based on datamining, you would almost expect them to datamine the new data here. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
Evidence to the contrary of what? You aren't making any counter-claim here, you're just saying "we need data." What is the data going to prove or disprove? My argument is "14 hours should equal 14 hours." What exactly are you arguing?



Quote:
I see casual as a few times, like weekends only. You obviously have some other definition.
So a person who plays 12 hours/day on weekends is more casual than someone who plays 1-2 hours every day? The weekend guy is playing a lot more over the span of a week, month, or year.

Quote:
It keeps them in check by limiting how fast they can produce these recipes.
My suggestion does the exact same thing, they could not get them any faster. They could, however, work towards them on their own schedule, instead of a daily one.

Quote:
The times used are there to prevent some players obtaining things far faster than a normal player since they can be on far more often or do things that other can't (like various multibox conditions).
As I said, if they simply apply a timer to the purchases themselves, as opposed to the earning, it would achieve the same effect, while not promoting a particular play schedule. You have yet to explain why this would be bad, you just keep saying "it's new, let's see some data." You have not explained why my suggestion is wrong or harmful.


 

Posted

Quote:
Allow a character to run as many Tip and Alignment Missions as they would like within their existing alignment to earn AMs
I highly doubt the system can distinguish between "In your existing alignment" and not when it comes to Fame acquired. Tips cease to drop at 5 Fame, regardless of which alignment one is pushing for, so.

I also fail to see the point behind this, because it shifts the "daily play" to a different area - just the cashing in instead occurs on a schedule, instead of the currency inflow. I don't feel that would be good for the game, being able to grind up an obscene amount of alignment merits in the span of a couple days, then just popping on every week or two for the sake of cashing in.

And, well.. the system is still new, and players haven't had much time to tinker around with it and really contemplate it. Proposing the change -now- seems to be a "The system doesn't work in a way that lets -me- maximize rewards, change it so I can even if that doesn't match system intent" kind of post.

As it stands, the system seems intended to be the counterpoint to the Reward Merit system - Alignment Merits can only be earned slowly over time but give big rewards for their cost, while Reward Merits can be gleaned quickly but require many for the big stuff.


Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.

 

Posted

1 in 20 days...so that min/maxing powergamer, has gotten 3 whole PvP recipes in 2 months time without PvPing. That really doesn't sound all that OMGish.

Especially when you consider they have to have paid 400million Influence out in that 20 days and still earned 1000 Merits. Now, doing normal content, say an ITF and a LGTF, and getting just one lucky purple drop (maybe 2) could pay for all that...but they're doing the work for it.

Besides that, most PvP sets really do suck. They may be good in PvP zones for the additional set bonuses, but in PvE (Where most players play)...they're not.

+3% Defense PvP IO is nice *nod*

-Resist Proc PvP IO is nice *nod*

Panacea has some nice set bonuses (imo anyways) to go with that additional 7.5 RCH bonus (which is only 2.5% more than a Doctored Wounds set).

Purple IOs, one isn't limited to using one toon to build those up and can still stick to PvE.

As for the casual gamer...if they want to load their toon with IOs but don't have the time for TFs, it just got easier...11 missions in 2 days gives them a Hero (or Villain) Merit. So in 4 days time, they just got ahold of a LotG: +RCH IO at whatever level they want!

This system just made IOing out toons with the normal IO sets so much easier.

Purple IO sets are not all that. They aren't. I love seeing those "I have 5 purple sets!" builds that crumble so quickly.

I wouldn't call myself the casual player. I wouldn't call my builds the casual build. However, my SG is filled with A LOT of casual players, and casual players don't need uber DPS builds that can elliminate everything solo.

What I find most casual players want, is a toon that survives better than it does on SOs (or generic IOs). And for that, all you need is regular IO sets, to get +Defense, +HP...sure some +RCH is nice. But having many of those uber +RCH bonuses are only needed on /Regen Builds and ILL/ Troller Builds in terms of "make me more survivable".

Now if you're talking about the casual PvPer. I'd have to say, if they're casual PvPers (like me) then they should already be used to losing.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

I mean what the hell were the devs thinking. Making a system that encourages you to use their product on a regular basis. It's like they want to have more people on all the time to make it easier to find groups and stuff. This is an MMO, people don't run around in groups anymore, sheesh.

/endsarcasticrant


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuuk View Post
The existing system limits the acquisition of Alignment Merits to 1/20 hours for conversion(50 Merits plus 20 million inf) and 1/40 hours for earning via Morality Mission....

Example 1: Player A is able to play for 2 hours each day, or 14 hours each week. This enables him to run his Tip Missions every day on his main, his Alignment Mission every other day, and generate 50 Merits every day for conversion. He will acquire 1.5 AMs/day and 10.5 AMs/week. He can acquire the rewards in the actual number of days above. It will take him 20 real days to earn a pvp recipe.

Ok here is what I would like you to do. Sell off all your current merits so you have 0. Then transfer all your goods and money to a toon other than your main. Then play for however long it takes to run 5 tip missions, plus the morality mission every other day plus 50 merits and 20 million inf. I bet the time will average out alot closer to the 7 hours than the 2 hours you predict.

Honestly if someone is that dedicated and they do end up earning that many mertis and that much inf by playing just 2 hours a day then they damn well should be rewarded for their hard work.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuuk View Post
Evidence to the contrary of what? You aren't making any counter-claim here, you're just saying "we need data." What is the data going to prove or disprove? My argument is "14 hours should equal 14 hours." What exactly are you arguing?
Evidence that they don't datamine or "watch what goes on in their game" - clear?
My point is that you want changes on something that was beta tested and has barely been on live for any significant amount of time. Your suggestion is based on limited information. Why not wait and see if the system is WAI by the devs or they start tweaking it now that it is live and can see how the population will really use it (as opposed to focused testers in beta).


Quote:
So a person who plays 12 hours/day on weekends is more casual than someone who plays 1-2 hours every day? The weekend guy is playing a lot more over the span of a week, month, or year.
So we have different definitions...okay.

Quote:
My suggestion does the exact same thing, they could not get them any faster. They could, however, work towards them on their own schedule, instead of a daily one.



As I said, if they simply apply a timer to the purchases themselves, as opposed to the earning, it would achieve the same effect, while not promoting a particular play schedule. You have yet to explain why this would be bad, you just keep saying "it's new, let's see some data." You have not explained why my suggestion is wrong or harmful.
See above - you lack enough information to start saying what would be best. You are "creating a problem to be solved by your suggestion" and there may be no problem to begin with.


 

Posted

Okay, you have no counter-argument. You are not saying my idea or concern is wrong, you are saying that without data(99% of which the players never see), we players should not be making suggestions at all. By the way, at no point did I say the devs do not datamine, I know they do. In this case, I think the basic principle "time played should equal time played," does not need data to support or refute it. This is not true of the current AM system, so I put forth a suggestion to change it.


Hellincarnate: my main does not have a stockpile of merits, I do earn those every day. As for the inf, yes I have some saved, but if I didn't, it would increase my daily playtime by an hour at most to get 20m.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuuk View Post
Okay, you have no counter-argument. You are not saying my idea or concern is wrong, you are saying that without data(99% of which the players never see), we players should not be making suggestions at all. By the way, at no point did I say the devs do not datamine, I know they do. In this case, I think the basic principle "time played should equal time played," does not need data to support or refute it. This is not true of the current AM system, so I put forth a suggestion to change it.
I am saying you are making a poor suggestion based on practically no information. This maybe WAI by the devs. You are the one making up numbers like taking 70 days - is that real or just assuming? I see it as the latter.

Plus who are these fictional Players A and B? How much do they represent of the real population or are you "doing it for the little guy" suggesting?

Anyhow, you made a suggestion. Great. Lots here to read. I like ones that actually are based on real information.


 

Posted

That 70 day figure is mathematically true. If you're not willing to do a little mental work to keep up with what is being said in the thread, maybe you should stop replying to it. For someone so hung up on data you seem to have a poor grasp of the data that I have provided.

You are saying my suggestion is "poor", but have given no reason for why that is. That is a vague descriptor which in this case is meaningless. The difference between the daily player and the non-daily player who play the same amount of hours over time is in fact "real information."


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuuk View Post


Hellincarnate: my main does not have a stockpile of merits, I do earn those every day. As for the inf, yes I have some saved, but if I didn't, it would increase my daily playtime by an hour at most to get 20m.
That only adresses part of what I said. In order for your 2 hour play time senario to be accurate you would need to get 50 merits every day for 20 days in just 2 hours of play time, in addition to doing 5-6 other missions, most with multiple objectives. And on top of that, you would need to earn at least 20m per day starting from day 1.

I am not saying that is not possible, what I am saying is that it would be very difficult to do. Once you figure out how long it would take an average player to get those 50 merits a day and 20 mil, and get 5-6 tips and run 5-6 tip missions, then you can compare that time to the same average player playing for a longer sesson only a couple times a week.

That way you can compare an apple to an apple instead of a BMW to a coconut.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuuk View Post
That 70 day figure is mathematically true. If you're not willing to do a little mental work to keep up with what is being said in the thread, maybe you should stop replying to it. For someone so hung up on data you seem to have a poor grasp of the data that I have provided.

You are saying my suggestion is "poor", but have given no reason for why that is. That is a vague descriptor which in this case is meaningless. The difference between the daily player and the non-daily player who play the same amount of hours over time is in fact "real information."
Oh, so insults now. Thanks. Have fun! /unsigned.


 

Posted

What I am telling you is that I do in fact do that every day, except for earning 20m inf. I run 5-6 mishes, then 50 merits worth of other stuff, every day, in around 2 hours, sometimes shorter, sometimes longer. I think you are vastly overestimating how long it takes to acquire and complete Tip Missions. From logging on, I will have my first Tip within a couple of minutes, and probably have that mission completed within another 5, rinse and repeat. Around 30-40 minutes for all Tip plus Alignment, then about 90 minutes to get 50 Merits. If I choose to do less efficient tfs/arcs it might take a little longer, but that's on me.

Like I said, if I had to earn another 20m inf, it would take another hour tops, so 3 hours. This is not supposition or theory, it is my actual play experience.

My whole premise is, shouldn't someone be able to achieve the same result that I do in 3 days of playing 2 hours /day(6 hours total), by playing one day for 6 hours? It seems pretty simple to me.


 

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What are you running that gets you 50 merits in 90 min?


 

Posted

lgtf+itf


 

Posted

Quote:
...However, wouldn't it make more sense to put a timer on the purchases themselves, and not the earning?
either way they do it it is putting a limit on how fast things can be purchased. obviously they want people doing other things other then farming for things with their time. how you choose to play is not the same way others do. and alot of people are just not interested in kitting out their toons. they are "casual" players.

also, like what was said earlier in this thread, GR has only been out for 2 weeks. alot of datamining happens after something goes live. and do not sit here trying to condescend others who have more experience in these things then you do. all it does is get you ignored or your posts not taken seriously.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuuk View Post
My suggestion: add a timer to the purchase of each item, like the one which is on "Convert Merits" right now. If they do not want a player producing a pvp recipe(on a single character) faster than 1/20 days, set that timer at 20 days. Allow a character to run as many Tip and Alignment Missions as they would like within their existing alignment to earn AMs. This would maintain current time limits on side-switching, while allowing "burst" players like player B above to earn AMs as much as they can during their playtime.
I can't agree with your suggestion. The purpose of these was actually as a means for players to earn these rewards without farming or using the market. The ironic thing about your suggestion is that you want to put the farming aspect of it back in. It's the whole reason why they put the time limit in there in the first place. They don't want players hording like they are currently doing with reward merits.

Now mind you, your suggestion would only benefit me because I probably can crank out A merit missions about as fast as anyone as I have several farming capable characters already. However, the mechanisms are in place precisely to stop players like me.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuuk View Post
What I am telling you is that I do in fact do that every day, except for earning 20m inf. I run 5-6 mishes, then 50 merits worth of other stuff, every day, in around 2 hours, sometimes shorter, sometimes longer. I think you are vastly overestimating how long it takes to acquire and complete Tip Missions. From logging on, I will have my first Tip within a couple of minutes, and probably have that mission completed within another 5, rinse and repeat. Around 30-40 minutes for all Tip plus Alignment, then about 90 minutes to get 50 Merits. If I choose to do less efficient tfs/arcs it might take a little longer, but that's on me.

Like I said, if I had to earn another 20m inf, it would take another hour tops, so 3 hours. This is not supposition or theory, it is my actual play experience.

My whole premise is, shouldn't someone be able to achieve the same result that I do in 3 days of playing 2 hours /day(6 hours total), by playing one day for 6 hours? It seems pretty simple to me.

So what you're saying is, it's unfair for the person who plays 6 hours on one day a week, to not get what the person who plays 2 hours a day, 3 days a week.

And that it's unfair because the person who plays 2 hours a day, 3 days a week, is going to end up making more hero merits.

Eh. So what? They'll both get there, and the one playing 6 hours a day gets to go off and do other things, while the one who's playing 2 hours a day is locked into doing the runs needed to earn them.

Frankly, the casual player shouldnt be worring what the non-casual player does, as they can get everything the other wants, just takes a bit of time. And even then, the IOs arent needed to play anyways...they're just extremely nice.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Ok so you can get an ITF and a LGTF together and done in 90 min. While that would not be an issue for the time to complete both of them on speed runs, what would be an issue for your average player would be to get the team together and complete them. Depending on the server and time of day and day of the week it could take anywhere from a few min to half an hour, sometimes more just to get a team together. If you do not have a group of friends that are on all the time, getting a PUG together for a LGTF can take longer than the TF itself.

I am willing to bet that you and I are not the average player. We both can get those things done pretty fast most of the time. But for your average player, 2 hours a day is not enough time to get all that done, at least not on a regular basis.

But let's pretend for a moment that it is. Player A does 2 hours a day for 6 days a week. Player B does 6 hours, 2 times a week. There is nothing stopping Player B from playing 3 different toons and ending up with the same results over time. Granted it will take 3 times as long to cash in for a pvp recipie, but he will get his pick of 3 pvp recipies in the same amount of play time that it would take Player A to get the same 3 pvp recipies.

This is all assuming that Player A and Player B even should be getting the same rewards. Should we adjust merit rewards for for Player B because he plays on Pinnacle in the middle of the night? Because Player A plays at peak times on Freedumb and is able to find teams for TFs faster so that would only be fair so that they can get the same rewards for the same amount of play time.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette View Post
I can't agree with your suggestion. The purpose of these was actually as a means for players to earn these rewards without farming or using the market. The ironic thing about your suggestion is that you want to put the farming aspect of it back in. It's the whole reason why they put the time limit in there in the first place. They don't want players hording like they are currently doing with reward merits.
It's not putting the farming aspect back in, they're farmed now, just farmed once per day per character. Yes, my suggestion would let people farm them more than that, but still not allow them to actually get the benefit of the farming more often than they can now. All things considered, I view this kind of farming as much more accessible to the average player. It doesn't take an IOed out aoe-heavy build.

This is the first I've heard of hording as a concern. Did the devs talk about this in beta? Are you talking about hording while leveling up, and then spending them all at 50? I'm not sure what the difference is between saving 1000 merits and then spending them after 2 months or whatever and spending them as they're earned. The same stuff is coming into existence.