Building a new system
By
Ethical,
Posted on: 2010-08-04 16:59 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
For the Intel systems, the i7-870 is now the same price as the i7-860.
I take it there is a good reason to go 16GB other than because you can. Those 4GB sticks are going for a 60% premium per GB over the 2GB stick quad kit with the same speed, timings and voltage. Even the 2 x 4GB stick kit with the same timings is less than half the price of the 4 x 4GB kit.
I know that price wise it's logical to pick the HD 5830 for the Crossfire configuration but there is a huge problem with the HD 5830s. When ATI was disabling portions of the GPU to make the 5830 (it's the same GPU that's in the 5850 and 5870) one of the things they did was to eliminate half of the render back ends (which handles things like Z buffering) making it the same as the HD 5770. This means that if you simply double the theoretical peak pixel output of the HD 5830, it is still less than the output of a HD 5870. Theoretical peak texture and shader output is 30% higher but I don't how much that lack of render back ends will hurt.
Also since the HD 5830 is the same GPU, it uses about the same amount of power as the HD 5870 and now you are putting two into the system. Nearly twice the power requirements and maybe 25% better performance some of the times. And remember, power equals heat.
I'm sure you realize that the Phenom II X4 965 isn't as powerful as the i7-860 (or 870). They should perform equally well for gaming but if you are using software than can take advantage of multiple cores such as video compression or 3D rendering, the Intel is the better choice.
IMO I would go with 2x4GB kit and put the money saved into your video card budget and get a pair of HD 5850s, if you are seriously about Crossfire. You'll still be saving around $100.
Let me think about the motherboards a bit.
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Quote:
Thanks for the advice. Every other time I've bought/built a computer I've been advised to get as much RAM as i could afford. Guess thats not the case so much anymore? |
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
For the Intel systems, the i7-870 is now the same price as the i7-860.
I take it there is a good reason to go 16GB other than because you can. Those 4GB sticks are going for a 60% premium per GB over the 2GB stick quad kit with the same speed, timings and voltage. Even the 2 x 4GB stick kit with the same timings is less than half the price of the 4 x 4GB kit. I know that price wise it's logical to pick the HD 5830 for the Crossfire configuration but there is a huge problem with the HD 5830s. When ATI was disabling portions of the GPU to make the 5830 (it's the same GPU that's in the 5850 and 5870) one of the things they did was to eliminate half of the render back ends (which handles things like Z buffering) making it the same as the HD 5770. This means that if you simply double the theoretical peak pixel output of the HD 5830, it is still less than the output of a HD 5870. Theoretical peak texture and shader output is 30% higher but I don't how much that lack of render back ends will hurt. Also since the HD 5830 is the same GPU, it uses about the same amount of power as the HD 5870 and now you are putting two into the system. Nearly twice the power requirements and maybe 25% better performance some of the times. And remember, power equals heat. I'm sure you realize that the Phenom II X4 965 isn't as powerful as the i7-860 (or 870). They should perform equally well for gaming but if you are using software than can take advantage of multiple cores such as video compression or 3D rendering, the Intel is the better choice. IMO I would go with 2x4GB kit and put the money saved into your video card budget and get a pair of HD 5850s, if you are seriously about Crossfire. You'll still be saving around $100. Let me think about the motherboards a bit. |
Also, can you explain a little more why the Intel processor will perform better than the amd? They're both quad cores, and the amd has a faster clock speed, so what's making the difference?
Quote:
Most individual older and basically 32-bit programs under Windows are unable to use more than 2 GB each. There are obscure settings you can juggle to get this up to 3 GB, but it tends to result in instability at best and frequently outright failure to work; it will be years still before people are reliably writing 64-bit clean code by default. |
Originally Posted by firespray
Every other time I've bought/built a computer I've been advised to get as much RAM as i could afford. Guess thats not the case so much anymore?
|
If your primary system design purpose is playing a single copy of CoH while little to nothing else is running, 4 GB and a fast dual-core is plenty. Once you start expecting to run other things in the background, or run multiple copies / accounts of CoH at once, you'll see some noticeable improvements from 6 GB or 8 GB, and a quad-core. With current technology, you'll be limited by processor concerns or graphical rendering limits long before you need more than 8 GB of memory, even if you're someone trying to run an entire superteam.
Another way to look at it is that with current technology, few to no ordinary home user programs will benefit from more than about 2 GB per core, and only fairly intensive parallel uses will need even that (running multiple copies of CoH does qualify).
As a final note, memory is generally the easiest thing to upgrade later. If something comes up in a couple of years where you actually need 16 GB (I'm doubtful, but predicting the future of computing is notoriously tricky), it's easy to upgrade when it comes up, and probably for less than it costs today in real terms.
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I do not know a terrible amount about building PCs, but I am aslo about to upgrade. I am doing the prebuilt (after looking at prices, i can get a better system than what i could have built since I am not willing to try building my own). One system was running dual 5770s and the other a single 5850. After doing some research, I have decided to go with the single 5850. the 5770's in crossfire would give better performace, but I also read they will suck up 10 watts more at a stand still and nearly 70 more under load than the single 5850. Also you can run into problems if you play other games that do not support the crossfire and will be taken down to the performace of a single 5770. Anyway, like I said I am no expert but sine I was looking at some of the same components on my system figured I would share what I found.
Quote:
Well the notion of putting as much RAM into a system as you can afford is a nice idea until it becomes more expensive than the CPU and video card combined. Simply put 4GB sticks are more than twice as expensive as their 2GB counterparts and is likely to be that way for a while. I imagine a year or two down the line they may become less than twice as expensive as 2GB sticks the way 2GB sticks are less than twice as expensive as 1GB sticks today but that's not now.|
Originally Posted by firespray
Thanks for the advice. Every other time I've bought/built a computer I've been advised to get as much RAM as i could afford. Guess thats not the case so much anymore?
Also, can you explain a little more why the Intel processor will perform better than the amd? They're both quad cores, and the amd has a faster clock speed, so what's making the difference? |
Why the Intel processor will perform better than the AMD? Because they're different designs created by different companies that solve the same problem?
Back when it was the Athlon 64 and the Pentium 4 were around, the Athlon 64 was roughly 30-40% faster per GHz than the P4. The original Core 2 Dual cores were twice as fast per GHz than than P4 based dual cores. Now four years later the Intel Core i7 quad/hex cores are roughly 40-50% faster per GHz than the Phenom II quad/hex cores. But this is on tasks that are heavy on the CPU, games are limited more by the video card than the CPU and that's why the performance difference is a lot closer with games. The exception is when the CPU is driving multiple high end video cards, then you may see a difference between CPUs, depends on the game.
The key thing today is both Intel and AMD are trying to price their CPUs roughly by actual performance and not simply by number of cores and clock speed. That's why the Phenom II X4 965 is $110 cheaper than the i7-870. It's also why the 3.2GHz Phenom II X6 1090T is $600 cheaper than the 3.2GHz i7-970 hex core (well some of that is just Intel shafting those who need to feel l337 and have deep pockets).
Still pondering about your motherboards choices.
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Okay, thought about it.
First I don't have a problem with your single card Intel motherboard. I would probably pick that if I would choose to save money on a Socket 1156 system.
Your Crossfire Intel motherboard is a tad overkill, allowing three to four video cards. You can save a bit of money going with the Asus P7P55D Pro or P7P55D-E Pro if you also want SATA III and USB 3.0.
For the single video card AMD motherboard I would go with either the Gigabyte GA-870A-UD3, the Asus M4A87TD EVO or the MSI 870A-G54. They all use the most current non Crossfire motherboard chipset (2nd video card slot is only x4) which also supports SATA III and all three also come with two USB 3.0 ports.
For the Crossfire AMD motherboard I would go with one based on the AMD 890GX chipset. Yes it has an onboard video chip but it's similar to the older 790X when it comes to Crossfire support. So that's either the Gigabyte GA-890GPA-UD3H or the Asus M4A89GTD PRO/USB3.
Personally I'm a single video card guy. It's less of a hassle, less heat generated, less power required and more consistent performance (Crossfire and SLi boost can vary greatly depending on the game). Your idea of dual HD 5830s means performance can vary between slightly less than a single HD 5830 to 30% faster than an HD 5870. For the same price I will always to with the single card over two cards lesser cards. But that's me.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
After finding out that my faithful old behemoth of a computer, which rode the bleeding edge just 3.5 years ago can't play CoH on the top graphics settings anymore, I decided it's time for a new computer. I plan on keeping some components from my old system (DVD burner, Case, Hard Drives, possibly the power supply and CPU cooler, and all peripherals) and replacing everything else for a major increase in performance. I'm considering a few different options right now. Components and Specs for each system are posted below.
Single Video Card Intel System
Motherboard
CPU
RAM
Video Card
Crossfire Intel System
Motherboard
CPU
RAM
Video Card (2x in crossfire)
Single Video Card AMD System
Motherboard
CPU
RAM
Video Card
Crossfire AMD System
Motherboard
CPU
Ram
Video Card (2x in crossfire)
This will only be the second system I've built, and the last one was more than 3 years ago, so I've got some questions.
The AMD processor seems like a FAR better choice than the intel, with considerably better performance at a considerably cheaper cost. It almost seems too good to be true. So is there some downside to the AMD, or is it simply a better choice?
I can get 16 GB of DDR3 1333 RAM for $480 vs. 16 GB of DDR3 1600 for $640. Is there enough extra performance in the DDR3 1600 to justify that extra $160 or would I be wasting my money?
Is there anything in particular I need to be aware of if I decide to go with a crossfire system rather than a single video card? Any benefits/drawbacks to either setup?
Will the systems I outlined above actually work? Mostly I'm concerned whether or not I've picked a motherboard that will support everything else.
I'm currently using a PC Power and Cooling silencer 610W power supply. Will that be sufficient to run the systems outlined above, or should I be looking at upgrading that as well?
I currently use a Zalman CNPS9700 CPU cooler, will that work with the CPUs listed above, or does that need to be upgraded.
Last, but certainly not least, is this going to be capable of running CoH at max settings?
Any other advice or suggestions would be very much appreciated as well.
Thanks.