I highly recommend /SR if you got the money for it. Softcapped Def. is nice, but a incredibly high +recharge build results in "perma-elude". Before I get flamed, I know elude cannot actually be perma but with Geas your down time can be like around 20-30 seconds or less for the first crash and then somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 seconds after the next crash; with the two repeating back and forth. I also had phase, aid self, a few blues, and archmage for crashes (stamina is not needed).
I was able to achieve these results with a spines/sr/dark with about 210-213% recharge and Geas.
I used to be able to do just about anything with mine: solo AVs, tank GMs, i12 arena, duels, & zone pvp, etc.
Quote:
Well, that's fine as a way of benchmarking DPS output, so it's useful. But it isn't soloing a pylon. That's the benchmark I'm usually after: DPS output in a solo combat situation. If you're going to accept someone else supporting you via aggro control, then you're measuring DPS output very narrowly: just your max possible DPS under ideal conditions. And that's fine, but again, not the benchmark I'm typically trying to nail down.|
Originally Posted by Gaidin
I have mixed feelings on this. If your build goal is to see how much DPS you can crank out and make survivability secondary, then I can see why a Tank's taunting would be both needed and acceptable given your goals. If you're someone who teams with a Tank and/or a dedicated healer and wants to see what kind of DPS you're contributing when you don't have aggro/need to use healing clicks, then I would accept usage of a taunting tank as acceptable as well.
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Edit: with a tank taunting, you're not necessarily measuring a build whose goal is DPS first and in which survivability is secondary. You're testing the build in a situation where DPS is everything and survivability is irrelevant. This is why I don't really find such a test useful. I want my scrappers to function not as damage-dealing primadonnas, but as self-sufficient units that can take on a variety of tasks with a minimum of support.
Quote:
Well, it turns out I was able to reduce the recharge of AS to 1.57sec, which leaves a gap just barely smaller than a server tick. And it remains softcapped to melee & ranged with 44.9% AoE defense; 1772hp, 23hp/sec regen (including Panacea proc), Tough, Aid Self; and provided the P.Shifter and Panacea procs behave themselves, it should still be endurance-sustainable. |
Originally Posted by Werner
I suspect you'd be able to fiddle with the build to get the gap down where you need it without severely compromising it. The compromised build I posted had, I believe, significantly MORE recharge than it needed to get to a single tick gap. I'm sure there's a happy medium.
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Only problem is, using your DPS formula (which I admit has more mathematical rigor than the one I was using), I'm still only seeing 220dps--mostly because I lost a great deal of global +damage in my scramble to fix the recharge while maintaining endurance sufficiency and Aid Self. Whereas the sample build you posted has a hefty 22% global damage buff, I was only able to keep 6.5% in mine, and it makes a big difference once the -res procs begin to compound the damage.
On the other hand, my build is significantly more survivable, having more hp, better passive regen, and Aid Self. And where the build you posted does 237dps for about 71 seconds and then dies horribly, Burnsides maintains his 220dps indefinitely.
So my revised build is functional and capable of many feats of derring-do, but I have to ask myself whether it's a sword build on par with my BS/SD and Kat/WP. When I was looking at maybe 240ish dps from DB/SR I was thinking thumbs up, but looking at maybe 220ish dps, I'm awfully nonplussed. I'm thinking there must still be room for improvement.
Here's the revision if you want to peruse it.
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1425;710;1420;HEX;| |78DA9D934B6F125114C7EFC0500A0CAF52EC8B47E943A0D86971655B6D935A4DACA| |56269BA52710AB72D7142C90C98D618A37B579AE8CA9D56FD08C6959F0CCFE3D2C4| |98B87002FFDFDC33FF73B8E75CA672B66508F17A436891DBB6E5BAF55AC3B13A1DE| |9F877AD6ECFB1ECC466CF69BBADA674A70B8E7CDE7265B3E817424C0E8CF58AB4A5| |34B77A965DDFB42D30662F1F6DC923D976A559EBE16A4F1ED9F24CBAF17BED13E9C| |876D71CDC18D5D353DBBCDBEAB6A5EB066951EB48D90CABF8F149B7D53EE6554536| |5B8D565BC6EF745A0D73F3B4795EAF586E573AE7E3B0AD227C5FE0FEE8EAEBC2029| |485E790D120449A841149A8A05D23BB5724350C0D8D128231C2950461177C9AF269| |FFF0BD049F977FDEE7CD7B30A4171845426481305222647E01126208B27C5C5DF80| |AB4B15710F26B1E2AE4E73E869F32B88F18F731CE7D8C3F2354212BA00A0572149A| |815088439E508942C61FF08321CC065F38E7A5DAD384B9146121C3C81296D6C19B1| |60F212BAACA467920791EC85286CA3E00435C6D25CE86610825D410131F6900A3EF| |181F08E5F7843DF025556A7291AA69101A53C73AB64DAEABF7193B8C0A21BF4B780| |3F609750C132B149A5C65AC11523719B7F81836A8B51A644DA99EA678CB73DC539E| |0FD90B86B46A207D9D723263348EDC3A0475AF5854D4C1995543CD0629793AC4301| |861422EC28812F6216B86B3F4197E32CB4F66B9C62CD798E3E434D8E7B94B31DF87| |4B64215250632AF0E915D30C3EC4221FE2021FF03E68498DA9F4994671ED0BE382F| |195B0F88DF19D50832C93B33493FF434B8C8BB010CB6A80CB7CC0E50358E745799B| |90D22FDF4EF8E08E77FE8A5475F5464244E3AEF4CB97B41F88C1ABC24FFFF7FA610| |CCA05F682A0FB285510ED00EF1EA13CC6E513BCB3F0EE10A581CBFE4F63B0E1E80D| |DCD70ACA2ACA1A4A12F627DEA2D31F0209A118286194084A14258692409944F984D| |2FF0D974FF270| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
I'm playing an Electric/Willpower character, and having a blast. Not sure how the numbers work out, but I don't really care too much about that. My character is fun.
Quote:
LOL. Very true. Not a build I'd play.|
Originally Posted by Chaos_String
And where the build you posted does 237dps for about 71 seconds and then dies horribly,
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chaos_String
Burnsides maintains his 220dps indefinitely.
So my revised build is functional and capable of many feats of derring-do, but I have to ask myself whether it's a sword build on par with my BS/SD and Kat/WP. When I was looking at maybe 240ish dps from DB/SR I was thinking thumbs up, but looking at maybe 220ish dps, I'm awfully nonplussed. I'm thinking there must still be room for improvement. |
I'm sure there's still room for improvement - I spend tens of hours on my own builds, fiddling and tweaking. And they do improve. But after the first couple hours, I think you can get a good idea about what will be possible. In this case, while nothing is jumping out at me to change, let's say you could boost damage output to 225 or 230 DPS while making minor improvements to survivability. Then would it be worth it? I think you'd still be in the same boat when comparing to your existing Scrappers.
I might personally do it. For some reason, I've always wanted a top chain Dual Blades, just because. Well, in my case, I'd probably go with Blinding Feint -> Sweeping Strike -> Ablating Strike, trading some DPS for extra cone damage to tear apart spawns. It's pointless, particularly since I have a Fire/Shield I could IO out for better numbers, but it just seems like it would be fun.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Alright guys, well, for the most part, Iv'e been messing around with DM/Elec and a Kat/Elec, and I have to say that the dm/elec is extremely fun and survivable.
On on the other hand, I'm still having an issue with deciding between DB or Kat, I mean, realistically, Kat needs a secondary that doesn't just reach softcap and stop, wasting DA really bothers me for some reason. Combining it with /elec has me wondering, how bad is the redraw? Specifically on energize?
Regarding DB, some have mentioned it being above Kat in dmg and about on the same plane for AoE, is this true? If this is the case, why not just go DB, and I can come up with a secondary that meets my needs?
Also, if anyone has any builds for a dm/elec, even if they are just in the works, I'd love to take a look. The combination is keeping me fairly entertained(and alive for that matter). I havnt decided if I want to get my SR fix with DB or DM, so any thoughts would be greatly appreciated 
Flux Tempest-Electric Melee/Willpower
Zaunte's Rage-Claws/Invulnerability
Here's one I was playing around with a while back ... it has about zero for defenses so that would be the first thing to fiddle around with.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.704
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
DM_ElA (v2.00.i16 purpled): Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Electric Armor
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Blaze Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Smite -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(3), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), SipInsght-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 1: Charged Armor -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(7), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 2: Lightning Field -- Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(5), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(11), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(15), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37)
Level 4: Shadow Maul -- Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(13), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(15), Armgdn-Dam%(34)
Level 6: Conductive Shield -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(7), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 8: Siphon Life -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(9), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 10: Static Shield -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(50), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 12: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 14: Health -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(39), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(39), Mrcl-Rcvry+(40), RgnTis-Regen+(48)
Level 16: Grounded -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 18: Dark Consumption -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(19), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(19), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(43)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), P'Shift-EndMod(21), P'Shift-End%(25)
Level 22: Energize -- Numna-Heal/EndRdx(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(23), Numna-EndRdx/Rchg(23), Mrcl-EndRdx/Rchg(25), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(31), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 24: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(27), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(27), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(48)
Level 28: Tough -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(29), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(A), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(33), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Hectmb-Dam%(34), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 35: Power Sink -- Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(36), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(36), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(43), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(50)
Level 38: Super Speed -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 41: Ring of Fire -- GravAnch-Immob/Rchg(A), GravAnch-Acc/Immob/Rchg(42), GravAnch-Acc/Rchg(42), GravAnch-Immob/EndRdx(42), GravAnch-Hold%(43)
Level 44: Char -- UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg(A), UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg(45), UbrkCons-Acc/Rchg(45), UbrkCons-EndRdx/Hold(45), UbrkCons-Dam%(46)
Level 47: Lightning Reflexes -- Run-I(A)
Level 49: Recall Friend -- Zephyr-ResKB(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 2: Ninja Run
Code:
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Quote:
I'm with you on this regarding a toon built for soloing a pylon, including my own.|
Originally Posted by Chaos_String
That's the benchmark I'm usually after: DPS output in a solo combat situation.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chaos_String
Edit: with a tank taunting, you're not necessarily measuring a build whose goal is DPS first and in which survivability is secondary. You're testing the build in a situation where DPS is everything and survivability is irrelevant. This is why I don't really find such a test useful. I want my scrappers to function not as damage-dealing primadonnas, but as self-sufficient units that can take on a variety of tasks with a minimum of support.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Werner
"Yeah, I wouldn't personally want to test DPS on a pylon with a tank taunting. "
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Thus far, all of my scrappers are built to solo pylons/AVs and since their design goal was to have that level of survivability while dealing damage, then my DPS numbers should reflect time spent healing/clicking mez protection/etc.
However, if I wanted to test any archtype's build for damage output that doesn't focus on that level of survivability but rather depends on teammates/insp usage for such support, then I see no reason why a Tank taunting wouldn't be acceptable as a way to measure DPS output under control conditions.
An example would be a blaster trying to determine what damage he contributes to an AV fight. The blaster in question doesn't have capped def to Ranged, so he wouldn't survive against a pylon to check his DPS, but his team Tank/Defender controls aggro/buffs & heals him so that he can focus on damage. Having a Tank taunt the pylon wouldn't be much different than an AV fight on a team with a competent Tank/Defender.
Quote:
I can see DM/Elec being pretty beastly for damage as, with enough recharge, LF is going to be boosted by SD a majority of the time. Add that to DM's optimal attack chain and let the fun ensue. Should be a fun combo. |
Originally Posted by iBones
Alright guys, well, for the most part, Iv'e been messing around with DM/Elec and a Kat/Elec, and I have to say that the dm/elec is extremely fun and survivable.
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Thank you for the build...
Yea, the defense is extremely low, but at least it's something to start on, thank you.
Flux Tempest-Electric Melee/Willpower
Zaunte's Rage-Claws/Invulnerability
Quote:
Yep. If I was measuring Blaster DPS against a Pylon, I WOULD do it with a Tank taunting. So far, I've only played blasters on dedicated teams that include a Tank. So yes, a realistic measure of what I contribute to an AV fight or other DPS situations involves me not needing to worry about damage for the most part.
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Originally Posted by Gaidin
An example would be a blaster trying to determine what damage he contributes to an AV fight. The blaster in question doesn't have capped def to Ranged, so he wouldn't survive against a pylon to check his DPS, but his team Tank/Defender controls aggro/buffs & heals him so that he can focus on damage. Having a Tank taunt the pylon wouldn't be much different than an AV fight on a team with a competent Tank/Defender.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
Well, investment isn't really an object in a sense of what I can afford, but it probably is in the sense of what's actually available. I've had 4x 2 billion bids up for Gladiator's Armor uniques (1 each of crafted and recipe, redside and blueside) for months and haven't gotten one. I know I could buy them off-market, if I felt like dealing with someone I don't know in those circumstances but I'm afraid I don't, and might not ever, unless I could involve a trusted third party.|
Originally Posted by Werner
LOL. Very true. Not a build I'd play.
Your revised build looks very nice, but yes, you have to ask yourself if it's any better than anything else you already play. That's why I didn't IO out my Broad Sword/Shield Defense. I had great fun leveling it, but when I started comparing what I could do with it to what I could already do with my existing Scrappers, nothing about it stood out enough to be worth the investment. In your case, yeah, Broad Sword/Shield Defense is probably capable of better DPS with similar survivability. Dual Blades/Super Reflexes would be fun, but wouldn't really be better in a numerical sense, so it's a matter of what you're after and how much you're willing to spend. I'm sure there's still room for improvement - I spend tens of hours on my own builds, fiddling and tweaking. And they do improve. But after the first couple hours, I think you can get a good idea about what will be possible. In this case, while nothing is jumping out at me to change, let's say you could boost damage output to 225 or 230 DPS while making minor improvements to survivability. Then would it be worth it? I think you'd still be in the same boat when comparing to your existing Scrappers. I might personally do it. For some reason, I've always wanted a top chain Dual Blades, just because. Well, in my case, I'd probably go with Blinding Feint -> Sweeping Strike -> Ablating Strike, trading some DPS for extra cone damage to tear apart spawns. It's pointless, particularly since I have a Fire/Shield I could IO out for better numbers, but it just seems like it would be fun. |
But yeah, I might go forward with DB/SR just because, even if it would be unremarkable compared to my BS/SD and Kat/WP. The thing is, I have a guy with a sword and board and dauntless courage. I have a guy with a talsorian katana and a crazy notion that he's a Jedi. And I really want a guy with a rapier and dagger and dazzling agility. I'm personally trained in all these weapons and although in CoX they look about as silly to me as fireballs and curving bullets, I'm very fond of my natural origin scrappers who face down superpowered villains with nothing but their swords and wits about them.
But yeah, it would be really nice if the DB/SR could be built to stand out in some way next to the others, but I'm afraid it might not be possible given the various powersets and their capabilities.
Ah well. After revising it very late last night and sleeping late this morning, I awoke with the revelation that my build has significantly more endurance than it really needs. Perhaps I can move some slots around and squeeze in a bit more damage. Anyway thanks for all your help, Werner.
Quote:
At lvl 50, maybe. But on the way, MA will have better DPS since you'll be at low recharge. (starting IOs around 30 will help with recharge, but most people won't have LoTG that soon, and you can't have purples yet.)|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
That just sounds wrong
Better that Electric... maybe vs Katana or Dual Blades? MA will lag... |
Quote:
| That is in the results are in 2 where he had most attacks slotted with 1acc/1end-red/1rec-red/3dam. That is not a lot of rechagre so MA is better but when you start to put recharge in, Dual Blades and Katana blow pass MA and never looks back. |
Quote:
| "The Results Are In...", the first thread, takes a flat 250% recharge into account for all attacks to create the highest DPS chains and, even considering this, MA/ does come in close to both Kat/ and DB/... but that is before you factor in the Achilles Heel -Res proc, which MA/ can't use. The gap becomes even wider if you include the FotG -Res proc. |
Quote:
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Also, in response to Fire Wyvern: I never stated that Elec/ was either better or worse than MA/ for ST damage, though I believe that MA/ would have a ST DPS advantage which would be off-set by the fact that Elec's damage is far less resisted. I was making an inference that since he was fine with a primary that both deals all lethal damage and cannot slot either -Res proc that he would likely be tolerant of Elec/'s lower ST damage when compared with Kat/ and DB/, though I had made the point that I was not as tolerant as per my described experiences and preferences. |
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
Thank you all for your input and rather interesting points. I have my two scrappers that I'm going to work on- DM/Elec and DB/SR. So far, both are doing great and extremely fun.
If anyone has a good build for either combination, please post it here. I'm still in the lowbie levels, but I like to know what I should be aiming for along the way.
Again, thank you all, and I hope to see you in-game
Flux Tempest-Electric Melee/Willpower
Zaunte's Rage-Claws/Invulnerability
The first example is something I'd be ok with if I decide to make the Claws/Elec scrapper who would be built for maximum damage output first and survivability second, as I'd use it when teaming and not for AV soloing. This is if I don't roll the Kat/Elec, which is the other build I've been pondering per the "Best EA Primary" thread. I'm trying to nail down a character concept for either claws/ or kat/ before deciding.