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They work naturally together, DM has -to-hit debuff that compliments a defense set. DM also has a self heal that SR is lacking.|
Originally Posted by Man_Of_War
I was looking to roll a DM/SR scrapper but I was wondering what the pro's and cons are of it. Do they work well together?
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I've soloed about 25 different AVs with mine, its very capable.
Yep, they work very well together. One thing that Super Reflexes wants to be really, really unkillable is a self heal. Dark Melee gives that to you without even needing to stop attacking.
Pros: Very survivable, good single target damage output, almost fire and forget easy
Cons: Poor AoE output, so easy it can be boring, a top end Dark Melee/Shield Defense is better in every way
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Only if you like awesome.
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Originally Posted by Man_Of_War
Do they work well together?
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DM/SR was the AV soloing build of choice before Shields came around in I13. They're still very very capable though if you have lots of cash to invest, DM/Shield is probably better.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Also, here is a link to a thread with some good builds in it.
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I wouldn't say in every way. SR has superior DDR to shields (without exploits that wont last forever), and SR has more recharge potential with quickness, and scaling resistance if your health does get low.
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Originally Posted by Werner
Yep, they work very well together. One thing that Super Reflexes wants to be really, really unkillable is a self heal. Dark Melee gives that to you without even needing to stop attacking.
Pros: Very survivable, good single target damage output, almost fire and forget easy Cons: Poor AoE output, so easy it can be boring, a top end Dark Melee/Shield Defense is better in every way |
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In the game, as it exists today, a top end Dark/Shield build has the same capped DDR that Super Reflexes has. It may change some day, but I don't plan around what maybe, someday, might happen, if the devs are in a bad mood and feel like swinging the nerf bat. We could just as easily suggest that they may someday nerf something that benefits Super Reflexes as they could someday nerf something that benefits Shield Defense. Advantage: Tie.|
Originally Posted by DR_EVIL_NA
I wouldn't say in every way. SR has superior DDR to shields (without exploits that wont last forever), and SR has more recharge potential with quickness, and scaling resistance if your health does get low.
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I don't count the recharge of Super Reflexes as an advantage. Why? Well, recharge is merely a tool. What does it improve on a Dark Melee/Super Reflexes? Damage, and very little else. It makes it easier to get the top DPS chain (heal included) and lets you keep Soul Drain up for a slightly higher percentage of the time. But Dark/Shield can run the top DPS chain too, and destroys DM/SR on DPS, AoE, and pretty much any other measure of damage output. Advantage: Shield Defense.
Then we have scaling resistance. That's great and all, and it adds up, and it's saved my bacon. But Shield Defense has full time resistance. You don't have to wait to get badly hurt, so it's better for the sharp spikes of damage you tend to see in high end play, like AV soloing. You also get the hit point bonus from True Grit, which is functionally equivalent to resistance. Against All Odds also has a damage debuff. Advantage: Shield Defense.
I'm not saying I WANT it to be this way. I WANT DM/SR to have SOMETHING that it can claim to be better at when IO'd to the gills. I do, after all, have a DM/SR IO'd to the gills that I would like to be competitive in SOME way. But I'm just not seeing any advantage to DM/SR over DM/SD when both are IO'd to the gills.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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To expand a little bit on this, in my experience scaling resist isn't very helpful against AVs anyways. The first hit takes a huge chunk of HP a lot of times against AVs and if they get you real quick a second time then the resist may not mean a thing when you only have 200 hit points left.
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Originally Posted by Werner
Then we have scaling resistance. That's great and all, and it adds up, and it's saved my bacon. But Shield Defense has full time resistance. You don't have to wait to get badly hurt, so it's better for the sharp spikes of damage you tend to see in high end play, like AV soloing.
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In the words of the immortal Dr. Evil, "Throw me a frickin bone here!" |
Originally Posted by Werner
In the game, as it exists today, a top end Dark/Shield build has the same capped DDR that Super Reflexes has. It may change some day, but I don't plan around what maybe, someday, might happen, if the devs are in a bad mood and feel like swinging the nerf bat. We could just as easily suggest that they may someday nerf something that benefits Super Reflexes as they could someday nerf something that benefits Shield Defense. Advantage: Tie.
I don't count the recharge of Super Reflexes as an advantage. Why? Well, recharge is merely a tool. What does it improve on a Dark Melee/Super Reflexes? Damage, and very little else. It makes it easier to get the top DPS chain (heal included) and lets you keep Soul Drain up for a slightly higher percentage of the time. But Dark/Shield can run the top DPS chain too, and destroys DM/SR on DPS, AoE, and pretty much any other measure of damage output. Advantage: Shield Defense. Then we have scaling resistance. That's great and all, and it adds up, and it's saved my bacon. But Shield Defense has full time resistance. You don't have to wait to get badly hurt, so it's better for the sharp spikes of damage you tend to see in high end play, like AV soloing. You also get the hit point bonus from True Grit, which is functionally equivalent to resistance. Against All Odds also has a damage debuff. Advantage: Shield Defense. I'm not saying I WANT it to be this way. I WANT DM/SR to have SOMETHING that it can claim to be better at when IO'd to the gills. I do, after all, have a DM/SR IO'd to the gills that I would like to be competitive in SOME way. But I'm just not seeing any advantage to DM/SR over DM/SD when both are IO'd to the gills. |
I never thought SR would need a buff but it almost does. I only say that because I'm never a supporter of set debuffs.
I still love the set.
Heh. I don't think Super Reflexes needs a buff. It's still a VERY good set, particularly at lower influence levels since it is so easy to soft cap. Buff it, and you probably have to buff everything BUT Shield Defense to keep them from getting left behind.
I think I can throw both of us a bone, though. It really won't surprise me if you're right, and the Shields DDR exploit (if it's considered one) eventually goes away, though I'm not holding my breath. If it does, that MIGHT be enough. Shields might still be a better choice for the majority of situations when IO'd out, but Super Reflexes would have a very solid niche fighting defense debuffing foes, of which there are many, which has never been quite so clear as it is on my soft-capped Dark Armor with 0% DDR. Ow!
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Oh I know, I was fighting some +3 Romans with my smash/ lethal softcapped fire/wp and was eventually sitting at -62% Def. |
Originally Posted by Werner
Heh. I don't think Super Reflexes needs a buff. It's still a VERY good set, particularly at lower influence levels since it is so easy to soft cap. Buff it, and you probably have to buff everything BUT Shield Defense to keep them from getting left behind.
I think I can throw both of us a bone, though. It really won't surprise me if you're right, and the Shields DDR exploit (if it's considered one) eventually goes away, though I'm not holding my breath. If it does, that MIGHT be enough. Shields might still be a better choice for the majority of situations when IO'd out, but Super Reflexes would have a very solid niche fighting defense debuffing foes, of which there are many, which has never been quite so clear as it is on my soft-capped Dark Armor with 0% DDR. Ow! |
I'm partial to SR because it was first strong scrap and I still have normal DDR fire/shield. It can suck to lose your main advantage in a fight when -def gets involved.
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The fact that you make this point infers /SR's advantage. For the majority of the player base, /SR is the best option for AV soloing due to it's ease of soft-capping and reaching 95% DDR. Expense plays a huge part in the general populace, I know this because I am the only one in my SG and friends that has enough influence to fully IO out a toon and supply my SG-mates with influence to boot.|
Originally Posted by Werner
I WANT DM/SR to have SOMETHING that it can claim to be better at when IO'd to the gills. [/i].
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Even without any nerfs to /Shields or buffs to /SR, there is a distinct point that makes each quite viable and stand alone as perfectly balanced sets. That balancing point lies directly on expense vs. top performance. If you want a toon that can solo AVs, /SR is the top choice for a low-expense toon and /Shields for the high-expense build.
The game isnt balanced around IO's, so any arguement that involves them cant involve balance by definition.
The real question is if Hami-O's are imbalanced, as Warner implies. I really hope not. The sacrifiese in time, inf to make shields like SR are emense, and is a perfect example of the artistic nature of this game that truely sets it apart from all others. That you can forge a toon that is truely more than the sum of it's enhancement and is integrated so well. Pitty that this would change.
I have both dm/shield and SR. My SR was around since i1 and is IO'ed out, shields is not. I just wanted to see the diff. I dont have the time/inf to spend making shields what I'd like it to be, both because the requirements are too high and I'd rather diversify toons.
In short, generic SO/IOs only being factored - /shields and /SR are distict enough animals and should remain as is. Both are capable.
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
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According to Positron HOs are now working as intended. Its when Castle wakes up and says hey lets make the DDR in AD unenhanceable. That is when I will cry. Cascading defense failure ftl...
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Originally Posted by DR_EVIL_NA
I wouldn't say in every way. SR has superior DDR to shields (without exploits that wont last forever), and SR has more recharge potential with quickness, and scaling resistance if your health does get low.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Wow. Right, then. The devs don't care one whit about balance with IOs. Players shouldn't either. Not only shouldn't they, but the very definition of balance means they CAN'T discuss IO'd balance. This conversation isn't even occurring, or if it is occurring, is not a balance discussion. OK! |
Originally Posted by Kractis_Sky
The game isnt balanced around IO's, so any arguement that involves them cant involve balance by definition.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Which really makes the BotZ change interesting for me. It *SEEMS* that the devs think that the bonuses are so far gone that it's detrimental to creativity - theirs and ours - not a balance issue. I mean people would go so far out of their way to slot 5 sets of these and take the easy road (and using only 3 slots at that.) *IF* this is so, BotZ as it stands "un-nerfed" is in contradistiction to my artistic point about builds. So much that the BotZ "nerf" wasnt a nerf for balance but to enhance creativity - BotZ was so bad to them it was degeneratly so. Yes, there are some peeps that will cry "it's my poragative." I say "And the dev's, too." A point that I dont think many technical peeps caught, but since the scrapper forums can so easily tweak builds, I think it was seen as "well, heres another challange!!"
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
I was looking to roll a DM/SR scrapper but I was wondering what the pro's and cons are of it. Do they work well together?