Why do you AoE Immobilize -kb on top of earthquake/ice slick, WHY !!!
By
brophog02,
Posted on: 2010-01-23 22:04 in Controllers
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No, actually my level 50 is set to 0/+4 with bosses. The rest of my controllers are at 0/+2 from about level 6 onward. I simply felt that it needed to be pointed out that it is unwise to assume that "everyone" has a given power, especially on a pick up team. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
How did we get from "with 2 controllers on a team" to an AoE hold is useless solo? That has to be nearly the ulimate non-sequitor.
I'd also say that you are pretty much missing the point of the controller solo if you don't take the AoE hold and believe it to be worthless. I'd guess that you are soloing set for one player. |
With a massive recharge and a very short duration, I find the AoE holds to be almost entirely useless - I'd have to six slot them to get them even slightly usable. I strongly dislike Hasten, and never take it if I can avoid it. (I consider it a FoTM power, and aside from everything else, I skip it to annoy people who tell me I NEED to have it.) And I didn't say I skipped all AoE controls. I only skip the AoE Holds and Sleeps.
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Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
No, actually my level 50 is set to 0/+4 with bosses. The rest of my controllers are at 0/+2 from about level 6 onward. I simply felt that it needed to be pointed out that it is unwise to assume that "everyone" has a given power, especially on a pick up team.
With a massive recharge and a very short duration, I find the AoE holds to be almost entirely useless - I'd have to six slot them to get them even slightly usable. I strongly dislike Hasten, and never take it if I can avoid it. (I consider it a FoTM power, and aside from everything else, I skip it to annoy people who tell me I NEED to have it.) And I didn't say I skipped all AoE controls. I only skip the AoE Holds and Sleeps. |
Different playstyles. I assume you are not including Volcanic Gasses with the other AoE holds, by the way.
I find the AoE Holds to be quite worthwhile taking. Most of the time, they fill in the hole while other AoE control powers are recharging. On a pre-perma PA Ill/Rad, Flash and EM Pulse can control when PA is recharging and Spectral Terror isn't enough. On a Fire/Rad Controller, Cinders provides enough time, when Flashfire is recharging, for Choking Cloud to work its magic. On Plant Controllers, Seeds has to recharge and Vines can fill that hole when needed. On some characters, the AoE hold becomes more of a "panic button" power, but I still take it with almost all of my controllers. (I skipped Flash on my Illusion/TA since he stays at range and EM Pulse Arrow and Oil Slick Arrow fills the hole when PA is recharging.) At level 50, if I want to reduce the slots, I get by with 2 Acc/Mez Hami-Os, 2 Recharge.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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As long as you remember that Seeds usually does not affect bosses on the first application but Ice Slick does. Not an issue if the bosses are mezzed in some other way, but if they aren't and you use Roots they will immediately stand up and start attacking again, because they are both immune to knockback and not immobilized (unless you score an Overpower). This is why you really have to think carefully before using an AoE immob on someone's knockdown patch.
| 4. Your powers may be interfering with theirs as well. If I just used seeds of confusion on a big group of enemies, I don't want them falling down, I want them killing each other, so if another troller on the team uses a knockdown power, I'll use roots to stop the KD so they can go back to beating on each other. |
Im no stranger to Controllers, so ill chirp in on this one.
I can agree with diffrent playing styles, or that the iPod, TV watching, Cheetoes covered fingers of a mindless player can be part of the problem, but by no means is it done to offend anyone, or tick them off.(Atleast one would hope not.)
As someone who Solo's alot, rather then teaming, mainly because the team IQ and Co-operation now days is about as low as Swamp Fungi, I definatly take the AoE Hold, and slot that puppy for as much Recharge as possible, because I solo at +0/8 w/bosses, to +1/8 w/bosses at my lowest solo settings.Hasten, is also taken to help it along.FoTM my rear!That power is down right needed on some builds and power sets!
As for popular Controller builds?I dont make them, or use the power sets.
I purposely go off and use the lesser used power sets because they are way less travelled, and way more useful then people say they are.
My favorite controller Right now is a Earth/Sonic, and im working on a second one that be just as fun for me to play with.Not sure if its a Mind/TA, or a Mind/Cold yet, havnt made up my mind on the secondary.
My point is, to the OP, many players dont know they are stepping on your toes.Iv had this issue before, and iv stopped for a moment to tell them "Hey, when you see me doing this, try not to do this.Because <incert reason> is happening when you do.", acctually works better then saying nothing at all and blowing up about it.
To be perfectly honest some times the immob want work all the time, so I use ice slick, where some times you do have foes that do fly, or it wont work there for that is where you use your immob QED. Then you toss in a couple of freezing rain, some thunder clap, couple of other holds, add in Jack Frost for good messieurs and just sit back and watch the fun. Or just do what Pum said, after all its all in good fun. IE that's what happens when u get a bunch of noobs that do AE farming and reach level 50 and don't know how to play there toon.
I know myself if I notice, Oil Slick, Ice Slick, Earthquake, Carrion Creepers patch, Sleet, Freezing Rain...whatever I will stop and either chat with the other defender or troller or synergize with their playstyle.
For example let's say they're an Earth/Rad right after the duration of earthquake ends I will throw out my hold/immob out there and do my thing...be it Fire cages + Flash Fire or whatever. If I see him/her using earthquake again I stop spamming and wait till' the duration of earthquake to end. Normally with a 8 man team spawns don't last long.
The only Time I can see it sending a tell about synergy being necessary is if they have two kd powers like Ice Slick and Freezing Rain.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Knockdown and Knockback are the same attribute. Protection from one is protection from the other. ...
...Illusion and Mind do not have any -knockback at all. |
Mind has lift
Illusions phantom has knock
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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Which are knockup and knockback respectively, not -knockback.|
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
Mind has lift
Illusions phantom has knock |
-knockback meaning 'that prevent knockback.'
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As Edana indicated, and if you read the context of the paragraph in which you found that snippet, I was stating that neither Illusion nor Mind have any powers that PREVENT knockback. I'm pretty familiar with the fact that Phantasm has knockback in his blasts. And, if you are being in a "corrective" mood, Mind has Levitate, not Lift. Lift is the power in Gravity.
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Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
Mind has lift
Illusions phantom has knock |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Iv got a better answer then the previous one for the OP, on his issues teaming with other controllers.
Make your own teams, and be the only Controller on them.Problem Solved.
Your Welcome, in advance.
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This. Exactly this. And we all do it to some extent. And yeah, I used to have the same complaint as the OP, but learned to adjust.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
Because people overestimate the importance of their own powers and underestimate the importance of others'.
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If the situation is in hand (and hard controls or no, if 2 30+ controllers can't lock down damn near everything w/a tank in tow, there's a lot more going on wrong than misuse of an AoE immob), why not spam the AoE immob? It adds to damage and sets up containment. Is that Ice Slick really keeping your tank alive? Seriously? That tank is that fragile?
A single controller might use a slick as a primary mean of control. On my Ice controller, and on decent teams, I generally eschew it for my immob+Tornado combos instead, cuz really, most ppl can handle getting shot at every once in a while. On my Earth controller, EQ is like about the 4th or 5th line of defense. Slick/EQ's nice for adds, or for opening fights around corners, but once the fight's in hand (as in the tank has acquired most of the aggro), I really think ppl get oversensitive about their precious KD patches being nullified by other tactics (again, see quoted text above).
Now, I fully realize that a great deal of the AoE immob spamming is in fact mindless idiocy or plain ignorance of bad/uninformed controllers, which sometimes can be solved by communication and other times can't. You can complain about it, only form your own teams, or just learn to deal w/it. Consider it an extra challenge in an otherwise Easy Mode, i.e. playing a controller.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
dave_p very very well put. I was going to put something, but you summed up my feelings in fewer words than I could.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Depends highly on the situation. There are definitely groups of enemies that some Controllers have a hard time locking down. And plenty of times where the Ice Slick is indeed useful, since its knockdown blows past boss' natural mezz protection. | If the situation is in hand (and hard controls or no, if 2 30+ controllers can't lock down damn near everything w/a tank in tow, there's a lot more going on wrong than misuse of an AoE immob), why not spam the AoE immob? It adds to damage and sets up containment. Is that Ice Slick really keeping your tank alive? Seriously? That tank is that fragile? |
So again it depends. But do I think we have to turn this around for a second; if your team's damage is so low that you have to rely on a Controller spamming AoE containment to kill things you've already started off on strange footing. Fire/Kin might put out damage high enough to justify that sort of tradeoff, but only once approaching the 40s. Maybe I'm not down with the times, but when Earth and Ice Controllers start caging things for the containment value instead of knocking them down it makes me wonder what it is they think they are bringing to the team.
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Oh sure, you have exceptional situations when you need to concentrate more on control & mitigation, but let's face it, the great majority of the time, 2 controllers and a tank should have a decent grasp of the situation where basically, you just wanna contribute to DPS, which spamming AoE immobs do to varying extents. Not saying the team should be relying on the controller's damage, but if you can finish the fight in 20 sec instead of 30, why not?|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Depends highly on the situation. There are definitely groups of enemies that some Controllers have a hard time locking down. And plenty of times where the Ice Slick is indeed useful, since its knockdown blows past boss' natural mezz protection.
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But yeah, if you're running into hordes of mez resistant (but not KD resistant) mobs that your tank might not be able to handle, you might wanna communicate your desire to set up Ice Slicks to the other controller. If he's still spamming his immobs, by all means, scream n00b! at him.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
As long as you remember that Seeds usually does not affect bosses on the first application but Ice Slick does. Not an issue if the bosses are mezzed in some other way, but if they aren't and you use Roots they will immediately stand up and start attacking again, because they are both immune to knockback and not immobilized (unless you score an Overpower). This is why you really have to think carefully before using an AoE immob on someone's knockdown patch.
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If you have multiple trollers, you have plenty of holds to go around for a couple of bosses........plus everything is going to be dead before those bosses have a chance to do much. It is still a non-issue then.
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Ok but once you get to that point all I'm saying is you would have done better to replace one of them with a Blaster. And I don't know what you mean by "multiple trollers." I've seen plenty of teams with as many as four or five Controllers wipe. There's no accounting for skill level on a PUG, and not everyone is running steamrollers.
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Originally Posted by brophog02
If you have multiple trollers, you have plenty of holds to go around for a couple of bosses........plus everything is going to be dead before those bosses have a chance to do much. It is still a non-issue then.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Ok but once you get to that point all I'm saying is you would have done better to replace one of them with a Blaster. And I don't know what you mean by "multiple trollers." I've seen plenty of teams with as many as four or five Controllers wipe. There's no accounting for skill level on a PUG, and not everyone is running steamrollers.
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I have no interest in debating worse case scenarios. I'm quite sure both of us have probably seen combos that should be virtually unkillable find a way to wipe. No amount of theorycraft will change that particular plight. I also do not care about replacing players with other ATs in this particular discussion, which is fairly straightforward and narrow in focus.
The only point I was addressing (nor really care about addressing in this thread) was those situations with multiple controllers (a necessary assumption in this particular thread) who can lock down everything but bosses with tools such as seeds. The fact the bosses may not get initially locked down with those AOE controls should not matter on even decently played teams. Even without the bosses locked down we've drastically cut down the damage potential, with plenty of controls to lock them down as well, and likely a lot of damage focused on them as the primary threat.
It just isn't that important to worry about those bosses in that situation. I would still throw down AOE immobs and concentrate on killing the spawn in the most efficient manner. The pluses in that situation far, far outweigh the minuses. I've made my case there, and have several others.
Tools such as ice slick are very useful tools, but they really take a backseat to other more useful tools, such as seeds. In the event a plant and ice are on the same team, then the ice troller should change up his game and go boss hunting with AA on. No real need to fight over ice slick and immobs when there are other tools available.
This just isn't much of a problem with me in any kind of practical realm. If I'm a plant troller, I'm going to use those tools that work best because they are most effective in the vast majority of situations. If I'm on a different troller, I build the toon as such to make sure I am always of some benefit in the situations I would like to play that troller in. I don't get infatuated with any one power, but instead simply use what I need to use when I need to use them. If I'm on a team where that's never happening or I'm of less than satisfactory benefit (many steamrolling teams, for instance) then I find another team.
Plant Control gets a free pass on this issue because it pretty much can't avoid causing -kb. I think even the pet runs around tossing that out. And that particular situation is why I think Arctic Air is critical on an Ice Controller who runs PUGs.
On the other hand, what I'm always wary of is folks working so hard to be third rate Blasters that they end up making poor Controllers, and a significant number of folks who spam AoE immobs fall into that category.
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I don't have sufficient evidence to agree or refute to that claim. There are certainly a lot of players who don't necessarily play certain ATs in ways that would be most effective. I, personally, think most of the situations where someone constantly uses certain powers (for any AT) is out of sheer boredom, or a sense that if they aren't constantly doing something they are somehow failing.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
On the other hand, what I'm always wary of is folks working so hard to be third rate Blasters that they end up making poor Controllers, and a significant number of folks who spam AoE immobs fall into that category. |
I see Energy Blasters/Corrupters/Defenders, for instance, do it all of the time in the early levels with powers such as Energy Torrent. It may not be the power needed, and may cause more harm than good, but it is what is recharged at that time.
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Arctic Air is unbelievably good. Due to the -recharge it essentially halves incoming damage. And then there's the lovely confuse on top of that. My only gripe is that damage avoided is not really obvious. The Emp defender still gets all the applause for the green numbers above everyone's heads. Sigh. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Plant Control gets a free pass on this issue because it pretty much can't avoid causing -kb. I think even the pet runs around tossing that out. And that particular situation is why I think Arctic Air is critical on an Ice Controller who runs PUGs.
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| On the other hand, what I'm always wary of is folks working so hard to be third rate Blasters that they end up making poor Controllers, and a significant number of folks who spam AoE immobs fall into that category. |
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
I'd also say that you are pretty much missing the point of the controller solo if you don't take the AoE hold and believe it to be worthless. I'd guess that you are soloing set for one player.
My solo controllers (there are lots and I eschew FotMs so there's not a Fire/Kin, Ill/Rad, or Plant/Storm in the bunch) tend to solo with settings that vary between -1/x4 for my lowbie Earth/TA all the way up to +4/x8 for my Ice/Rad/Ice, Plant/TA/Fire or my Hurricaneless Fire/Storm/Stone.
I can't imagine going with out AoE controls nor can I imagine anyone with any experience what so ever thinking that they are useless.
YMMV of course.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson