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Protector Bots each apply a force shield to your other robots for 7.5% each (totaling 15% on Battle Drones and Assault Bot, and 7.5% on each Protector Bot), as well as one force shield on the MM himself (7.5% total)|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
the only other MM pets that make use of defense would be the thugs, the basic punk lacks any defenses or abilities, but come level twelve, the enforcer grants everyone, himself included a +6.8% defense, once you get your second enforcer, you will have a +13.6% defense to all pets
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Also, Enforcers' Maneuvers grants 8.5% defense, not 6.8%.
Also also, Enforcers' Maneuvers is applied to all Thugs in range, not just your Thugs.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Not true. Robotics makes heavy use of defence, through the Protector Bot bubbles.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
To compare, the only other MM pets that make use of defense would be the thugs, the basic punk lacks any defenses or abilities, but come level twelve, the enforcer grants everyone, himself included a +6.8% defense, once you get your second enforcer, you will have a +13.6% defense to all pets, with an upgrade offering a marginal +2.5% tohit buff from each one, and the bruiser joins in things with 21% resistance to smashing and lethal and a small 5.25% resistance to fire, cold, and toxic damage.
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Also, you can really look at MM Primary sets in isolation, you've got to factor in the potential effects of the MM's secondary set, and that includes all sorts of balance nightmares, like FF, Thermal, Dark, Poison. All of which can up your pets survivability is different ways in different situations.
Mind you, I'm not saying that ninja aren't squishy when things go pear shaped, but IMO there are other MM pet sets more in need of help than Ninja (Mercs, anyone? Anyone? No? Oh dear.)
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
I'd say both Ninja's and Mercs need some work on them, mostly due to the Stealting Tier 2 pets, Spec Ops and Mk 2 Ninjas (Cant remember the name 
)
The idea behind them is good, just a bit clunky, especially given how...uhm...'dumb' the A.I in game can be (I wont use a ruder word I get sick of my bots doing things like running up and punching AVs in the face)
Overall, taking time to work on Pet A.I. would probably solve a few problems, but that'd also be rather labour intensive, by my reckoning. (Somewhat ignorant, make that)
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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OH GOD YES!|
Originally Posted by canine
<snip>imo there are other mm pet sets more in need of help than ninja (mercs, anyone? Anyone? No? Oh dear.)
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(Stupid forums, LEAVE MY CAPS ALONE!)
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
While you are at it, can they get the Ninja Run animation?
to 
TO THE END!Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!
With the inclusion of Sniper Rifle in the regular Spec-Ops attack chain and Full Auto and Long Range Missile Rocket in the Commando's, Mercs are fine, in my estimate. They have decent self-protection, and the only thing you could look to would be improvind Serum, as that power seems to have been "over-balanced."
As for ninja, comparing them to Necromacy is a bit unfairl since the bulk of resistances that Necromancy henchmen get doesn't actually matter most of the time. Psi, cold and toxic are by far the rarest of the damage types out there, and while you do see those in Arachnos, by far the most you'll see out of them is Lethal and energy. I can't speak for their attack chains, though, as mine is only 20.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Frankly, the Spec Ops controls really need looked at. They're all but useless given their unenhanceable recharge and pathetic duration. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
With the inclusion of Sniper Rifle in the regular Spec-Ops attack chain and Full Auto and Long Range Missile Rocket in the Commando's, Mercs are fine, in my estimate. They have decent self-protection, and the only thing you could look to would be improvind Serum, as that power seems to have been "over-balanced."
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Plus of course the fact that Spec Ops AI is stupid and just **LOVES** to use them on single targets.
Mercenaries are balanced around having the extra control, but in actual practice that control is completely unreliable, and rarely signifigant anyhow.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
Give Ninjas stealth that turns on only in passive mode.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Definitely this. Mercs mostly need help in terms of offense, Ninjas mostly need help in terms of defense.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I'd say both Ninja's and Mercs need some work on them
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Both sets boggle my mind a bit. Five degree cones and 5% defense values. I really don't know what they were thinking.
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True, though grave knight and standard horde have good smashing and lethal resistances, and I only used them since they were also a melee oriented set with a control-ish third tier pet.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
As for ninja, comparing them to Necromacy is a bit unfairl since the bulk of resistances that Necromancy henchmen get doesn't actually matter most of the time. Psi, cold and toxic are by far the rarest of the damage types out there, and while you do see those in Arachnos, by far the most you'll see out of them is Lethal and energy. I can't speak for their attack chains, though, as mine is only 20.
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As far as mercs go, I suppose I simply wasn't as well informed of their own short comings, this actually having been the first I've heard of it, so to be honest, I'm not sure how qualified I'd be to suggest a change to it, possible no more or less than ninjas, since I have played mercs too, also not to a very high level.
One odd idea I just had was: what if the basic mercs and medic gained the "Nemesis Auto-Vengeance" power upon defeat that applied to all other merc henchmen under your control and yourself?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Honestly, in my eyes, everything wrong with both sets is purely numerical. I don't see the need to add new mechanics. (Even if Vengeance would be very appropriate, considering my Mercs are meant to be Nemesis-esque...)
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To a large extent, yes. I don't know enough about Ninja, but having seen Mercenaries through to the end, I definitely feel a few things need to be addressed.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Honestly, in my eyes, everything wrong with both sets is purely numerical. I don't see the need to add new mechanics. (Even if Vengeance would be very appropriate, considering my Mercs are meant to be Nemesis-esque...)
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1. Serum. At its current numbers, this power is worthless. It recharges far too long, and even when you use it, it doesn't do enough. Just a minute of effective time per 1000 seconds? That's an uptime of 6%, barely. If anything, I'd say cut the recharge to 600 seconds AT LEAST and double duration, otherwise the power is a no-brainer skip.
2. Control effects, yes. Spec Ops control is cool when it happens at the right time, but with ZERO control over when they actually use the powers, they're far too rare for them to matter. And they end up wasting 'em, anyway, so they really don't need to be on that long a timer.
I wouldn't actually complain about damage too loudly. Mercs have a bad reputation as having too little damage to go around, but to a large extent that's poor karma on their part. They WERE very bad in terms of damage because many of the henchmen didn't use a lot of their attacks, but right now, they're not half bad. They're not the best, certainly, but they're above decent.
I wouldn't complain about survivability, either. Being all ranged and with respectable resistances, they do well enough. Survivability comes down to secondary a lot, as well.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It's faster to resummon the Spec-Ops than it is to wait for their control powers to recharge. This is incredibly silly.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
2. Control effects, yes. Spec Ops control is cool when it happens at the right time, but with ZERO control over when they actually use the powers, they're far too rare for them to matter. And they end up wasting 'em, anyway, so they really don't need to be on that long a timer.
I wouldn't actually complain about damage too loudly. Mercs have a bad reputation as having too little damage to go around, but to a large extent that's poor karma on their part. They WERE very bad in terms of damage because many of the henchmen didn't use a lot of their attacks, but right now, they're not half bad. They're not the best, certainly, but they're above decent. |
My only big complaint when it comes to Merc damage potential is the absurdly small 5 degree cone size on the minion Full Auto.
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I hope no one minds bump to this thread, while Mercs do need some fine tuning, ninjas still cannot be overlooked.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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WARNING: LONG POST IS LOOOOOOONG
DISCLAIMER: I am NOT demanding for these changes to be made now, nor even demanding them at all, this is purely a suggestion, and I probably do not even know what I'm talking about, I have made three Ninjas MMs and the highest I got one was 12.
Well, I haven't seen a thread asking for a buff to the ninjas powerset in a while, so that either means that their stats in detailed info make them worse than they sound and people are quite content, or people have simply given up hope.
To review the situation:
Genin have a 5.6% defense to all positional damage types and no typed damage, jounin possess a more formidable 11.2% defense to the positional damages, and the oni sacrifice their defense to the same level as a genin, but also gain 21% resistance to smashing and lethal (why do smashing and lethal HAVE to be the most resisted damages out there?!), and a rather impressive 42% resistance to fire.
To compare, the only other MM pets that make use of defense would be the thugs, the basic punk lacks any defenses or abilities, but come level twelve, the enforcer grants everyone, himself included a +6.8% defense, once you get your second enforcer, you will have a +13.6% defense to all pets, with an upgrade offering a marginal +2.5% tohit buff from each one, and the bruiser joins in things with 21% resistance to smashing and lethal and a small 5.25% resistance to fire, cold, and toxic damage.
All this tends to be further mitigated by the fact that not only do thugs have these eventually gained better defenses, but also possess mostly ranged power sets, many of which allowing for knockback, as well as the bruiser able to keep the front lines busy.
Now there's another MM set that also tends towards melee heavily, and that is Necromancy, it might be a little more fair to compare this with ninjas, both seem melee centered and the third tier pet is control oriented, but the Lich, much moreso, with cone immobilize, a cone terrorize, a single target hold, and a self heal, all with some nasty to-hit debuffs with full upgrades and a 26.14% resistance to cold, neg, and toxic damage. (Though the Oni can still be comparable by virtue of possessing far more powerful attacks) Also, the basic zombie horde possesses a wide array of resistances (26.14%) to smashing, cold, neg, psi, and toxic damage (they're nearly the bane of Arachnos), and the grave knights start with the same number of powers as a jounin, though theirs includes a good ranged attack, and each upgrade brings FIVE new powers to their roster, including multiple repeat powers which allow them to spam hack and slash three times in a row.
Then there's fact that jounin GET A PLACATE, when the MM's pets are supposed to be watching your rear, they placate a foe and give it a good chance of realizing you are the better target, and there's the issue how genin get no model chance with the first upgrade since the removal of their archery abilities, which makes me very sad since that's one of the things I look forward to each time I get an upgrade power. (Also one of the reasons Thugs is so cool and why I was initially turned off from robots)
To summarize:
Ninjas seem to be missing a strong attack chain with their full upgrades, have little defense and only basic mez protections for their role as front line melee fighters (remember anytime you play a lowbie scrapper, stalker, or brute that uses a defense set, now imagine that about twice as bad), jounin HAVE A PLACATE, and genin are missing a graphical change.
Some possible solutions:
Teamwork Bonus- This would basically be a small defense buff to a ninja for each ninja you have out, minus one (a genin could not buff their own defense, for example) and possibly minus two (maybe the oni should not count). So if you have all six of your henchmen out, a genin could gain a +2% to their defense bonus for the 2 other genin out, a +4% for the 2 jounin out, and a +5% resistance to smash, lethal, and fire from the oni.
Additional attacks per upgrade- Have Train Ninjas grant genin cobra's strike and jounin flashing steel. Kuji-in Zen can give genin Crippling Axe kick, jounin gain Build Up, and oni gain Fire Cages or Flash Fire
Straight up Buff- Raise defenses across the board by some percentage, give them a resistance to defense debuff, and possibly protection from Knockback and repel so they can melee with abandon.
Full on Changes to the Powers and Pets- I'm not even going to go over this one, between all the anime, movies, and surprisingly, cartoons and toys too I've seen, ninja could be changed to a whole slew of things up to and including this example genin change:
Jounin: The second jounin you summon will be a Kunoichi, a female ninja skilled in the arts of deception and battle.
Kunoichi stats-
Resistances:
11.2% defense (ranged, melee, AoE)
3. Protection (Confuse)
50% Resistance (Confuse)
400% resistance (Taunt, Placate)
Powers:
Poison Dart, Cobra's Strike, Flash, Smoke Grenade*, Group Invisibility*, Crippling Axe Kick*, Deceive**, Dragon's Tail**, Eagle's Claw**,
*Gained with Train Ninja
**Gained with Kuji-in Zen
Misc change suggestions:
Give Genin their hip pouches for their first upgrade- This is exactly what it says on the tin.
Add some storm powers to the oni or change the description- "Summons an ancient and powerful Oni, a formidable creature who possesses the skill of a warrior and the powers of wind and fire" I see lots of fire but the closest I see to the Wind part is the Rain of Fire, and maybe the wind needed to propel the fire blasts.
Change Smoke Flash- Maybe, looking at it now it doesn't seem entirely bad, but maybe it would be better if it could hide the MM, because for being a ninja lord, you certainly don't demonstrate a lot of ninja abilities yourself.
Give Jounin and Genin ninja run animation- Thanks to Cursed for reminding me, though personally, I don't think it would mesh well with the Oni's theme. (Who seems to be kind of stretch with the ninjas thing as it is)
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