City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

My dilemma with Regen

Airhammer

By Airhammer,
Posted on: 2009-11-04 07:39 in Scrappers

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
Well, first thing, you turned on PvP mode.
I was not aware there was an "on/off" switch for PvP.

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Secondly, you grabbed +regen, which is next to useless for */regen in PvE thanks to the unholy gobs of damage recovery it has
Sorry for trying to play to the set's strengths. Adding two and two together you'd logically assume a regeneration set would benefit from more regeneration...

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you went a bit overkill on slotting CP
Not sure how simply reaching the recharge ED cap in a long recharge power is considered "overkill", but ok.

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underslotted MoG
Well based on what other people have posted in the thread you can get by just fine with 1 slot.

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overslotted BU (the additional 2 slots for that 5% +def set bonus could be switched to your AoEs for Obliteration sets)
Umm..that's a not a +def bonus that's a +rech bonus, you know the bonuses that have the highest priority?

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and, even with your apparent predilection for endurance sustainability, didn't change your slots around to maximize your +recov benefits (PP with +recov procs is delicious).
Again, because of Regeneration being a regeneration set I figured a power that partially increases regen should partially be enhanced for regen, but I guess based on your feedback I should just throw logic to the wind. Plus it's not like I didn't enhance it at all with endurance...

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You know, just as a cursory analysis.
Noted, and just for future reference...you came on a little strong.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post

I guess based on your feedback I should just throw logic to the wind.



Yes, yes you should. Umbral is absolutely correct.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMebs View Post
Yes, yes you should. Umbral is absolutely correct.
Hmmm...

I might have been a little harsh in that last post, but it's really frustrating for me to get advice, put a build together based on that advice, and then be told the build is total garbage...

Plus it just seems totally and utterly ridiculous that a set built around regeneration doesn't want more regeneration...it's just totally illogical and sorry but I'm a logical person.

 

Posted

Actually it is much more logically sound to acquire more defense, more hp and more resistance instead of more +regen on a regen based toon.

Multiple thin layers of survivability work better than just a strong single layer.

Consider that a build can regen 45 hp /sec. Lets assume that you could do one of two things : add 3% defense or add 2 hp/sec more regen.

Next we'll setup the situation : 5 even con minions attacking you with a 100 damage attack.

(50-def)*(1+acc) = 50% CTH * 100 damage = 50 damage per foe * 5 = 250 damage

Assuming the minions do this every 4 seconds that is 62.5 damage per second

62.5 - 45 = 17.5, 2400 / 17.5 = 137 seconds until you die (not counting Recon)

Now lets see how the defense would work:

(50-3)*(1+acc) = 47% CTH * 100 damage = 47 damage per foe * 5 = 235 damage

Assuming the minions do this every 4 seconds that is 58.75 damage per second

58.75 - 45 = 13.75, 2400 / 13.75 = 178 seconds til you die (not counting Recon)


Now lets see how the +regen would work:

(50-3)*(1+acc) = 50% CTH * 100 damage = 47 damage per foe * 5 = 250 damage

Assuming the minions do this every 4 seconds that is 62.5 damage per second

62.5 - 27 = 15.5, 2400 / 15.5 = 154 seconds til you die (not counting Recon)

As you can see, having defense (even at such a small amount) improved the survival time more than some regen buffs would. By reducing incoming damage you make the regen you already have alot more effective than you would by simply adding more regen.

I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
...it just seems totally and utterly ridiculous that a set built around regeneration doesn't want more regeneration...it's just totally illogical and sorry but I'm a logical person.
I wouldn't worry about being harsh. Umbral dishes it out, so I'm sure he can take it.

One way to visualize survivability (thank you Umbral for the visualization) is as a rectangle. The width of the rectangle is damage mitigation (defense and resistance). The height of the rectangle is damage recovery (regeneration and heals). Your survivability is the AREA of this rectangle.

On a Regeneration scrapper, you have almost no damage mitigation and a metric ton of damage recovery. Your rectangle is very narrow and very tall.

Now, your damage recovery is made up of passive regeneration and active healing (or active buffs to your regeneration). On a Regen scrapper, let's say that you typically get two or three times more damage recovery from your click powers than from your passive regeneration. So you have a LOT more height from the click powers than from the passive regeneration.

On top of that, your rectangle has very little width. Adding more regeneration gives you a little more height, but the overall area is barely changing.

So your first priority is recharge, as it benefits you much more than the passive regeneration. On top of that, recharge also affects how often Moment of Glory is up, and Moment of Glory is damage mitigation, not damage recovery. So the more recharge you have overall and on Moment of Glory specifically, the WIDER your rectangle. Wider is very good, as just a little extra width will do much more than just a little extra height.

Once recharge is handled, your priority is damage mitigation - which is to say resistance (Tough, Resilience, MoG) and defense (pools, set bonuses, MoG). These help you widen the rectangle. It can take quite a bit, though. It takes 25% defense, for instance, to double the width of your rectangle. Still, if you get there, you get twice the survivability.

Tough, Resilience, Dull Pain and Moment of Glory help more than the rectangle would indicate, though, at least when things get really dangerous. Damage can come fast and furious, and all of those help you survive it long enough to click a heal or otherwise take care of things.

Back on our rectangle, let's think about Regeneration compared to all other secondaries. Regeneration has the narrowest rectangle, the least damage mitigation. That means that when you add 10% regeneration to your Regen, you're adding LESS area to your survivability rectangle than that same 10% added regeneration on ANY other secondary. So Regeneration, ironically, benefits the LEAST of all secondaries from extra regeneration. That's not to say it's bad, merely that it's a low priority.

"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

Posted

Thanks for the explanation Werner, I think I get it. So basically it's a version of diminishing returns? Regeneration gets enough regen on it's own to where adding more won't have as much of an effect as adding actual mitigation is how I understand it I guess. I just got frustrated before because I was pretty much told I was "wrong" with no explanation, and I guess I'm just the type of person that likes to know why he's wrong.

Anyway, hopefully this build is more in-line with the above ideals...

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Spines
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Lunge -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(37), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(45), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), T'Death-Dam%(46)
Level 1: Fast Healing -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(45), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(46)
Level 2: Spine Burst -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(3), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(3), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Oblit-%Dam(43)
Level 4: Reconstruction -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(5), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Dct'dW-Heal(40), Dct'dW-Rchg(42)
Level 6: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(7), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(7)
Level 8: Impale -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(9), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(9), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 10: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(11), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(11), Dct'dW-Heal(13), Dct'dW-Rchg(15)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(13)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(15)
Level 16: Integration -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(17), Numna-Heal/Rchg(17)
Level 18: Build Up -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(19), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(19), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(31), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(34), GSFC-Build%(37)
Level 20: Quills -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(21), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(21), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Oblit-%Dam(25)
Level 22: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 24: Health -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(25)
Level 26: Ripper -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(27), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(27), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Oblit-%Dam(36)
Level 28: Instant Healing -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 30: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(31), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(31)
Level 32: Throw Spines -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(33), Posi-Dmg/Rng(33), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), Posi-Dam%(34)
Level 35: Resilience -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 38: Moment of Glory -- S'dpty-Def/Rchg(A), S'dpty-EndRdx/Rchg(39), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(39), LkGmblr-Rchg+(39)
Level 41: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 44: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 47: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(48), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(48), RctvArm-ResDam(48)
Level 49: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50), LkGmblr-Def(50), LkGmblr-Rchg+(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit

 

Posted

Easily done.. Here is my DB/Regen which has plenty of 5-6 slotted attacks..

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Everlast : Level 50 Technology Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dual Blades
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Power Slice -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(3), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Fast Healing -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(37), Heal-I(37)
Level 2: Ablating Strike -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(7), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45)
Level 4: Reconstruction -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(9), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(9), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Dct'dW-Heal(17), Dct'dW-Rchg(17)
Level 6: Typhoon's Edge -- C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(11), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(13), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(15)
Level 8: Quick Recovery -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(19), EndMod-I(19)
Level 10: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(21), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(21), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Dct'dW-Heal(23), Dct'dW-Rchg(25)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Run-I(A)
Level 16: Integration -- Numna-Heal/EndRdx(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(31), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Numna-Heal(36)
Level 18: Vengeful Slice -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(36), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43)
Level 20: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 22: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(27), Heal-I(29)
Level 24: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(25), EndMod-I(27)
Level 26: Sweeping Strike -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(33), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(33), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(40), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(42), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(42)
Level 28: Instant Healing -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(33), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(34), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Dct'dW-Rchg(34), Dct'dW-Heal(36)
Level 30: Blinding Feint -- HO:Nucle(A), HO:Nucle(50), HO:Nucle(50)
Level 32: One Thousand Cuts -- C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(39), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(40), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 35: Kick -- Acc-I(A)
Level 38: Moment of Glory -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(46), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 41: Tough -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(43), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(48), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 44: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(45), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45), LkGmblr-Def(46)
Level 47: Resilience -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(48), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(50)
Level 49: Revive -- RechRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
------------
Set Bonus Totals:

  • 3% Defense(Smashing)
  • 3% Defense(Lethal)
  • 3% Defense(Fire)
  • 3% Defense(Cold)
  • 3% Defense(Energy)
  • 3% Defense(Negative)
  • 3% Defense(Psionic)
  • 3% Defense(Melee)
  • 3% Defense(Ranged)
  • 3% Defense(AoE)
  • 18% Enhancement(Heal)
  • 57% Enhancement(Accuracy)
  • 25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
  • 105.4 HP (7.87%) HitPoints
  • MezResist(Immobilize) 6.6%
  • MezResist(Sleep) 2.2%
  • MezResist(Stun) 2.2%
  • MezResist(Terrorized) 6.6%
  • 3% (0.05 End/sec) Recovery
  • 52% (2.91 HP/sec) Regeneration
  • 3.78% Resistance(Fire)
  • 3.78% Resistance(Cold)
  • 9.38% Resistance(Negative)
  • 3.78% Resistance(Toxic)
  • 3.78% Resistance(Psionic)

The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

Posted

I think you posted in the wrong thread AirHammer....


OP: if you move two slots from Moment of Glory and put them into Fast Healing for a common heal IO and the Regenerative Tissue unique you will get 70% more +regen than using 2 of each defense set in MoG. MoG doesn't need defense slotting .

Also I'm not sure you need the set you have in Quick Recovery and Stamina, Performance Shifter might work better overall.

Aside form that the build looks pretty good.

I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohenien View Post
OP: if you move two slots from Moment of Glory and put them into Fast Healing for a common heal IO and the Regenerative Tissue unique you will get 70% more +regen than using 2 of each defense set in MoG. MoG doesn't need defense slotting
See this right here is why I'm apprehensive to ask for advice at times because I end up getting completely different advice about the same things. So far I've been told to not slot FH, then I get told to slot FH. I get told not to bother slotting MoG, then I get told to slot MoG. I end up more confused than when I first started...

But yeah that's a nice little boost

Quote:
Also I'm not sure you need the set you have in Quick Recovery and Stamina, Performance Shifter might work better overall.
I thought I was using Performance Shifter

 

Posted

You don't need to slot MoG for defense. It gets you way more defense than you will ever need in any situation. You do however, need to slot it for recharge. I agree it can be tough to distinguish between good and bad advice but just make sure you have a complete understanding of what each poster is saying.

Werner, great rectangle analogy.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
So far I've been told to not slot FH, then I get told to slot FH. I get told not to bother slotting MoG, then I get told to slot MoG
The slotting MoG needs is for recharge, not defense. If you can throw in a resist/recharge IO, that'd be good too, as it'll allow MoG to cap you resists. The defense is so high there's no reasonable application for enhancing it further.

Slotting fast healing beyond the 95%ish heal is only for set bonuses, which would be decided after everything else. In this instance, yeah, it's better than slotting MoG for defense. Although, I don't have fast healing slotting with anything beyond the default heal, as the extra regen is like spitting into an ocean.

The thing with not going for regeneration set bonuses on a regen scrapper is that for each bit of regeneration you have, each additional bit means relatively less and less. It's like bribing Bill Gates with a $50. Defense and resistance, on the other hand, means more and more with each bit you get.

That, and all the regeneration in the world won't save you if three crey power tanks thunderstrike you at the same time.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
One way to visualize survivability (thank you Umbral for the visualization) is as a rectangle. The width of the rectangle is damage mitigation (defense and resistance). The height of the rectangle is damage recovery (regeneration and heals). Your survivability is the AREA of this rectangle.
Was that a copy-paste of my rectangle visualization or just a very similar rewrite? Some of it sounded like me, but I'm not entirely sure.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
I was not aware there was an "on/off" switch for PvP.
In Mids', at the top right, there are 3 buttons: "Mode: PvE/PvP", "Recipes:On/Off", and "Pop-Up:On/Off". If you have PvP mode turned on, you use PvP values rather than PvE values. PvP values are significantly different, which is why your build was showing ~30% +res to all damage types, when you should have had almost none.

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Not sure how simply reaching the recharge ED cap in a long recharge power is considered "overkill", but ok.
You went "overkill" on it because you shouldn't need it that often. You could use the same logic for slotting Revive for +rech if you every took it because it has a 300 second recharge time. Just because it's on a long recharge doesn't necessarily mean that you need to slot the bejeesus out of it.

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Well based on what other people have posted in the thread you can get by just fine with 1 slot.
And whenever I see those builds, I /facepalm because they're completely undervaluing the incredible benefits of MoG. I wouldn't consider any of the builds mentioned optimized for survival (especially since so many of them decided to slot up either FH or Health, for whatever reason).

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Umm..that's a not a +def bonus that's a +rech bonus, you know the bonuses that have the highest priority?
Yeah, I had a typo there. Meant to say +rech set bonus. Of course, if you followed my advice you'd actually net yourself more +rech because Obliteration has a 5% +rech bonus in there. 5% +rech set bonuses are the most common though. Don't be afraid to get rid of them, especially if you're sacrificing enhancement value to get them. The 2 Oblits in your AoEs and 3 Doctored Wounds in the */regen clickies are bringing you to the rule of 5 without having to place useless slots or mule anything.

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Noted, and just for future reference...you came on a little strong.
I always come on strong, but that's because I'm a forceful personality. If I'm not coming on strong, then there is probably something wrong, especially if it's in a thread concerning something I know almost all there is to know about and feel rather strongly about.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
Was that a copy-paste of my rectangle visualization or just a very similar rewrite? Some of it sounded like me, but I'm not entirely sure.
It was a rewrite of it. I didn't save it and was too lazy to search, so I wrote my own version.

"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMebs View Post
You don't need to slot MoG for defense. It gets you way more defense than you will ever need in any situation. You do however, need to slot it for recharge. I agree it can be tough to distinguish between good and bad advice but just make sure you have a complete understanding of what each poster is saying.
I wasn't slotting it with defense sets so much because I felt it needed more defense as I was slotting it that way for set bonuses/LotG +rech.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
In Mids', at the top right, there are 3 buttons: "Mode: PvE/PvP", "Recipes:On/Off", and "Pop-Up:On/Off". If you have PvP mode turned on, you use PvP values rather than PvE values. PvP values are significantly different, which is why your build was showing ~30% +res to all damage types, when you should have had almost none.
I forgot about those buttons. I guess there is an "on/off" switch for PvP but since I never touch that button I'm pretty sure it's always set to PvE

Quote:
You went "overkill" on it because you shouldn't need it that often. You could use the same logic for slotting Revive for +rech if you every took it because it has a 300 second recharge time. Just because it's on a long recharge doesn't necessarily mean that you need to slot the bejeesus out of it.
*shrug* I'm a recharge junkie. I like to have my abilities back up and ready as soon as possible for the most part. That's just how I like to play.

Quote:
And whenever I see those builds, I /facepalm because they're completely undervaluing the incredible benefits of MoG. I wouldn't consider any of the builds mentioned optimized for survival (especially since so many of them decided to slot up either FH or Health, for whatever reason).
Perhaps those people had a different goal in mind? Survival isn't the only way to play a scrapper. In fact, in most cases I would only classify survival as top priority if you want to mostly solo or plan to play in a group that doesn't regularly have a tanker. Not saying I don't value survival, I'm just saying it isn't the only way to play.

Quote:
Yeah, I had a typo there. Meant to say +rech set bonus. Of course, if you followed my advice you'd actually net yourself more +rech because Obliteration has a 5% +rech bonus in there. 5% +rech set bonuses are the most common though. Don't be afraid to get rid of them, especially if you're sacrificing enhancement value to get them. The 2 Oblits in your AoEs and 3 Doctored Wounds in the */regen clickies are bringing you to the rule of 5 without having to place useless slots or mule anything.
Yeah, I did slot Oblits instead and I do reach the 5 set max pretty easily, so I switched BU to GSC, lots of pretty defense bonuses

Quote:
I always come on strong, but that's because I'm a forceful personality. If I'm not coming on strong, then there is probably something wrong, especially if it's in a thread concerning something I know almost all there is to know about and feel rather strongly about.
Fair enough. It just seemed to me that you weren't so much giving me advice as you were giving me orders and telling me how to play, and I guess I just take offense to that though that may not have been your intentions and if so then I'm mistaken and I apologize.

 

Posted

Slotting FH is a good idea since it's got a few things going for it : set bonus mule, unqiues mule, twice as strong as health, plays a large part in your overall regeneration. Slotting health is pretty optional on a scrapper, I typically run it with one extra slot so I can fit in 2 numina pieces and then what ever uniques I want.

MoG will do fine on two total slots in build with some +rech and the set bonuses you had worked out to be less useful than placing the slots elsewhere.

I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohenien View Post
Slotting FH is a good idea since it's got a few things going for it : set bonus mule, unqiues mule, twice as strong as health, plays a large part in your overall regeneration. Slotting health is pretty optional on a scrapper, I typically run it with one extra slot so I can fit in 2 numina pieces and then what ever uniques I want.

MoG will do fine on two total slots in build with some +rech and the set bonuses you had worked out to be less useful than placing the slots elsewhere.
At the very least, I'd give it 3: LotG +rech and 2 common rech IOs. I generally give it the 4th slot just to drop the LotG def/rech in there (to bring the rech enhancement into the redzone and net a nice little +regen bonus in the process).

As to slotting FH, you'd be amazed at just how little it does, considering you've already got Recon, Integration, and Instant Healing, all of which contribute more hp/sec than FH ever will. FH is nice... it's just not enough to actually make the benefit noticeable within the confines of the rest of the set.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
At the very least, I'd give it 3: LotG +rech and 2 common rech IOs. I generally give it the 4th slot just to drop the LotG def/rech in there (to bring the rech enhancement into the redzone and net a nice little +regen bonus in the process).

As to slotting FH, you'd be amazed at just how little it does, considering you've already got Recon, Integration, and Instant Healing, all of which contribute more hp/sec than FH ever will. FH is nice... it's just not enough to actually make the benefit noticeable within the confines of the rest of the set.
You say put more emphasis on MoG, others say more on FH. Who is right? neither. It's a matter of personal preference, nothing more, yet you put so much importance on it to where someone asking for advice thinks it's a big enough matter that is enough to make them gimp, when it's not.

Also, you say FH does so little, but when I look on mids' the difference between a no slotted FH and an ED capped FH is about 85% regen, not counting any +regen uniques you might slot in it as well. If you throw in the Numina's and Regenerative Tissue uniques then you're getting close to 200% additional regen from FH alone, and according to my build that's about 1/3 of my total regen. I don't know about you but that doesn't seem very "little" to me.

 

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Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
If you throw in the Numina's and Regenerative Tissue uniques then you're getting close to 200% additional regen from FH alone, and according to my build that's about 1/3 of my total regen. I don't know about you but that doesn't seem very "little" to me.
First off, you wouldn't be getting 200% from FH alone. You'd be getting ~75% +regen from FH (which you have to take), ~70% +regen from the enhancement in FH, and ~85% from the procs. You'd get the same benefit from those procs no matter what power you slotted them into. The only variability is the additional ~70% +regen that you'd get by slotting FH.

Secondly, that's not 1/3rd of your total regen. That's 1/3rd of your passive regeneration, completely ignoring Reconstruction, Dull Pain, and Instant Healing. Just looking at passive regeneration in terms of percent as opposed to total damage recovery in the form of hp/sec. At 500% +regen (i.e. 600% total regen) and hp cap, you'd be regenerating ~60 hp/sec. Reconstruction with 95% +heal on a 20 second cycle (215% +rech) is providing you 32.6 hp/sec. IH with 90% +heal on a 200 second cycle (225% +rech) is going to provide you an average of 441% +regen (~44 hp/sec). Dull Pain with 95% +heal on a 120 second cycle is going to provide another 8.8 hp/sec. In reality, that 200% is actually less than a seventh of your total damage recovery capability.

In comparison to every single one of the other major powers */regen has available to it, FH is pretty much nothing. Enhancing it is simply enhancing that proportion of nothing, which isn't particularly useful when you consider that every single other power is contributing more and that you can use those slots to enhance your damage mitigation capabilities to much better effect.

 

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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg View Post
My Current build on Catwhoorg

Fast Healing 2 level 50 Heal IO
Quick Recover 3 End Mod Level 50 IO
Reconstruction 6 Doctored Wounds
Dull Pain 6 Doctored Wounds
Integration 3 Golgi
Instant Healing 1 Recharge IO
MoG 1 Recharge IO

15 slots allocated beyond the free ones

Skipped
Resiliance
Revive

Comparting to my other level 50 Scrapper who is /SR
3 Toggles 6 slots each
3 Passives 3 slots each
Practiced Brawler 2 Recharge IO
Elude 1 Recharge IO
Quickness 1 run Speed IO

22 slots allocated beyond the free ones
Admitedly 6 of those in the toggles are specifically for IO set bonuses, so dropping the toggles to 4 each puts /regen and /SR basically the same
I've yet to find the need to 6 slot my SR toggles. With quickness/obliteration bonuses/slotted recharge on attacks i've never found the need for the rech bonuses of red fortune when meaning i have to waste all those extra slots, AND forfeit the 14% regen per toggle if so, or a variation of bonuses towards it thereof, to be necessary when comparing attack chains. My SR toggles still only get 4 slots, mixed between two serendipity/lotg or 4 of each one. I'd much rather take the extra regeneration and max HP bonuses than some unnecessary recharge. I don't need the defense bonus of red fortune either, my SR builds are capped without it, and without weave.

OH yeah, and that's totally forgetting that by me slotting LOTG in the toggles, its more spaces to put the 7.5% global, more than your 5%. Though granted i always put one in each passive, and usualy in CJ, but CJ is a better houser for the kimset unique, still leaving 2 toggles that can willingly accept the 7.5% lotg. At best you're looking at one full set of red fortune.

My original SR IO builds did use red fortune, until i got more familiar with IOs and and learned the error of my ways :P

Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental

Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration

Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server

 

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To the OP, if you want a build that is statistically more survivable than the rest, listen to Umbral. If you want a build that satisfies your predetermined "logic" as to how regen should be built/played, listen to the other guys.

 

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Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
First off, you wouldn't be getting 200% from FH alone. You'd be getting ~75% +regen from FH (which you have to take), ~70% +regen from the enhancement in FH, and ~85% from the procs. You'd get the same benefit from those procs no matter what power you slotted them into. The only variability is the additional ~70% +regen that you'd get by slotting FH.
Fair enough. I could easily slot the procs into another passive power like health and get the same benefit, and if you noticed I did say that the extra regen I get from slotting FH to the ED cap was ~70%, the only reason I included the procs was because FH was where I chose to slot them and if I'd choose moving more slots into MoG I would at least lose the Regenerative Tissue proc so I felt it did bear significance.

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Secondly, that's not 1/3rd of your total regen. That's 1/3rd of your passive regeneration, completely ignoring Reconstruction, Dull Pain, and Instant Healing. Just looking at passive regeneration in terms of percent as opposed to total damage recovery in the form of hp/sec. At 500% +regen (i.e. 600% total regen) and hp cap, you'd be regenerating ~60 hp/sec. Reconstruction with 95% +heal on a 20 second cycle (215% +rech) is providing you 32.6 hp/sec. IH with 90% +heal on a 200 second cycle (225% +rech) is going to provide you an average of 441% +regen (~44 hp/sec). Dull Pain with 95% +heal on a 120 second cycle is going to provide another 8.8 hp/sec. In reality, that 200% is actually less than a seventh of your total damage recovery capability.

In comparison to every single one of the other major powers */regen has available to it, FH is pretty much nothing. Enhancing it is simply enhancing that proportion of nothing, which isn't particularly useful when you consider that every single other power is contributing more and that you can use those slots to enhance your damage mitigation capabilities to much better effect.
I don't really get why you would rate Reconstruction/Dull Pain on an hp/sec basis. They're used to refill chunks of HP instantly, so the "regen" you gain is largely irrelevant, though I understand you were merely trying to compare it directly with FH.

Also I honestly find this all a bit petty. You're continuing to argue basically over two slots that are up up in the air between FH and MoG and in the long run don't really matter, yet you act like if I don't go the MoG way my character will be complete crap. It's basically the difference between ~70% regen and ~5 seconds off MoG.

BIG WHOOP

I get that you probably use MoG a lot and therefore feel the need to slot it, but I'm sure there are other people who play regen too and don't rely on it that much, and might not feel the need to put many slots into it, and yet you "/facepalm" at these people...I know it must be hard to believe that there are people out there who have a different playstyle and overall focus than your own, but there are, and I personally believe it's not only rude but also arrogant to look down on them for not doing things the exact same way as you.

If what I just said wasn't true than you would have posted "do what you want" a long time ago and have been done with it, but because you continue to argue for "your way" then I can only come to the conclusion that your trying to force your way of playing down my throat. I've been playing MMOs for over 6 years and one thing I've found is I hate being told how to play. That's not to say I'm not up for advice or suggestions on things, if I wasn't then I wouldn't have made this thread, but the kind of advice you give Umbral leaves people feeling like they have no other option than what you tell them to do. That's not to say that I don't believe you are a very good and intelligent player or that you don't know what you're talking about, I just don't agree with your form of "advice".

Anyway, I think I've gotten what I needed from this thread. Thank you all for your contributions

 

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Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
If what I just said wasn't true than you would have posted "do what you want" a long time ago and have been done with it, but because you continue to argue for "your way" then I can only come to the conclusion that your trying to force your way of playing down my throat.
I really don't give a damn about what you do. What I have a problem with is you supporting completely and totally incorrect conclusions about powers and what the end benefit of slotting those powers is.

I have yet to say that you must slot this way. I have simply provided the math to provide the reasons why I slot this way and why the logic/math, assuming you're going for an optimized build, that you've applied to your design is incorrect. If you honestly think that it's "logical" that a damage recovery powerset would want greater power recovery as opposed to greater damage mitigation, then you obviously didn't apply more than just surface logic (and thereby are using flawed logic). If you honestly think that FH is providing one third of your regeneration, then you obviously didn't do the proper analysis.

Trying to encourage the same flawed logical processes in others is what I have a problem with. I haven't objected to anything you've said except where you have been explicitly wrong about what is most effective. I don't care if you slot up FH and completely ignore MoG. It's not my character that is being purposefully weakened (especially since you've now been informed why it is a comparative reduction in effectiveness in this thread, as opposed to checking all of the other */regen threads where this exact same discussion has gone on before).

I have a big problem with you insisting that the only difference is in playstyle or preference. There isn't. The difference actually generates different levels of survivability which I have been trying to tell you. If you're interested in getting optimized then you should pretty much ignore FH because it does almost nothing. If you're interested in sacrificing some of that optimization in order to have greater passive regeneration because you don't like using click powers, I'd first ask why you're playing */regen as opposed to */wp and then make sure that you know you're not doing what is optimal. If you're okay with having suboptimal options, then fine. At least you know you're doing something that is less than your potential output.

People should be making informed decisions about their builds, especially IO builds because they're going to be spending so much time/inf on them. Constantly asserting, without any evidence, that there is no difference between two slotting mentalities when it is a known fact that there is a difference is directly contradictory to ensuring that people know what is going on. If you simply stopped trying to prove your point by using loud noises and repetition rather than math, you might start seeming like less of an idiot/jack-***.

It's not pettiness that is making me constantly correct you: it's altruism. Other people that read this thread should know that the option you subscribe to is not optimal. Some of them might want to join you in taking that decision, others might not, but at least they would know what the comparative costs between the two options are.

 

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Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
Also I honestly find this all a bit petty. You're continuing to argue basically over two slots that are up up in the air between FH and MoG and in the long run don't really matter, yet you act like if I don't go the MoG way my character will be complete crap. It's basically the difference between ~70% regen and ~5 seconds off MoG.
You're making the mistake of mixing subjective judgments with objective ones. In terms of performance, getting MoG back 5 seconds sooner off each cycle is very likely vastly more quantitatively beneficial to your character's average survival than 70% more regen.

What you're arguing, rather vehemently, is that you may not care about this distinction. That's not the same as the absolute claim that the distinction does not matter. It matters if you're really seriously interested in how to be absolutely optimal about your character's survival.

Note that there's a significant distinction here between this and some similar types of debates. For example, if people were advising you to skimp on, say, your attacks because you could use that to improve your total mitigation, that's a far more subjective trade-off. Not only might it actually have measurable negative impact on your overall survival (often victory is about the race to see who is defeated first), it might conflict with the idea that beating foes down faster is more fun, even if you broke even on victory criteria. It seems unlikely, though, that the kinds of trade-offs being debated here fall under that category. Powers like DP, Reconstruction, MoG and so forth contribute so much more to your net survival than the +regen in FH that even large sacrifices in that power to make small improvements in those others are likely significantly worthwhile. The question then is what would you find so subjectively preferable about slots in FH that you'd be willing to make that decision.

You're not going to win any arguments claiming that such things are not true. By and large, they can be illustrated with simple math. All you can do is argue that you don't care if it's true or not, which seems an odd thing to be arguing, givin the original point of the thread.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

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Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
What I have a problem with is you supporting completely and totally incorrect conclusions about powers and what the end benefit of slotting those powers is.
I don't think I've outright supported one thing or another. I don't think I really can what with my Spines/Regen scrapper only being lvl 6, and that being the highest I've played /Regen. All I've been doing is asking questions or making counter points in order to get more explanation/information on something I didn't agree with at first.

The best example of this was questioning why you wouldn't want more +regen on a regen oriented set. I now understand why, but at first it seemed awkward to me. Like if you were to make a warrior class in another game it's usually more effective to continue to improve his physical abilities and make him really strong in one field, instead of spreading out his talents and increasing magical abilities as well. Then you end up with a class that's mediocre at two different things rather than really strong at one. That was simply were my logic was coming from about focusing on more +regen. I didn't mean to come off as me trying to claim that adding more +regen was "better" as I was trying to figure out why it wasn't better. Again, I don't think I can confidently say what is or isn't better for Regen since I don't have much experience with the set, I just like to questions things I'm not sure of or don't immediately make sense to me in order to gain a better understanding.

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If you honestly think that it's "logical" that a damage recovery powerset would want greater power recovery as opposed to greater damage mitigation, then you obviously didn't apply more than just surface logic (and thereby are using flawed logic). If you honestly think that FH is providing one third of your regeneration, then you obviously didn't do the proper analysis.
Considering in my long standing time as a gamer and my playstyle revolving around focusing on the main strength of whatever class I've chosen and pushing that single strength as far as it can go, yes I did initially "logically" think increasing regen on a regen set was the way to go. It just seemed like common sense to me.

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Trying to encourage the same flawed logical processes in others is what I have a problem with. I haven't objected to anything you've said except where you have been explicitly wrong about what is most effective. I don't care if you slot up FH and completely ignore MoG. It's not my character that is being purposefully weakened (especially since you've now been informed why it is a comparative reduction in effectiveness in this thread, as opposed to checking all of the other */regen threads where this exact same discussion has gone on before).
I don't recall trying to encourage other people that more +regen is the way to go. Again, with my lack of experience with Regen giving advice on the set would be the last thing I'd intend to do.

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I have a big problem with you insisting that the only difference is in playstyle or preference. There isn't. The difference actually generates different levels of survivability which I have been trying to tell you. If you're interested in getting optimized then you should pretty much ignore FH because it does almost nothing. If you're interested in sacrificing some of that optimization in order to have greater passive regeneration because you don't like using click powers, I'd first ask why you're playing */regen as opposed to */wp and then make sure that you know you're not doing what is optimal. If you're okay with having suboptimal options, then fine. At least you know you're doing something that is less than your potential output.
I've always believed there's more than one way to skin a cat, especially in CoH. I played WoW for 3 years and witnessed many times where people would post a build and the best reply was usually "Nope, it sucks, you'll be gimp. Go look at the cookie-cutter builds and GTFO". I hate that attitude, and I was starting to sense the same vibe coming from you which is probably why I lashed out a bit.

I'm a firm believer that there's more than one way to be "optimal", and it does largely depend on playstyle. What's optimal for you isn't necessarily optimal for me. I've been a believer of that since I first starting playing MMOs.

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Constantly asserting, without any evidence, that there is no difference between two slotting mentalities when it is a known fact that there is a difference is directly contradictory to ensuring that people know what is going on.
I didn't say there wasn't any difference, I just said that the difference seemed so minute as to not really make as much of a difference as you're making it out to be, but that's just my observation. I'm not claiming to be "right".

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It's not pettiness that is making me constantly correct you: it's altruism. Other people that read this thread should know that the option you subscribe to is not optimal. Some of them might want to join you in taking that decision, others might not, but at least they would know what the comparative costs between the two options are.
I think the simple problem here Umbral is that 1) you're mistaken as to where exactly I'm coming from, and 2) you expect that because of your experience people are suppose to just follow whatever advice you give without question. I'm not out to "prove you wrong", in fact I never was. As I said I'm just trying to learn and gain more knowledge by questioning what I don't fully understand or what doesn't initially make sense to me, yet every time I do you're there to make me feel like a fool for doing so.