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LOL...um, no, my logic is that the overall number of negative factors in their ability to tank add to their being somewhat bad at tanking, not one single factor.|
Originally Posted by Calash
By that logic Ice has a huge problem with it's inability to cap Resistance. Not all tanks can, or should, be able to do everything.
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You could say any of the 10 items I listed as not being a factor... for instance, Inv has no psy resistance, though they still tank quite well, but it is a weakness (one that some tanks don't have). I am saying that, fire tanks have too many weaknesses, compared to all of the other tank sets.
A good point was brought up that the set is really a hodgepodge due to development changes and the constant nerfing, especially to burn, beyond the changes with ED and the nerf of res and def. I tend to think that was what has made fire/fire, IMHO, less effective tanks. Give me back burn as a tool without the panic, and some End drain protection (similar to elec), and I would be a lot happier playing them.
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The problem, however, is your metric. |
Originally Posted by Hellwraith
LOL...um, no, my logic is that the overall number of negative factors in their ability to tank add to their being somewhat bad at tanking, not one single factor.
You could say any of the 10 items I listed as not being a factor... for instance, Inv has no psy resistance, though they still tank quite well, but it is a weakness (one that some tanks don't have). I am saying that, fire tanks have too many weaknesses, compared to all of the other tank sets. A good point was brought up that the set is really a hodgepodge due to development changes and the constant nerfing, especially to burn, beyond the changes with ED and the nerf of res and def. I tend to think that was what has made fire/fire, IMHO, less effective tanks. Give me back burn as a tool without the panic, and some End drain protection (similar to elec), and I would be a lot happier playing them. |
Is Fiery Aura weaker at tanking (as in damage it can sustain) than the best ones, like WP, Invuln, and Stone? Probably.
But that's one metric. Can it tank? Overwhelming yes. And that's really all that matters. A Fiery Aura tank can be built to tank anything this game can throw at them. And I would prefer to solo or run with my Fiery Aura than most of my other tanks: and I like them all, really.
That doesn't mean Fiery Aura doesn't have some wonky issues that SHOULD be ironed out (Consume and Burn issues, maybe a little more resistance). It can still tank, though.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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When he implements Diminished returns with GR it won't technically be a nerf to IO's, or defense |
Originally Posted by je_saist
I've seen a soft-capped controller, a soft-capped regen scrapper, and soft capped defenders.
So yes, you can soft defense cap just about every-class. However... there's a telling post by Castle... well, a couple http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...19#post2288719 http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...49#post2288749 http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...63#post2288863 Castle does make it clear that there are no plans to decrease the amount of defense+ IO set bonus's available... but reading between the lines... there might not be any more +defense IO bonus's coming... This doesn't mean that a defense nerf is coming... but I'd be a little surprised if there are not meetings on how to discuss the handling players that are soft-capping avatars to force those avatars into another archtype's play style. |
But when your squishy can't exceed 20% defense I don't imagine that technicality will be all that important.
I don't know if they are going to implement diminishing returns to PvE... those posts also suggest that he wished things had been done differently, as they are too overpowered now... but that there may not be much they can do about it without causing some major upset among players.
I'd rather see some caps set to defense for Blasters, Controllers, etc. than diminishing returns, actually (and yes, I do have Blasters, Defenders, and Controllers... I've found that about 30% defense to ranged is good enough, really, and I'd hate to see that made more difficult by diminishing returns, rather than caps). More in the interest of keeping IO builds diverse and reduce a little of the over-safe nature of some of the overpowered builds out there.
I'd also like to see some resistance to resistance debuffs... not at all sure why there aren't already.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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I haven't thought extensively about the ramifications, but I think I've seen posters say "resistance itself resists resistance debuffs." Is that not true?
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I'd also like to see some resistance to resistance debuffs... not at all sure why there aren't already.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I don't believe so... there is a lot more complaining about resist debuffs on redside, because they are more prevalent (Longbow has tons... I've had Brutes on teams talking about negative resistance, which is ridiculous). The shields in Fiery Aura don't mention resisting it, either.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Resistance resists resistable resistance debuffs. Resistance does not resist unresistable resistance debuffs. Until recently, Longbow Nullifier Sonic Grenades were unresistable resistance debuffs. Now they are resistable resistance debuffs.
Clear as mud!
Edited to add: The reason the Fire shields do not mention resisting resistance debuffs is that this is not a separate property of the power, unlike defense debuff resistance. It's possible to have one value for defense, and another for defense debuff resistance. It is not possible to have two different values for resistance and resistance debuff resistance, because they are the same number internally.
@SPTrashcan
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I don't know if they are going to implement diminishing returns to PvE... those posts also suggest that he wished things had been done differently, as they are too overpowered now... but that there may not be much they can do about it without causing some major upset among players.
I'd rather see some caps set to defense for Blasters, Controllers, etc. than diminishing returns, actually (and yes, I do have Blasters, Defenders, and Controllers... I've found that about 30% defense to ranged is good enough, really, and I'd hate to see that made more difficult by diminishing returns, rather than caps). More in the interest of keeping IO builds diverse and reduce a little of the over-safe nature of some of the overpowered builds out there. I'd also like to see some resistance to resistance debuffs... not at all sure why there aren't already. |
The way I see it. They snuck in ED right in when CoV hit and they have historically done the heavy nerfing/changes when they can be burried beneath new shiny (that's just smart).
Castle has gone on the record several times now stating his dislike of how OP'd some things can get.
DR does effectively put "caps" on things, no matter what you do you can't exceed ~20% def on a squishy in pvp. You can stack FF's, veng, IO's, w/e and it won't go higher.
So DR does put "caps" like you are talking about AND it makes it harder to hit that cap in the first place. ie you need mid 30's for it to come out at about 20%.
I dunno, we'll see. I just don't think they came up with DR specifically for pvp, but rather have been using pvp as a testbed for the pve game. A lot of work went into DR for such a small aspect of the game. Combine that with the powers guy saying he doesn't like things as they are and it causes me to worry.
If they do something big, it will be with GR.
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Pretty much, those are the same issues I would say it has, though I would add in some end drain protection. I wouldn't say it can't tank, but more that the added offense if gives isn't really of equal parody with its ability to take damage (especially with the frustrating way burn now works).|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
The problem, however, is your metric.
Is Fiery Aura weaker at tanking (as in damage it can sustain) than the best ones, like WP, Invuln, and Stone? Probably. But that's one metric. Can it tank? Overwhelming yes. And that's really all that matters. A Fiery Aura tank can be built to tank anything this game can throw at them. And I would prefer to solo or run with my Fiery Aura than most of my other tanks: and I like them all, really. That doesn't mean Fiery Aura doesn't have some wonky issues that SHOULD be ironed out (Consume and Burn issues, maybe a little more resistance). It can still tank, though. |
To sum up, my suggestions would be:
1. Eliminate the panic from burn... it is no longer overpowered with the aggro cap and ED, and doesn't need the panic any longer.
2. Remove the damage from consume, and cut the recharge rate in from 180 sec to 120 sec. Add in 40% end drain protection for 120 sec.
3. Add +5% cold resist to Temp Protection, and remove the unneeded fire protection from it.
4. Up the base smash/lethal resistance in Fire Shield by 3 -5% to go from 30% to 33% - 35%.
I don't think adding that in to the set would do anything to unbalance it, and would still likely leave it somewhat weaker than others in the AT, but not so drastically as it is today.
You still have to sacrifice KB protection, and have no inate defense, and nothing to protect you from psy, but you no longer have to worry about scattering the mob when you fire off Burn to get immobalization protection, you don't get dropped so quickly by Sappers and Carnies (and can recover the end, which otherwise can slow the game down to a boring crawl), and you have a smidge more resistance to the most common damage type in the game, along with helping to cover the cold resist slightly.
Anyway, I have shouted this from the rafters here before, but the only thing I recall ever hearing was Castle saying he was happy with the performance of his Fire tank. In the meantime, since mine is at 50, he sits happily on the shelf waiting for some dev love.
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Castle deleted his fire tank.
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Originally Posted by Hellwraith
Anyway, I have shouted this from the rafters here before, but the only thing I recall ever hearing was Castle saying he was happy with the performance of his Fire tank. In the meantime, since mine is at 50, he sits happily on the shelf waiting for some dev love. |
YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
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Originally Posted by Ice_Ember
Castle deleted his fire tank.
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that explains it... lolz
My one SG cohort uses an assault blaster, and alternates spawns with full auto and LRM, and believe me, short of bosses, nearly everything is KOed. The added damage from BA over any other tanker aura doesn't make any actual difference in how quickly we take mobs down.
However, I usually get hit with the alpha and can often get dropped in a single mob situation, and that is frustrating. Add in psionic mobs, end drain, or heavy knockback, and I am really in trouble.