Do our ancillary pools actually add anything?
By
Col_Blitzkrieger,
Posted on: 2008-12-23 13:38 in Scrappers
See I was annoyed with the patron pools except for Brutes, I that's the problem here, brutes get a nicer option.
I do love Energy Torrent on my Claw/WP scrapper cause the Knock Down lets me avoid alpha's. Am happy with FA too, any more tohit and acc I can get for FU is perfect in my eyes. LBE I don't use cause Focus is much much nicer
Am taking Conserve Power and ET on my Spine/Fire (who needs burn, mobs don't last that long).
I love Dark Mastery on my DM/SR that I spent ages working on a build to get capped def without using fighting, gave up and pestered Nightmarer to find one for me. It works so well.
i've yet to have a scrapper look at the weapons pool and mostly that's on Exploding Shurikan's recharge to damage rate. Seriously, why bother.
There are others that are lacking more though. Dark Consumption for a Dominator or Defender has a 6 minute recharge............. if you can fight solidly for 6 minutes you do not have end issues and thus do not need Dark Consumption. If you cant then you're sure as hell to run out before that. Its god mode penalty for not that much benefit. Add to that Power Sink being available for either with a 2 minute recharge and you seriously start to wonder.
There's nothing in Dark Mastery I'd like to see lost for Darkest Night but I guess there's still space for a 5th power. I wouldn't use it on my Scrapper, well maybe on my Spine/WP cause it would be a good method of herding.
Oh and I haven't bothered with Pet Gaze for a long time on my scrappers cause it doesn't last its recharge and anything it can hold I can either knock down and kill before it gets up, kill out right, or fear depending on which scrapper I'm talking about. I actually place that as being the second least desirable epic power pick for me, right behind caltrops (low damage with fear effect? Gee thanks, I love scattering mobs. If you want to scatter mob and do pitiful damage Torrent does it better)
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
While I agree that not all of the powers in other ATs' ancillaries are perfect, my point is that for a well-built scrapper (well picked powers, well slotted IOs for both numbers and bonuses) the ancillaries dont actually add anything. The ranged attacks are an exception but their damage is pitiful. And as a scrapper you should be in melee anyway.
The ancillaries do have nice powers though, like energy torrent, but that requires 2 power picks to get of which I need none. FA? Nope, set bonuses and kismet cover anything it would offer, and they dont cost any end either (OK, I dont get the -tohit resistance). Conserve? Nah, the recharge is very long and I already can manage endurance through set bonuses and good slotting. LBE? Pitiful damage.
Take for example the squishies, at least they can get a shield out of any ancillary pool if they wish and that's something useful you cant get out of set bonuses.
Although I probably should note that my spines/fire uses caltrops from weapons pool to keep people in burn for a longer period of time. That's the only one of my 6 40+ scrappers that has an ancillary pool power. And often the slows from spines do a fine job keeping them still for burn. Mweh, might need a respec.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
I obviously use them more frequently than you, but only three of my scrappers are IO'd up and of them only my DM/SR has a pool, but he has 3 powers from one.
I think it depends on your power sets though. There is very little I could add that I'd want to add to my Spine/Inv, which is why it doesn't have an epic pool. Where as my Claw/WP can get more survivability from Energy Torrent (which is also fairly good damage) than I would get from Tough and Weave (at leas with how I've been playing it, and I was fighting +7s at one point).
My BS/SR is another alt that I wouldn't think of adding anything. I don't want another reason to sheathe the sword unless it is so good that it is better than either of my 4 attacks. If its that good then its over powered for a pool power.
Mostly I use the epic sets to fill in gaps, but that what I use SIOs for as well, so there will be some cross over.
On the whole I think Defenders and Brutes win out on their PPPs and Ancileries while other ATs tend to either do alright, or not well at all, but thats just from my experience.
Oh and yeah the squishies at least get the shield at the option, though not all of my 50s have a shield I can see that they could be a benefit on almost any combo of powersets
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
[ QUOTE ]
I obviously use them more frequently than you, but only three of my scrappers are IO'd up and of them only my DM/SR has a pool, but he has 3 powers from one.
I think it depends on your power sets though. There is very little I could add that I'd want to add to my Spine/Inv, which is why it doesn't have an epic pool. Where as my Claw/WP can get more survivability from Energy Torrent (which is also fairly good damage) than I would get from Tough and Weave (at leas with how I've been playing it, and I was fighting +7s at one point).
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Sets might have something to do with it, but my scrappers have quite a wide spread across the sets.
50 spines/fire: full set IOs, caltrops from ancillaries
50 kat/inv: full set IOs, no ancillary powers
50 spines/SR: full set IOs, no ancillary powers
50 MA/regen: some set IOs, no ancillary powers
50 fire/SR: full set IOs, no ancillary powers
41 MA/WP: no set IOs as of yet, but no ancillaries planned
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Mostly I use the epic sets to fill in gaps, but that what I use SIOs for as well, so there will be some cross over.
On the whole I think Defenders and Brutes win out on their PPPs and Ancileries while other ATs tend to either do alright, or not well at all, but thats just from my experience.
Oh and yeah the squishies at least get the shield at the option, though not all of my 50s have a shield I can see that they could be a benefit on almost any combo of powersets
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This, I think is the core of the problem. Scrapper ancillaries dont have anything good available in the lower tiers of the epics. Squishies get shield at tier 2, and most of their ancillaries have something useful at tier 1 (snow storm, power build up, fissure just to name a couple), while scrapper epics get the nifty powers at tier 3 (tenebrous tentacles, energy torrent).
I just came to think of this after looking at the build's I've made on Mid's. Only scrapper builds in there that have no ancillary powers at all.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
[ QUOTE ]
torrent (Energy torrent at tier 1 but with less damage
[/ QUOTE ]Just being nit-picky here, but it's not really comparable to Torrent. It's much narrower, does a very minor amount of Smashing damage, and does high mag Knockback, as opposed to Energy Torrent's Knockdown. Speaking of which, Energy Torrent is a -very- awesome power for Scrappers, Tankers and Controllers. Pre-reqs are a little uncool unless you have a thing for eyebeams.
I have one Scrapper at epic levels, but he's a */Fire so Tenebrous Tentacles are a given, really... Also, Dark Blast helps the horrible gap in my single target attack chain. I do use Torrent in indoor maps for bunching mobs tightly into corners for AoE madness. But, again, Darkness Mastery is a pretty obvious match for Spines/Fire...
I kinda like Web Grenade and Targeting Drone from Weapons because 1) Webnades do -Fly AND -Jump, which are sexy and somewhat rare, and 2) TD has a lovely tech feel for Scrappers, and I like the Technology origin. But those are rather personal reasons and do not apply to everyone, obviously.
I think Dark Blast is the out and out winner of the T2s for Scrappers and I use it in my DM/SR's attack chain. Its pure neg en, its fast activating and its a good place for a Thunderstrike set.
Thinking about it more on my drive into work this morning it could also be that scrappers get more good primary and secondary powers and benefit more from other pools. I wanted Weave on my BS/SR so I had to take 3 powers to get it, its not that different to taking 3 powers to get Energy Torrent seeing as I never use Boxing (redraw) and tough sits in my try with a +3% def unique (which isn't really that needed, but seemed as waste to have an empty slot) unused.
How many characters have fitness just for Stamina? So the only power you want being the third power isn't uncommon but there is normally one other power in the pool that you will get some use out of. It just happens that scrappers have a more limited selection. Another epic pool being added would be very nice (personally I'd like a Stone one, but then I also want Stone Melee)
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
[ QUOTE ]
I think Dark Blast is the out and out winner of the T2s for Scrappers and I use it in my DM/SR's attack chain. Its pure neg en, its fast activating and its a good place for a Thunderstrike set.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT. If this was a tier 1 epic power my FM/SR would use it in her attack chain.
[ QUOTE ]
Thinking about it more on my drive into work this morning it could also be that scrappers get more good primary and secondary powers and benefit more from other pools. I wanted Weave on my BS/SR so I had to take 3 powers to get it, its not that different to taking 3 powers to get Energy Torrent seeing as I never use Boxing (redraw) and tough sits in my try with a +3% def unique (which isn't really that needed, but seemed as waste to have an empty slot) unused.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have the fighting trio on 2 of my scrappers, the MA/WP will get it eventually. Also my MA/regen and spines/fire scrappers have tough.
My FM/SR has the same situation with the fighting pool as your BS/SR. I would actually use tough if I just had enough slots (2 more! *sigh*) to slot it properly. Currently it's just a mule for the 3% def IO.
[ QUOTE ]
How many characters have fitness just for Stamina? So the only power you want being the third power isn't uncommon but there is normally one other power in the pool that you will get some use out of. It just happens that scrappers have a more limited selection. Another epic pool being added would be very nice (personally I'd like a Stone one, but then I also want Stone Melee)
[/ QUOTE ]
I actually like all the powers in the fitness pool. Swift is very nice for movement inside missions, I just dont like toggling sprint on and off. Hurdle is great for any jumping character, hurdle (with 1 jump enhancement) + SJ (with 1 jump enhancement) equals SJ only, but with 3 jump enhancements.
Health and stamina on the other hand are just great. Health takes so many good IOs it's almost untrue. Just having it and slotting it with Numina: +Regen/+Recov, Numina: Heal, Numina: Heal/End, Miracle: +Recov, Regen Tissue: +Regen increases your survivability tremendously. I'm not saying though that this kind of slotting is available to everyone, but it's how I slot it most often.
Then we get to stamina. The one power you see on almost all characters. I dont think I even need to explain why I like this power 
Oh yes, and 1 more thing I probably should note. Out of 8 possible scrapper primaries only 3 are "immune" to redraw caused by using the ancillary attacks. Might be a reason for why the ancillary attacks are often skipped.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
I know my claws technically has redraw, but spines and BS are far more annoying so that's why my claws has an epic and so does one of my DMs (I cant remember what I have on the other DM, not played it in a while)
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
It just seems funny to me that scrappers are the only "melee" AT that have nothing "extra nifty" available in their epic pools besides energy torrent and tenebrous tentacles to some extent.
Tankers get powers like fire ball (useful AoE damage), quicksand, stalagmites and melt armor.
Brutes get darkest night and (maybe) useful pets. And maybe something else too. I'm way too lazy to check it today and I dont have a brute over lvl 1 currently.
Stalkers get hibernate and shadow meld.
Scrappers get... Uh, nothing spectacular.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
I've never bothered with the pets on my brutes but the fact they get an AoE imob earlier than TT is a plus for sure
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
Personally i never find any room for them, earlier i planeed abuild in mids(tech hero) and wanted to get targeting drone but whatever powerset combo i choos i could never fit it in.
First off, I apologise for any in-coherent walls of text, spelling mistakes and all that stuff. I didn't sleep much last night and English isn't my first language. Here we go then...
As per the title, do they really do anything? This thought just crossed my mind. I've been doing a lot of builds for different characters lately (existing, planned, friends' characters etc.) and I've only just noticed that I very rarely strive for any of the scrapper epics.
Right, to the point then. Whenever I build a blaster/troller/defender I always pick an ancillary pool. They always give me something the build doesnt yet have, be it AoE damage, control powers (I know scrappers get this too, but with their control modifiers they're often next to useless), or the most important thing: shields.
Looking at the new tanker ancillaries just makes me green with jealousy. Melt armor (okay, not very high debuff numbers but it's still a debuff. Better than laser beam eyes), the frost breath/freezing rain cross-breed power (GIEF!) both look very nice for debuffing only. Then we have quicksand which is way better than caltrops on most occasions.
Scrapper epics on the other hand dont really enhance anything we dont really have aside from dark mastery.
Body mastery isn't really useful. The ranged damage is poor, focused accuracy is very easy to replace with set bonuses and none of my 6 scrappers (5 lvl 50, 1 lvl 41) need conserve power. Only power that's left which would be nice is energy torrent and it is tier 3. Dang.
Weapon mastery has a few useful tools, but again the ranged attacks it provides have very poor damage.
Dark mastery seems like the best choice for ancillary currently. Single target hold (While crappy duration it is the only hard control power available from scrapper ancillaries), torrent (Energy torrent at tier 1 but with less damage), dark blast (An actually useful ranged attack. Although it probably has the same damage as LBE the cast time is shorter and IMO it goes smoother with any attack chain) and tenebrous tentacles (Hello burn!).
I'm not very familiar with villain said ancillary pools but it seems to me that every villain AT has something to look forward to in their ancillary pools. Corrs/Domis/MMs go pretty much along the lines of Blaster/Defender/Controller epic pools. Shield/Godmode/general utility available in their patrons.
Stalkers get hibernate, shadow meld (Gimme this in scrapper epics!) and some decent AoE attacks too. Brute epics look pretty much like scrapper epics... But they get decent AoE attacks and darkest night!
TL;DR version:
Why cant scrappers have epics along the lines of brute/tanker epics? It would definitely be nice to have something to look forward to in the epic pools. Darkest night, the freeze breath, melt armor, decent ranged attacks... All that is currently just a dream for a scrapper. After all, epics were supposed to fill the holes of the ATs; what scrappers currently need is decent ranged attacks and debuffs.
Oh and on a sidenote, none of the scrappers I ever plan on Mid's seem to have the epic pools because often Aid other/Aid self or Kick/Tough/Weave are a better choice than the currently semi-useless epics.
Even shorter version
Give me Darkest Night in dark mastery and I'm happy. Oh, and while you're at it, give us a direct copy from tankers' fire mastery.
EDIT: Spelling and even shorter version added
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein